Super Exciting Guide's power multipliers

[Kaboom]

Another post lost in the ether:

The Super Exciting Guide's power multipliers work for me. Taking into account the whole Kaio-ken x20 and Freeza's full power stuff, x50 makes sense for Super Saiyan. And I have no problems with SSj2 being x2 SSj, because I'm not going to bother thinking about it in terms of battle powers (battle powers aren't even used post-Freeza arc, so they're irrelevant). Evidently, the Super Saiyan Grades would fall in-between.

Super Saiyan 3 being x4 SSj2 works fine for me too. As Kaboom said, it generates so much power that it grabs the attention of everyone in the Kaioshin Realm.

[SuperForteX]

"FPSSJ" is considered a different 'form' or at least a different entry here.


Anyway, to VegettoEX, yes I meant the community on the forum. I should have said as much. It's not always "the haters" as you call them who regularly attack guidebook content. It's also "the Fanatics" as I call them. The people you see on other DB Boards who would go directly into a DBGT discussion topic, or a Pikkon discussion topic, and post "this isn't in the manga. It doesn't matter and it's not canon!"

Thankfully that doesn't seem to happen around here.

In any case, here's at least one example of something Fanatics tend to hate about the guidebooks, that has nothing to do with smashing heads together in a VS. topic. The whole Tenshinhan being descended from aliens thing.

Is it a trival factoid that doesn't really contradict or change anything in the story? Yes. Do the Fanatics absolutely hate this and flame and troll anyone who brings it up with dissmisive and combative attitudes? Oh, hell yes.

Anyway back on the topic at hand. Here is what I want to discuss about SSj. Yes, I understand where the x50 idea comes from, and yes I accept and support that Goku did become x50 times stronger when he battled with Freeza.

But what I question is whether or not this x50 bonus is 'set in stone' per se. It's the same exact increase for everyone who goes Super Saiyan? And if FPSSj is just Super Saiyan that uses up less ki, then why was Goku so much darn stronger than everyone.

If you believe that it is a hard-set multiplier, than does this mean that it was simply Goku and Gohan's base forms that became so much stronger? I mean, at the point Goku and Gohan had mastered Super Saiyan, Goku's power at "roughly half" surpassed everyone else up until that point. He was drastically stronger than Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks. And that was only half his power.

So you're believing that Goku and Gohan themselves became that strong, such that their transformation was still only boosting their "base power" fifty fold? And that their base forms are now "that much stronger"?

Another point of contention is the whole Killi readings in the Buu saga. If Yakon were 800 and Goku was nearly even with him before transforming, but then his killi only went as high as 3000, does that add up with the x50 multiplier? Now, yes, I understand that 800 and 3000 are somewhat just expressions that mean 'a lot' in Japanese. Kind of the equivalent to saying "a bunch" in English, where "a bunch" refers to some vague large number, but isn't technically defined.

This being said, this topic can also be considered two rolled up into one. Because if you believe the x50 multiplier is set in stone and is the same for everyone, then does that mean you're also accepting that the base forms of the Saiyans have become "that much stronger" where their Super Saiyan forms are now stronger than the Cyborgs, so that their base forms could easily thrash Freeza?

In this sense there is yet a third facet of this discussion: Is it feasable indeed that the base Saiyans also became stronger than Piccolo?

[Kaboom]

Because if you believe the x50 multiplier is set in stone and is the same for everyone, then does that mean you're also accepting that the base forms of the Saiyans have become "that much stronger" where their Super Saiyan forms are now stronger than the Cyborgs, so that their base forms could easily thrash Freeza?

In this sense there is yet a third facet of this discussion: Is it feasable indeed that the base Saiyans also became stronger than Piccolo?

Well, "becoming way stronger than everyone as Super Saiyans" and "becoming way stronger than Freeza or Piccolo in their base forms" are not necessarily one and the same, you know. And let's try to avoid going down such a tired route of discussion...

But in general, yeah. I mean, assuming Full-Power Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan, as it's described in the story, then it would simply mean that Goku and Gohan just got way stronger than everyone else overall. Something like this.

Vegeta: 10
Super Saiyan: 500
SSj Grade 2: 750 <---(my SSjG2 multiplier, just for example)

Goku: 40
Super Saiyan: 2000

[Bussani]

But what I question is whether or not this x50 bonus is 'set in stone' per se. It's the same exact increase for everyone who goes Super Saiyan? And if FPSSj is just Super Saiyan that uses up less ki, then why was Goku so much darn stronger than everyone.

If you believe that it is a hard-set multiplier, than does this mean that it was simply Goku and Gohan's base forms that became so much stronger? I mean, at the point Goku and Gohan had mastered Super Saiyan, Goku's power at "roughly half" surpassed everyone else up until that point. He was drastically stronger than Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks. And that was only half his power.

So you're believing that Goku and Gohan themselves became that strong, such that their transformation was still only boosting their "base power" fifty fold? And that their base forms are now "that much stronger"?

I want to say first that I don't have one "belief" that I rigidly stick to, although there may be one theory that I prefer or think is more likely. That said, I have no problem with the idea that Super Saiyan was always a x50 increase and that Goku and Gohan's base forms just became that good. The way I see it is, if Oozaru can be a x10 boost for all Saiyans, why can't these other transformations?

Another point of contention is the whole Killi readings in the Buu saga. If Yakon were 800 and Goku was nearly even with him before transforming, but then his killi only went as high as 3000, does that add up with the x50 multiplier? Now, yes, I understand that 800 and 3000 are somewhat just expressions that mean 'a lot' in Japanese. Kind of the equivalent to saying "a bunch" in English, where "a bunch" refers to some vague large number, but isn't technically defined.

The standard answer is that Goku probably wasn't at full power when he went Super Saiyan, much like Goten and Trunks weren't when they went Super Saiyan for Goku until he told them to go to full power. He was only transforming to create light, after all. Another answer is that the conversion between battle powers and kiri might not be a linear one, and really, there's no reason that they have to be. Personally, I like that explanation because it works with how little I think Toriyama cared whether it made sense compared to previous numbers.

This being said, this topic can also be considered two rolled up into one. Because if you believe the x50 multiplier is set in stone and is the same for everyone, then does that mean you're also accepting that the base forms of the Saiyans have become "that much stronger" where their Super Saiyan forms are now stronger than the Cyborgs, so that their base forms could easily thrash Freeza?

In this sense there is yet a third facet of this discussion: Is it feasable indeed that the base Saiyans also became stronger than Piccolo?

Even if I believed everything above, I don't think it's necessary for the base Saiyans to have surpassed Freeza and Piccolo, even by the end.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Because if you believe the x50 multiplier is set in stone and is the same for everyone, then does that mean you're also accepting that the base forms of the Saiyans have become "that much stronger" where their Super Saiyan forms are now stronger than the Cyborgs, so that their base forms could easily thrash Freeza?

In this sense there is yet a third facet of this discussion: Is it feasable indeed that the base Saiyans also became stronger than Piccolo?

Goku and Gohan had mastered Super Saiyan, meaning no drawbacks. Thus they were able to train together as if the form were their base without said drawbacks and they were able to push their limits and train at a much higher level for much longer periods in conditions that are outside the norm. Because Super Saiyan constantly multiplies the Saiyan's power and they had mastered it, I suppose you could just look at is as their base form training being 50 times more effective. Vegeta and Trunks would only be able to train until the Super Saiyan form took its toll on their body and they had to relax to regain their power and stamina for that higher level crunch time.

Nothing says that their base forms increasing as it did allowed them to surpass Piccolo without using Super Saiyan, as Piccolo could have easily made the same leaps and bounds in the RosaT since he seems to have kept up with Trunks and Vegeta at the Cell Game...and they had seen the path Goku and Gohan had decided was best.

[Herms]

"FPSSJ" is considered a different 'form' or at least a different entry here.

It and the Grade forms are listed there as "variations" on Super Saiyan 1.

[SuperForteX]

To say that it is a varation still implies that it is different.

[Kaboom]

Well, of course there are some big differences, but a 'higher/lower power multiplier' doesn't seem to be one of them in any case. Just like Super Saiyan Grade 3 is a lot different than Super Saiyan 2, but both of them are still noted as going "beyond" Super Saiyan.

[SuperForteX]

Ok, well basically every question I had on the subject has been answered now, more or less.