Does the Dragonball series treat its women with respect?

[TripleRach]

Someone forgot Ranfan.

Forgot? She was never a main character like the other women listed. But if you want to talk about her, she's probably the worst of all. She seemed like she had some decent fighting skills, and she was probably a good person overall (helping to find sleeping Gokuu). But she was also portrayed as kind of a ditz ("lol i don't have balls?"), was willing to use underhanded tactics (pretending to cry), and resorted to stripping to distract her opponent.

But there is one important female character that people usually seem to forget for these threads: Uranai Baba. She's pretty crotchety, and charges a lot of money to sell her powers. She was also underhanded at times (singing to distract Yamcha). But she also showed concern when Akkuman tried to kill Gokuu, apparently set up the reunion between Gokuu and his grandpa, is willing to give free readings at times (like Gokuu trying to find the Nyoibou), and brought dead Vegeta back to Earth despite being really scared of Boo. She's never sexualized or turned into a background mother, but that's likely because she was meant to be very unattractive.

Overall, I guess I'd say Baba is one of the better treated females in the series, and even ends up as less of a one-dimensional joke than her brother. But I also think it's telling that people brought up a minor character who takes off her clothes before a major character who's old and ugly.

[Eire]

I don't think you guys should blame it on Toriyama being "bad with female characters." Back in the 80s, it was all about Rocky, Rambo, Die Hard, The Terminator, Super Mario Bros., and all that stuff in Japan.

Earlier Ikeda, and Matsumoto gave better examples of portraying women. Admit it: Toryiama couldn't/didn't want/didn't think about making his female characters anything more than stereotypical reasons to stupid jokes.

But I repeat, what about 18 and Bulma. If 18 was so upset about their situation, then what stopped her from getting a job? And Bulma was spoiled but she still is materialistic when it comes her needs.

We don't know anything about 18's job. Having one never means to spot worry about money. Being materialistic is just a feature that's not good, nor bad, but in DBZ the situation where woman worry about the base of Maslow's pyramid while her husband don't care enough repeat three times. Where in DB matrial arts master tells two boys to work hard it's shown as important part of the plot, but later where their wives complain about money (or studies, or anything else) it was intended to be fun. Unlucky, since I got to know that ATM doesn't withdraw money forever Chi-Chi telling about money run out isn't fun for me any more.

[Rocketman]

Look at Vegeta on the other hand;

While not excusing the shallowness of the female characters, Vegeta is the most complex character in Dragonball (yes, I know that's not saying much), most everyone's gonna look bad next to him.


At the same time, "caring little about her [Chichi's] own endeavors". What endeavors should she be doing? She's already a literal princess sitting on a big pile of gold (a pile big enough to feed two Saiyans for two decades) and she's in the top ten of strongest beings on Earth, able to match the guy who blew up the Moon.

[NeoKING]

I don't think you guys should blame it on Toriyama being "bad with female characters." Back in the 80s, it was all about Rocky, Rambo, Die Hard, The Terminator, Super Mario Bros., and all that stuff in Japan.

Earlier Ikeda, and Matsumoto gave better examples of portraying women. Admit it: Toryiama couldn't/didn't want/didn't think about making his female characters anything more than stereotypical reasons to stupid jokes.

I didn't say everyone did it. It was a trend, sort of.

I don't see how Toriyama not being able to write good female characters is even all that much of an issue. Dragon Ball's appeal to me the action and adventure, not how well Toriyama can make all his females complex as Shakespeare. For the record, his male characters aren't that deep either sans Vegeta. It's just simple; that's how DB is.

In fact, I actually like the fact that the women in Dragon Ball are stronger and more capable than you'd expect. Bulma's a genius; Chi-Chi can hold her own as one of the strongest women on Earth; 18's 18; Videl eats grown-up armed robbers for breakfast; hell, even Pan kicked ass in the tournament at the end of Z. Setereotype how?

[MisterFlashdude]

You guys can praise Chi-chi for being "strong" until the cows come home, doesn't change the fact that the only fight she's shown in she's immediately defeated by a breeze. After which, she forces a man into marrying her.

[CatouttaHell]

she's in the top ten of strongest beings on Earth

Son Goku, Vegeta, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, #17, #18, Kuririn, Yamucha, Muten Roshi, Tsuru-sennin, Tao Pai Pai, Yajirobe, Kami-sama, Dende, Mr. Popo, Karin-sama, etc are all stronger.

So no, she isn't.

[Kaboom]

she's in the top ten of strongest beings on Earth

Son Goku, Vegeta, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, #17, #18, Kuririn, Yamucha, Muten Roshi, Tsuru-sennin, Tao Pai Pai, Yajirobe, Kami-sama, Dende, Mr. Popo, Karin-sama, etc are all stronger.So no, she isn't.

Preeeeeetty sure he was making an "at the time" statement. At which point she was on-par with or even stronger than Roshi, who was in, like... 6th or 7th place or something like that. Goku, Piccolo, Kami, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, Chaozu, Chi-Chi, Roshi... Yajirobe in there somewhere... yeah, Chi-Chi's in the top ten.

Anyway, not a power levels thread. Sorry.

[Ahiru77]

Vegeta vs 18 says YES.

[Michsi]

We don't know anything about 18's job. Having one never means to spot worry about money. Being materialistic is just a feature that's not good, nor bad, but in DBZ the situation where woman worry about the base of Maslow's pyramid while her husband don't care enough repeat three times. Where in DB matrial arts master tells two boys to work hard it's shown as important part of the plot, but later where their wives complain about money (or studies, or anything else) it was intended to be fun. Unlucky, since I got to know that ATM doesn't withdraw money forever Chi-Chi telling about money run out isn't fun for me any more.

We don't know if 18 has a job (though I'm pretty sure she doesn't )but at the same time we don't have any proof that Krillin doesn't have one either. He is not Goku and he retired from fighting by the time the Buu Saga started.
In one of the few scenes that focused on the 18 character she was trying out new clothes and complaining how uncool they were. So yeah, single high-tier power female fighter = cares a bout fashion and has almost no interest in fighting

[Bussani]

I wish there had been at least one female character with more of an active role myself, but to be fair, a lot of male characters fall into the same "became useless after this, never heard from again" bin as the handful of female ones. If anyone's going to say Toriyama had it out for women, they may as well say he had it out for humans, too. I mean, yeah, #18 never became anything that important, but what did #17 do? True, Chichi didn't fight much except to get knocked out of the ring by Goku, but how many rounds in the tournaments did Yamcha win?

[Kid Buu]

I wish there had been at least one female character with more of an active role myself, but to be fair, a lot of male characters fall into the same "became useless after this, never heard from again" bin as the handful of female ones. If anyone's going to say Toriyama had it out for women, they may as well say he had it out for humans, too. I mean, yeah, #18 never became anything that important, but what did #17 do? True, Chichi didn't fight much except to get knocked out of the ring by Goku, but how many rounds in the tournaments did Yamcha win?

Topic changed:

Does the Dragonball series treat its humans with respect?

No, Toryiama only loves Saiyans and that one Namek.

[SRB2Unleashed]

Does the Dragonball series treat its humans with respect?

No, Toryiama only loves Saiyans and that one Namek.

Krillin can defend this statement.

[Bussani]

Does the Dragonball series treat its humans with respect?

No, Toryiama only loves Saiyans and that one Namek.

Krillin can defend this statement.

Kuririn--don't get me started on Kuririn. He's killed off twice so Goku has something to get angry about and someone to avenge. My brother and I actually call any character who gets kicked around while the other characters do well "The Kuririn". In fact, it seems we're not the only ones...

[SRB2Unleashed]

Does the Dragonball series treat its humans with respect?

No, Toryiama only loves Saiyans and that one Namek.

Krillin can defend this statement.

Kuririn--don't get me started on Kuririn. He's killed off twice so Goku has something to get angry about and someone to avenge. My brother and I actually call any character who gets kicked around while the other characters do well "The Kuririn". In fact, it seems we're not the only ones...

Krillin started OFF as a character, ended up as a plot device (he was even a plot device when he was trying to avenge Yamcha) then in the Buu saga, was his own character, only to become a plot device, then in GT...he was a plot device and they ended his character on an unlucky note for him.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'd say, apart from Bulma...no. They're mostly all stereotypes. Even Bulma, who had a prominent role at first, is basically the reason for the entire story and helps out the heroes with her invention, is vain, promiscuous, short-fused, bitchy and gets repeatedly felt up by Roshi.

Chi-Chi's entire role is basically a lovestruck little girl who holds a seven year-long infatuation for a boy who touched her vaj, and after that, she plays the generic overbearing strict mother who does nothing of worth in the series other than yell at Goku and try to get a good education for her son, which is probably why, in such a masculine and action-oriented series, she's seen as "the bad guy". Even if she's super-strong, her only fight is against Goku, where she's defeated in one blow and never fights again.

Lunch's good self is a complete ditzy pin-up girl who, at first, is tricked into wearing sexy lingerie for Roshi. Her bad self isn't that bad really. She's not really feminine, sexualized or shafted into the background mother role (well, she's pretty much written out of the story post-23rd TB), the gags involving her aren't sexual and she actually mellows out over the course of the series. She's got a temper, but it's not to the point of being bitchy like Bulma. So I guess Lunch's bad self is the second-best treated female in the series, behind Uranai Baba.

#18's a complete ice queen who ends up settling down out of convenience for a horny loser, and then she's just a background mother who does nothing of worth in the series.

Videl plays the hot-tempered, manipulative bitch, gets the crap beaten out of her by Spopovich and predictably ends up marrying Gohan and bearing his child.

Ran-Fan's a ditzy manipulator who uses her body and the fact that she's a woman to her advantage.

Pan's...meh. She's a brat, and she doesn't have enough screentime to get demoted to useless background character.

But I agree with TripleRach that Uranai Baba's one of the better treated females in the series. I'd say she's the best treated female in the series, because she's stereotyped the least. I mean, yeah, she's supposed to be a mystical old crone, but, as TripleRach said, she's never sexualized (I just put a disgusting image in your head, didn't I?) or turned into a background mother. And she at least does something important at the end of the series by bringing Vegeta back to Earth.

[Ashura]

I think this discussion is a bit of a double standard, because as stereotypical as some of the female characters in Dragon Ball are, there are some outright TERRIBLE men in there, far worse than how the ladies are treated. Even those characters progress certain ways, for better or for worse.

-Roshi himself's whole character is based off of being a lech, and by the time Z rolls around that and poop jokes are pretty much all he's good for since his role as wise old man who trains the main characters has been completed.
-Oolong starts out as Roshi without even the wise old man who's not all bad rhetoric.
-Mr. Satan starts out being a stereotype of a professional wrestler who takes credit for something he didn't do... and I think in the end turns out to be a pretty good guy and a caring grandfather.
-In general, there are downright evil characters who have no motivation other than being evil.
-Even Goku himself grows from being a naive child to being shown as not only greedy but also self serving (letting people live so he can fight them again while putting the entire world in danger), as well as willing to use lecherous intentions to get stuff that he wants. (IE: Offering out Bulma right in front of Vegeta during the Buu saga.)

It's not like all the characters began the series as altruistic heroes. The main thrust of the show all the way through the beginning of Z is is that Goku meets a bunch of bad guys and then turns them into his friends.

I think Bulma in specifics was shown as both clever, smart and caring /as well as/ manipulative and willing to use her wiles to get what she wanted. The second half being something she grew out of as the story progressed and developed... that's a dynamic character. People don't just exist in one way, and they also don't stay the same forever. This series ran so long that almost all of the characters grew in some way, for good or bad. Sure, she got married... but was continuously shown as being capable and takes over Capsule Corp and actually grew out of using her looks for things.

Chichi becomes mother incarnate... The June Cleaver of DB. I would have more of a problem with this if that's the only kind of mother Dragonball portrayed, but between Bulma and Chichi they cover the basis of all types of families. Bulma even covers the strong, single mother role in the alternate timeline Trunks comes from, so DB covers a lot of different kinds of family types, not just one.

I would say that Videl gets the short end of the stick, but she doesn't exist in the series long enough to get the kind of development Bulma and Chichi get.

I don't want to sound like I think these are all absolutely amazing portrayals of women, but I will say that almost ALL of the characters in the series could've been developed better including the women, and that the women weren't treated too badly in the context of the show, its general makeup, and the times it was created.

I actually find it pretty amazing a shounen show protrays so many different types of families.

One thing I will say, though, that this discussion has only touched on; While I don't think the girls in Dragonball were portrayed badly when compared to the men as far as characterization goes, I will say that -- with maybe the exception of 18 -- they were never really shown as being capable of being equal fighters to the men. Or the ones that started out as fairly strong were never developed as fighters to the point that even Goku's friends like Kuririn were. You can say it's a shonen series, true, but Dragonball would've been truly progressive if it had a female main character along the lines of Piccolo or even Tenshinhan. This is something that seemed like Toriyama might've changed if he continued past volume 42, and a lot of other mangaka such as Oda seem to be trying to do. (He also doesn't seem against it; see DB Online.)

One interesting thing to think about is that Toriyama ended the series as though the storyline could've continued. My thought is after the final Budoukai, the implication is that Young Pan could've become the new hero of the series akin to Young Goku and Gohan. She IS shown as a capable fighter, maybe moreso capable than Goten since she punches him out in one of the final scenes in the anime.

[kemuri07]

- they were never really shown as being capable of being equal fighters to the men. Or the ones that started out as fairly strong were never developed as fighters to the point that even Goku's friends like Kuririn were.

But that's the case for almost all of the DB characters that aren't saiyans.

I think it's important to keep in mind who DB is made for: Boys. So it makes complete sense that the heroes of DB reflect that. If DB was made for girls in mind, then obviously Pan, Chi-Chi, 18, and any other female fighters would have been far more stronger than they are currently.

[Kendamu]

What?! A teenage girl uses her looks and vague promises of sex to get what she wants?! That never happens (all the 'effing time) in real life!

What?! A woman becoming a mother?! That's sexist!! And (somehow) racist!! That's just a stereotype! In real life human babies (and their parents) are born every time someone laughs at a gag manga!!

Seriously. What next? "Dragonball is racist against human beings because aliens take the spotlight away from poor Yamcha, who always contributed so much to the comic before!!!"

Not every little series featuring women needs to have them all be Trinity and Laura Croft. Sometimes it's okay to be a mother/super scientist who exploited her sexuality when she was a dumb teenager to just be a woman who works on very important world-saving technologies for the most advanced and powerful corporation on Earth.

Sometimes it's okay to just settle down and be a mother/housewife dedicated to raising her children after being the heiress to a powerful King who got caught up in a few big adventures involving dinosaurs and a whole mountain being on fire before going on to becoming one of the 8 most powerful martial artists on Earth.

Sometimes it's okay to break the bonds of slavery to a mad scientist so yo, your brother, and your new friend can go on a crazy road trip, fight some of the most powerful people in the universe for fun, get chased down and absorbed by a super powerful bio-weapon, get burped back up, and go on to becoming a wife and mother while still having time on the side to enter the world's biggest martial arts tournament and take a fall for the most popular fighter in the world.

Sometimes it's okay to be a high school girl who fights crime on the side and... well, you should get my point by now! They've all outdone every real life man I've ever met.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

^

This is true.

That and Buu-era Bulma and Videl are probably two of the more intelligent characters in the series anyway.

[CatouttaHell]

*Long post*

Wow, I never actually thought about it that way. Very good points.