What if Funimation had adapted names into English?

[GamingBuddha]

Let's assume that when Funimation (or Viz) first started dubbing Dragon Ball, they had perfect translations of all the dialogue and knew every single one of the name puns for each character. What if they had adapted those names for an English speaking audience to understand.

For example, Saiya-jin is just yasai reversed, with yasai meaning vegetable. What if Funimation had taken veggies and made Saiyans into Gievegians (or something more clever).

Anyways, how would you feel if every name and pun was adapted similarly to this, so that an English speaking audience could understand it without knowing Japanese? Would you approve of this decision or be against it?

It seems like it would be a good thing since it would let casual fans know that almost every single character in Dragon Ball is based on a pun, and it would give English speakers the exact same experience that the Japanese viewers/readers are getting. On the other hand, it would make discussion (even more) difficult with all the different names, and it would also be changing what the original is. I'm fairly neutral on the matter, so let's hear the voice of the community.

What are your opinions on the matter?

[Ashura]

DB isn't like Phoenix Wright/Gyakuten Saiban, where the original intent of the story is better served by localizing it in such a way. There are a lot of characters in that game that are named in such a way to imply 'Oh, they're a shifty character' or what have you, and having the names that way wouldn't get that across.

In the case of DBZ, it's not like he's named Vegeta because when you boil him he's soft or, oh, he's a vegetable? He must be braindead. The puns for the most part don't imply traits. I think in all honesty, you learn more about other cultures and deities and things with Dragonball localized as it is than you would've otherwise.

I guess if you go back to the Monkey King roots, the names then become a translation of a translation, at least for some of them. Which makes things even more hairy.

I'm also one of those guys who prefers Kami over God, if only because it inspires kids who might be interested to look up information and learn something about Japanese culture.

[Super Sonic]

Also, Americans aren't as fond of puns as the Japanese are. They tend to look at them as being corny.

[GamingBuddha]

In the case of DBZ, it's not like he's named Vegeta because when you boil him he's soft or, oh, he's a vegetable? He must be braindead. The puns for the most part don't imply traits. I think in all honesty, you learn more about other cultures and deities and things with Dragonball localized as it is than you would've otherwise.

Well the point isn't that it's deep or sophisticated, the point is that it's just there. Casual Dragon Ball fans won't even know that Saiyan comes from vegetables because it's from a different language.

Also, Americans aren't as fond of puns as the Japanese are. They tend to look at them as being corny.

While people might think it's corny, it's still a part of what Dragon Ball is. And casual English speaking fans aren't getting that part of it.

[Ashura]

The point I'm trying to make is that heavier localizations such as what was done with Phoenix Wright do have a place, but it's something that likely would detract rather than add to Dragon Ball in general.

EDIT: Hey, I made it to 100 posts. I'm special!

[laserkid]

I think something like this would have just ended up confusing people, and in so doing not serve to further the fanbase of the show (and from a company perspective make it less marketable).

I mean really? Gievegian sounds like something that would more fit with Scott Pilgrim then Dragon Ball (for the record: I am a fan of both ), and implies more an eating philosophy then a race of super strong aliens bent on conquering the universe.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I have no problem localising paronomastic names that way, so long as it's done thoughtfully. The Pokémon series is a prime example of this.

[SylentEcho]

I really can't imagine Vegeta saying, "Damn that Carrot. Always one step ahead of me." or Kaio-Sama saying, "Air! You must save the Earth, Broccoli is going to destroy the galaxy."

Just imagine other names like Rice or Food instead of Gohan. "Come Rice, we have to distract Green Leafy (Nappa)."

[Eire]

Now you can't because you got used different forms. If you didn't the original forms would sound for you strange and foreign.

Names adaptation used to be a popular translation device and it worked well on some conditions. The person doing it had to be very good at that work that his version would stuck in people's heads. It had to be introduced in first translation and it had to grain popularity (according to my knowledge Funi nor Viz wasn't the first attempt to introduce DB). Also, translations of things related to franchise must translate names as well. The only way that hypothetical DB translation would be successful was to introduce it in 80s. If then in that form it reached popularity it got in later 90s now only the die hard fans would take care of the original.

Edit: Meh, it seems that everyone (me included) thinks that English Dub=USA release. The situation where DBZ become a big hit in English speaking countries, but in every of them the release had different translation policy would be really interesting.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm also one of those guys who prefers Kami over God, if only because it inspires kids who might be interested to look up information and learn something about Japanese culture.

But "Kami" is mistaken and treated as an actual name for the God of Earth, rather than just a title. And, like with Mr. Satan changed to Hercule, FUNimation used it because they didn't want religious parents complaining. Which is why I just go with "God".

[Herms]

Japanese DragonBall contains names that are puns on both Japanese and English words, so it'd be kind of odd for English DragonBall to contain puns on only English words. And then you've got people with Chinese (or quasi-Chinese) names, or who are named for things equally foreign to a Japanese or English audience, such as chapati bread or things like that. Making everything into puns that will be easily understood by an English-speaking audience would make everything far blander than the mix we get in the original.

Take the Saiyans for instance: the name of the race is a pun on the Japanese word for vegetable, but then their prince (and planet and king) are named for the English word "vegetable" itself. So if you changed "Saiyan" to be a pun on the English word "vegetable", you'd have two major names that come from the exact same word.

[GamingBuddha]

I mean really? Gievegian sounds like something that would more fit with Scott Pilgrim then Dragon Ball (for the record: I am a fan of both ), and implies more an eating philosophy then a race of super strong aliens bent on conquering the universe.

Yeah, probably not the best example right there haha. I'd expect Funi/Viz to think of cleverer names than that.

(according to my knowledge Funi nor Viz wasn't the first attempt to introduce DB)

I thought Viz was the first to introduce the DB manga in English.

I really can't imagine Vegeta saying, "Damn that Carrot. Always one step ahead of me." or Kaio-Sama saying, "Air! You must save the Earth, Broccoli is going to destroy the galaxy."

Just imagine other names like Rice or Food instead of Gohan. "Come Rice, we have to distract Green Leafy (Nappa)."

That would sound a little weird, but I didn't think that Kakarrot or Broli would be translated when I first wrote the post. They are both puns on words in English, so they don't really need to be translated. Of course some names like Goku wouldn't really translate well anyways. His name translates to more than "air", right?

Japanese DragonBall contains names that are puns on both Japanese and English words, so it'd be kind of odd for English DragonBall to contain puns on only English words. And then you've got people with Chinese (or quasi-Chinese) names, or who are named for things equally foreign to a Japanese or English audience, such as chapati bread or things like that. Making everything into puns that will be easily understood by an English-speaking audience would make everything far blander than the mix we get in the original.

Take the Saiyans for instance: the name of the race is a pun on the Japanese word for vegetable, but then their prince (and planet and king) are named for the English word "vegetable" itself. So if you changed "Saiyan" to be a pun on the English word "vegetable", you'd have two major names that come from the exact same word.

While both Japanese and English puns are originally used, Japanese speakers know English a lot better than we do Japanese. But it's true that it would make the names much more bland if they weren't as varied.

[Herms]

(according to my knowledge Funi nor Viz wasn't the first attempt to introduce DB)

I thought Viz was the first to introduce the DB manga in English.

Yep, it's the first and only official English version of the manga. There were probably lots of crappy fan scanslations before that though.

[Ashura]

But "Kami" is mistaken and treated as an actual name for the God of Earth, rather than just a title. And, like with Mr. Satan changed to Hercule, FUNimation used it because they didn't want religious parents complaining. Which is why I just go with "God".

How do we know fictional characters are thinking when they address him? They just call him Kami. It's not like Goku and friends show up in the dub with a birth certificate photoshopped into their hands proclaiming his real given name is Kami J. Guardianstein and it has nothing to do with religion. (Jesus, this would make a hilarious Abridged scene.)

There's also Enma-daiou... or King Yam(m)a, which they also mostly left alone. You look that up, and you find all the lore about him. But under your logic, they should be calling Kami God, and... well, back to the vedic roots you can interpret 'Yama' as 'Twin.' So should everyone in the dub just call him Twin? Or call him what he is in DB, 'Judge of the Dead'? There's more nuance to his name than that, and there's more nuance to 'Kami' than just 'God.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami

I don't have the time to do the extra research to verify where they sourced the info from (it just says Ono), but the second line is pretty telling there and lines up with everything I've read elsewhere:

Although the word is sometimes translated as "god" or "deity," some Shinto scholars argue that such a translation can cause a misunderstanding of the term.[1]

Someone more well researched either confirm this or tear me down there, because I know how (not) accurate Wikipedia can be.

[Herms]

How do we know fictional characters are thinking when they address him? They just call him Kami.

The call him "Kami, guardian of Earth". Originally "Kami" is his job title, but in the dub his job title is "guardian of Earth". When Dende takes over the role, in the dub they say he's the new guardian, not the new Kami. This strongly gives the impression that "Kami" is the character's actual name rather than a title.

I'm not actually inherently opposed to leaving "Kami(-sama)" untranslated, but the way the Funi dub handles the matter is amateurish and confusing, and has led to a lot of misunderstanding among fans. And from what I understand most of the European adaptations of the franchise just translate the term out to whatever the native word for "God" is without creating confusion or complaint, so I think most of the hubbub over this issue among English-speaking fans just stems from the way it was botched by Funi (and Viz to a much lesser extent).

[Ashura]

I always sort of took it as Kami-sama is both his name and job title.... much like taking God as both his name and job title, but...

The call him "Kami, guardian of Earth".

I always took that more as them sort of like saying, 'It's Suushinchuu, the Four Star Ball' The idea being that God has many different names or things he's called. (In the dub, Karin also calls him 'The Big Guy' and Goku calls him 'Kami Guardian Sir.' at one point, iirc.)

Even still, I went back and took a look at Dragon Ball episode 125 dubbed and compared it to the subtitles (I've never watched original DB dubbed, only a good chunk of DBZ) and when he explains the origins of things, you're right, they do dub it as though his name is Kami rather than his position. In fact, the dialogue is honestly really close other than subbing in 'Guardian of Earth' for 'Kami-sama.'

It's not so much the part where he says 'My name is Kami, I'm the guardian of earth' but that when he explains how he took over, he doesn't refer to the previous 'Guardian of Earth' as Kami. I think if they would've done something to imply that the previous 'Guardian of Earth' was also called 'Kami' it would keep the way the Japanese one is set up more-or-less while also sort of explaining what Kami is.

I don't see what's inherently wrong with calling God the Guardian of Earth, though, even if it's sort of a really tame way to put it. Kami, God/Deity of the Earth maybe could've worked, but I think God by itself loses some of the meaning implied by Kami-sama. It loses some of the intent in that simplification, even if I do agree with you it's less confusing in a way... if only because is is simplified.

When Dende takes over the role, in the dub they say he's the new guardian, not the new Kami.

My one question; In the original Japanese, do Popo and the rest refer to Dende as Dende or Kami-sama once he takes over? I've only ever read the US manga translations of the Buu portion, and I watched ancient fansubs of the Cell stuff back in the day so I honestly don't remember.

My guess is Popo probably calls him Kami-sama due to how that character acts but the others still call him Dende?

[Herms]

Kami, God/Deity of the Earth maybe could've worked, but I think God by itself loses some of the meaning implied by Kami-sama. It loses some of the intent in that simplification, even if I do agree with you it's less confusing in a way... if only because is is simplified.

You could say that about pretty much any word when translating from one language to another. There's always going to be subtleties that drop out in translation, but people translate anyway. In this case it's really not that big a deal though. Translating "kami" is a lot more complicated when it comes to something like Spirited Away, that's steeped very heavily in a specifically Japanese form of religion, but DB isn't like that at all. And it's not as if "kami" can only refer to Japanese religion; it is the blanket Japanese word for "god" after all. Japanese Christians do in fact refer to God as "Kami-sama" (affixing "sama" generally implies a specific god; it's sorta kinda equivalent to capitalizing "god" like we do in English). If you were translating something written by a Japanese Christian talking about God, would you leave "Kami-sama" untranslated for fear of simplifying the meaning?

My one question; In the original Japanese, do Popo and the rest refer to Dende as Dende or Kami-sama once he takes over?

Both. Goku's entire plan before the Cell Games is to go get a new "Kami-sama". At the 25th TB, Kuririn prays to Kami-sama to not be matched up against any of his friends, and Piccolo notes that he's talking to Dende. Then later when Kuririn is up at the temple talking with Dende, he calls him "Dende" and then instantly corrects himself and says "Kami-sama". Shortly after, Dende asks Piccolo for help in making a decision and Piccolo says "you're Kami" [no "sama"], you decide". Trunks introduces Dende to Mister Satan as "Kami-sama", much to Satan's surprise, and so that's what Satan calls him (though later when he's thinking that everything is just a dream, he says he thinks its suspicious that a little green kid like Dende is "Kami-sama"). Popo always calls him "Kami-sama" too. Gohan or Goku though just call him "Dende". So in general, people who knew him before he took the position typically call him "Dende" (though Kuririn tries to correct himself), while those who only meet him afterward know him simply as "Kami-sama".

[Ashura]

If you were translating something written by a Japanese Christian talking about God, would you leave "Kami-sama" untranslated for fear of simplifying the meaning?

No, of course not; but that's within the context of the writing. I think within Dragon Ball, approaching the name Kami-sama and instead calling him just plain 'ole God wouldn't serve the context. They use names and words from so many languages, so if you're going that far where do you stop? I think that was your earlier point though. (And it is something Funi's not consistent about. They used King Kai and then Dai-Kaiou, didn't they?)

Now I *do* agree with you, divorcing the meaning of the name Kami from 'God' or even 'Guardian of Earth' probably wasn't the right approach. And mind you, I'm not arguing against 'God' being a correct or even appropriate interpretation per-say, just that I personally don't think that going that simple in this instance is the right one.

You could say that about pretty much any word when translating from one language to another. There's always going to be subtleties that drop out in translation, but people translate anyway.

Now here, I see your point and agree. Otherwise you get things like 'All according to keikaku.' I guess the degree of translation is always up to the translator. This is actually a weird conversation for me come to think of it, because I'm honestly very-much for heavy localization if it helps preserve the original intent of something versus just being verbatim and not living up to the original script. IE: My previous reference to Phoenix Wright.

So in general, people who knew him before he took the position typically call him "Dende" (though Kuririn tries to correct himself), while those who only meet him afterward know him simply as "Kami-sama".

That's about what I figured. Thanks for going so in-depth though! This is honestly an interesting discussion. I hope this doesn't seem heated or anything, because I like hearing other people's opinions and knowledge on subjects. Spirited Away is something I've only ever watched once and it didn't make as much of an impression on me as some of his other stuff (not a popular opinion), so that's very interesting to hear.

[Puto]

I will restate what I've already said a few times on IRC. In Dragon Ball, Gokū says a certain sentence that gets everybody in complete WTF mode. Which of these sentences seem more worthy of that reaction?

- #1: I'm going to the Lookout to train with Kami.
- #2: I'm going to Heaven to train with God.

IMO, leaving "Kami(-sama)" untranslated feels more like (often self-imposed) censorship by people who can't bear to call anyone "God" other than the Christian God. To a Japanese person watching the show in Japanese, they're hearing the word they use for "God". They are hearing Gokū say the equivalent of "I'm going to Heaven to train with God." And so, to bring across the same experience in English, I believe that should be translated as such.

[jjgp1112]

How do we know fictional characters are thinking when they address him? They just call him Kami.

The call him "Kami, guardian of Earth". Originally "Kami" is his job title, but in the dub his job title is "guardian of Earth". When Dende takes over the role, in the dub they say he's the new guardian, not the new Kami. This strongly gives the impression that "Kami" is the character's actual name rather than a title.

I'm not actually inherently opposed to leaving "Kami(-sama)" untranslated, but the way the Funi dub handles the matter is amateurish and confusing, and has led to a lot of misunderstanding among fans. And from what I understand most of the European adaptations of the franchise just translate the term out to whatever the native word for "God" is without creating confusion or complaint, so I think most of the hubbub over this issue among English-speaking fans just stems from the way it was botched by Funi (and Viz to a much lesser extent).

The way the dub goes about it is confusing as hell. Usually, they just make Kami his name, yet in Movie 1, even in their in-house version, they actually make it more in line with the Japanese version, where Kami is just the position, not his name.