Kaioshin weaker than base Gohan? Or a Toriyama oversight?

[SuperForteX]

Well I was reviewing parts of the manga to determine the strength level of Kaioshin. Many argue his placement based on 'feat-showings', such as his endurance to Fat Buu's attacks, or his ability to hold Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in place at the tournament.

But I think feat-showings are so fleeting... when we have something far more direct. I noticed this, and it made me stand back and say "huh." Is this a simple oversight by Akira Toriyama?

When Kibito went to heal Gohan at the tournament, it took him a while to do, and he made the comment that "he's still not at full power yet?" Keep in mind, Gohan was in his base form.

Later, Kibito does the same healing treatment to Kaioshin, and it works in an instant.

Does base Gohan really hold that much more ki than Kaioshin?

Or did Toriyama simply "forget"?

[Bussani]

There could be another explanation to consider. Gohan basically had his ki stolen while he was Super Saiyan 2--he was drained dry. Kibito only had to heal Kaioshin's wounds, but he had to completely replenish Gohan's lost ki. One could take more time than the other. Come to think of it, Kibito seems to heal Gohan in an instant after they all Kaikai to the Kaioshin Realm, doesn't he?

[SuperForteX]

He certainly does. In my momentary excitement upon noticing this, I immediatly posted this topic. Then I went back to the story and noticed that a few pages later, Kibito heals Gohan with utter ease.

So the anomaly seems to be the scene at the tournament then.

This just begs the question, if Kibito was restoring the energy that Gohan lost as a Super Saiyan 2, depsite Gohan being in his base form, where was all that energy going?

Does this mean they can access all of their power in base form, even without Old Kaioshin's spell? And maybe it's just difficult and strenuous to do so?

[Fox666]

"Power comparions" are rare for the Majin Boo saga. However, the Daizenshuu states that Kibito would be able to fight Gohan while he was not a Super Saiyan, and since we know Kaioshins is much stronger than Kibito...

[Son_Gohan]

East Kaioshin is stronger than base Gohan, no doubt.

Since he states that each Kaioshin was strong enough to defeat Freeza in one blow.

[Kirby456]

lets see Piccolo during the Cell Games was much much stronger then Base Gohan and Base Gohan got a lot weaker in the Buu Saga. Kaioshin is much stronger then Piccolo. Therefor Kaioshin is much much much stronger then Base Gohan.

[goku the krump dancer]

I dont think its ever confirmed that East Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo at all. Quite frankly I dont think he's any stronger than #16 or 2nd form Cell, I mean by the time the Boo saga and even the Cell saga rolls around "crushing Freeza with one blow" is just as easy as pealing an Orange if not easier for Goku , Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks and Gohan aswell later on. I dont think Piccolo's little bitch moment in the 25th Tournament happened because East Kaioshin was stronger but because of his status as the Supreame Kai and that was also most likely the Kami personality kicking in a little bit. Its like me backing down from a fight against Obama not because he's stronger than me but because he's the freakin President.

[Herms]

Well, when Goku asks Piccolo says Kaioshin is way stronger than him. Though I guess he could be lying to cover up the real reason he withdrew. But I don't really buy that myself. It's supposed to be a real big deal that Gohan and the other Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin, who's supposed to naturally be stronger than anyone from the lower world, so if Piccolo was supposed to be another freak like that I think this would be established more explicitly that.

[Kaboom]

The Daizenshuu do state that Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, to go along with it. Like with the future Androids being inexplicably weaker than the present ones, it seems to be another instance where the info compilers simply took the character's word for it, even though it could be argued to the contrary.

[Herms]

even though it could be argued to the contrary.

I don't think there's anything in the series where someone won't argue to the contrary. Except maybe Goku being stronger than that fish.

[goku the krump dancer]

Oooh okay, see this is why I stay out of power debates.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I remember when I was of the opinion that Piccolo could beat the crap outta of Kaioshin, that Pui-Pui would beat the crap outta Kaioshin and Piccolo, and that the Base Saiyans would give both Kaioshin and Piccolo the Pui-Pui treatment.

[jackjack]

Later, Kibito does the same healing treatment to Kaioshin, and it works in an instant.

But it also worked instantly on Gohan the second time, didn't it?

[BDL]

The Best thing whom I found to prove Piccolo somehow said too much about Kaio Shin strength, is when Gohan had successfully pull up Z sword with his SSJ form.

[SuperForteX]

The Best thing I found to prove Piccolo somehow overstated Kaioshin's strength, is Gohan successfully pulling up Z sword with his SSJ form.

Tranlation provided by Super Forte. Anyway it's arguable about which form Gohan was in when he plucked up the Z-sword. He could have been either ssj1 or ssj2. Just like in his fight against Dabura... * runs away*

[Godo]

Anyway it's arguable about which form Gohan was in when he plucked up the Z-sword. He could have been either ssj1 or ssj2. Just like in his fight against Dabura... * runs away*

It takes a long time for Kibito to refill Gohan's strength after he was a SSJ2.
Yet after he is beaten almost to death by Majin Buu (after he couldn't put any resistance compared to SSJ2 Majin Vegeta), healing him doesn't take that much of a time. I am not sure what this means, but it could be an indicator to which form Gohan had, right? Right?
*runs away together with SuperForteX*

[rereboy]

Anyway it's arguable about which form Gohan was in when he plucked up the Z-sword. He could have been either ssj1 or ssj2. Just like in his fight against Dabura... * runs away*

It takes a long time for Kibito to refill Gohan's strength after he was a SSJ2.
Yet after he is beaten almost to death by Majin Buu (after he couldn't put any resistance compared to SSJ2 Majin Vegeta), healing him doesn't take that much of a time. I am not sure what this means, but it could be an indicator to which form Gohan had, right? Right?
*runs away together with SuperForteX*

No, that is just plot and pacing of the story. Its the same thing as Goku taking some time the first time he powers to SSJ3 and doing it instantly some time later without any extra training.

The first time is meant to impress us but it would become boring if the same happened every single time. So, afterwards it happens quickly.

Its the same with Gohan. "Wow, look how long it taked to fill his power. He is really powerful"; "Ah, Kibito is doing it again, thank god it was quick this time, it has been already estabilished that Gohan is powerful and that Kibito is amazed on how powerful he is".

[BDL]

The Best thing * I found to prove Piccolo somehow overstated Kaioshin's strength, is Gohan successfully pulling up Z sword with his SSJ form.

Tranlation provided by Super Forte. Anyway it's arguable about which form Gohan was in when he plucked up the Z-sword. He could have been either ssj1 or ssj2. Just like in his fight against Dabura... * runs away*

Maybe, but not 50 : 50 ...
And this is why I just still only have 9 post * runs away *

[Son_Gohan]

When Kibito heals Gohan at the tournament, I don't think his statement was pertained to the time it was taking to heal him, since every other time he's used the technique it is shown to be instantaneous. Him saying "He’s still not at full power…This is bottomless power…" may refer to Gohan's Ki in general and his loss of power due to not training in those seven years, as that pretty much becomes a focal point later on in the story.

[Godo]

"Ah, Kibito is doing it again, thank god it was quick this time, it has been already estabilished that Gohan is powerful and that Kibito is amazed on how powerful he is".

Or another take would be that Kibito "wasn't thinking" anything at the time, saving us several panels of thought bubbles and in turn the events seemed to lapse faster.
And also that the Buu Arc in itself is a mess, even though it's entertaining as hell.

I for one welcome our new alien overlords.