My thoughts on Chibi Boo and SSjin 3 Goku's powers

[CatouttaHell]

Now, I know this is an extremely controversial topic (and to some of us, a religious debate apparently) but I simply wanted to post all of my thoughts on the matter as dbgtFO did a while ago with the SSjin 2 Gohan/Dabra thing. Honestly, I just want to have all of my reasons for believing this in a single place so I don't have to keep repeating myself at least once a week. I understand I won't change very many opinions about this, as anybody who suggests Chibi Boo may be stronger than SSjin 3 Gotenks and Chou Gohan is usually instantly assumed to be a delusional fanboy, a newbie, or an escaped mental patient. I hope you'll at least read the thread instead of outright dismissing me as one of those.

A HUGE thank you to Herms for his Strength Checker. It was a huge help in this post (as you can tell from all the manga quotes.)

Anyhow, first off, there's two quotes from the manga that people always bring up non-stop whenever any debate like this comes up. I'll start by explaining why they can still logically work with a Chibi Boo > Shin Boo viewpoint. The quotes in question are:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than flees.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

The key words here are "like this." How was Goku supposed to know they'd stop being smaller than flies after they left Boo's body? Boo even suggests that the reason they can't win is because they're tiny and inside his crazy, Boo body that he has impossible control over. The other explanation is that Goku didn't want to turn SSjin 3 to avoid infuriating Vegeta. Don't forget, Vegeta had previously SOLD HIS SOUL just to match what he thought was Goku's real power, and they almost got killed because Vegeta refused to fuse because of his anger, despite Boohan speeding towards them. Goku also turned SSjin when Shin Boo confronted him, instead of SSjin 3. I think that scene alone is good proof that he just wanted to avoid causing more disaster by infuriating Vegeta that much. He DID go SSjin 3 against Chibi Boo later on, but that was only after Vegeta had approved of it.

Now, on to the evidence that suggests Chibi Boo is stronger than Shin Boo and possibly even Chou Gohan. For one, Buff Boo being stronger than Shin Boo is a confirmed fact.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Buff Boo, however, is nothing more than Chibi Boo with the strongest of the Kaioshin inside him. Teen Gohan pulled the Z-Sword out in his SSjin form, which is something no Kaioshin could do. So really, just how could Shin Boo possibly be stronger than Chibi Boo if he's weaker than Buff Boo, who is at most just Chibi Boo with someone a tiny fraction of his power added to him? Buff Boo > Chibi Boo seems to be a universally accepted "fact" but it's likely even THAT isn't absolutely true.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally complete…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The Japanese language has no plural, so we don't actually know if Toriyama meant that Boo's power lowered through a single Kaioshin absorption or BOTH Kaioshin absorptions. Vegeta mocks Buff Boo after he turns into Chibi Boo but he's only mocking the fact that he went from being ridiculously bulky to being short and skinny. There is absolutely no mention of him getting weaker. Neither Goku nor Vegeta could possibly have been basing their statements on Chibi Boo's power anyway, because he'd have to be below SSjin 2 Vegeta for that to be so.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Context: ‘He’s shrunk’ refers to Boo’s body, not his ki.

This very much mirrors the two previous main villains and their final forms actually. Vegeta assumed he was a Super Saiya-jin after Dende healed him and was convinced Final Form Freeza, who was incredibly puny-looking compared to what he was in his last two forms, was nothing to him. The situation with Cell mirrored the Chibi Boo situation even more.

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.2
Context: after Cell reaches finally his perfect form
Vegeta: “Kukkukkuh…So even his perfect form doesn’t look like anything special. He’s even gotten smaller than he was before.”

No mention of Perfect Cell's power, which was enough to tank a kick to the head from Vegeta like it was nothing, is made here at all. Vegeta bases his views of Chibi Boo and Perfect Cell's powers on nothing but how they physically look compared to their previous forms. Both times the villains arguably turn out to be far stronger than they were in their last forms, however. SSjin 3 Goku's power against Chibi Boo is implied to be on a completely different tier than it was against Fat Boo as well. Vegeta already knew of Goku's SSjin 3 but the power he and Chibi Boo put out completely blew his mind.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.6
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Now, people will counter this by saying that either Gohan and Gotenks are dead, or that Vegeta didn't know how strong they were. For the former, Vegeta is also dead and he's on the battlefield along with Goku, Enma Daio-sama wouldn't just refuse to send more dead people to the battlefield if it meant saving the entire universe. For the latter, Vegeta knew damn well how strong Boohan was, and how strong Shin Boo was after Chou Gohan's power was taken from him. Goku's statements prove they could sense his power from inside him. Judging by this, Vegeta should know how strong Chou Gohan is, yet still declared that Goku is the only one capable of fighting Chibi Boo. Speaking of Vegeta quotes...

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Buu with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”

There's a clear distinction being made here. If Goku utilises the full power of his SSjin 3 he can wipe out Boo with his Ki once he gathers it with all his might. However, Gohan and Gotenks COMBINED would only be able to FIGHT, not destroy Chibi Boo. Yes, Goku does find the idea of a Genki Dama crazy, but why wouldn't he? For one, the Genki Dama did not defeat a single canon villain yet. For two, Chibi Boo had outrageous power and it would take an outrageous amount of power and a very long time to create one that big. And all that time they had to somehow keep Boo occupied. He's not going to notice that Goku's creating an increasingly massive attack to kill him and just sit around waiting for it to be done. Goku didn't think Gohan and Gotenks would be able to kill Boo either and he knew their powers already, as shown when he said they'd FIGHT him. It's likely his whole plan was to have them fight while he sat around and hopefully regained some of his strength.

Finally, I'll finish this rant off with some evidence that suggests Chibi Boo is even stronger than SSjin 3 Goku.

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3
Context: after Polunga restores Goku’s stamina and he’s about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama
Goku: “…You’re amazin’. You hung in there really well…All on your own…This time, be reborn as a good guy…I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waiting…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”

Son Goku wants to fight Chibi Boo, much later down the line when he's gotten much stronger. Goku never once implies he has any interest in fighting Chou Gohan or SSjin 3 Gotenks whatsoever, even with his current strength. However, he's extremely excited over the prospect of a rematch with Chibi Boo after he's done a massive amount of training even before he's technically finished his first match with him.

Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6
Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to the terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”

Now, I've seen people counter this quote by saying Chibi Boo blew the Earth up the moment he appeared. While that's true, you also have to take into account the fact that for the entire remainder of his appearance he was interested in only fighting/torturing any strong guys he could find. This quote could just as likely be referring to the fact that they got lucky with the Genki Dama this time, and simply aren't ready to fight guys like Chibi Boo, even with every single one of them there to do it.

Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”

Goku states he'll be training so this time he can fight Boo even one-on-one. At the current powers of the Z-Senshi, nobody is strong enough to defeat Chibi Boo in a one-on-one.

And that's all I have to say about this. I hope the administrators/moderators don't mind this topic being brought up yet again. I welcome any counters, etc to my points but please try to avoid turning it into a nasty debate that would eventually get the thread locked like the previous Chibi Boo/Shin Boo debate.

[dbgtFO]

The other explanation is that Goku didn't want to turn SSjin 3 to avoid infuriating Vegeta. Don't forget, Vegeta had previously SOLD HIS SOUL just to match what he thought was Goku's real power, and they almost got killed because Vegeta refused to fuse because of his anger, despite Boohan speeding towards them. Goku also turned SSjin when Shin Boo confronted him, instead of SSjin 3. I think that scene alone is good proof that he just wanted to avoid causing more disaster by infuriating Vegeta that much. He DID go SSjin 3 against Chibi Boo later on, but that was only after Vegeta had approved of it.

I don't actually think that's the case. After Vegeta broke the potara earring inside of Buu and asks if there's any need to be merged anymore, Goku's reply is this:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s who he means here too.

We know that a SSJ 2 can't do anything to Fat Buu and a team of SSJ 2s wouldn't be able to accomplish anything either, so since Goku only thinks merging is irrelevant, when the opponent is Fat Buu - an opponent Vegeta couldn't beat, it's more likely that he simply banked on his own power.

Also for the idea to make more sense, I think Vegeta should have gone SSJ 2 against Evil Buu instead of simply SSJ. I think it was simply Toriyama saving their best forms for the final battle for the out-universe explanation and for the in-universe explanation it was simply Vegeta and Goku not thinking straight.

[SuperForteX]

Two different ways of looking at it.

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Kid Buu > Super Buu

Overview: The essence of the Kaioshins dilute the power of Buu, thus the purer Buu is, the stronger Buu is.

Chronological diagram
Kid Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
The red bars represent Kid Buu's "battle level". By itself, this is meaningless to us, until we compare it to the other forms.

Buff Buu (Kid Buu /w South Kaioshin Absorbed)
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Absorbing South Kaioshin restrains some of Buu's power. Buu is utterly incapable of interfacing with a Kaioshin, so instead the only influence he has on Buu is the appearance of his body, while diluting the purity of Buu and weakening him. Also, South Kaioshin isn't significant enough a being to influence Buu's mind.

Fat Buu (Buff Buu /w Dai Kaioshin Absorbed ((Kid Buu /w South & Dai Kaioshin absorbed)) )
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Absorbing Dai Kaioshin restrians a greater amount of Buu's strenght, due to Dai Kaioshin being such a devout being. Buu's purity is further diluted, so his strength is at the weakest level. However, for what it's worth, Dai Kaioshin calms Buu down significantly, causing him to grow emotions and a thinking mind/soul.

-Support- Where does this "Kaioshin magic is not compatible with Buu" idea come from? There are a few quotes.

Babidi & Dabura discuss that "[Kaioshin's] power cannot be used to revive Buu." We also know that the power used to revive Buu, is basically power being pumped into Buu's body to return him to full power (Let's not shake the ship up and wake Buu up before he's at full power!) (Don't disturb the ship! Even if Buu wakes up without all the power he needs, he'll still be strong enough to kill us!)

At one point Kaioshin himself may something to the effect that his energy can't go into Buu, but I believe it's just Babidi or Dabura stating it a second time.

Later we see the Potara fusion fail inside of Buu's body. As such, it could be evidence along the vein of the earlier statements regarding Kaioshin being incompaitble with Buu, as such the Kaioshin-specific magic of the Potara will not function inside Buu's body

Moving along.. Good Buu (Mr. Buu) and Evil Buu (Skinny Buu)

Good Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIII

Evil Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Explanation: When Fat Buu was taught not to kill by Mr. Satan, it was because of Dai Kaioshin's influence that he even had the capacity to learn this lesson. However, the inner "Buu" rebelled against this, feeling rage towards the two gunmen, it strived to escape.

At this point, Buu becomes a split being, much like Kami and Piccolo. Neither half is truly Buu, they're just two halves of one whole. They also represent imperfect fusions like Gotenks, since one is fat and the other is skinny. Because Kaioshin magic isn't compatible with Buu, it was never a perfect fusion. That's why Buff Buu looked so big, and Fat Buu looks so fat. It's an imperfect fusion.

In this case their power meter was shown by myself as being split too. The part of Buu's power that was repressed escaped, leaving Good Buu with the tiny fraction he still had control of.

Super Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Explanation: at this point, Evil Buu absorbed Good Buu back in his body. In this sense, he can regain the strength he lost from splitting, but the evil side of his personality will dominate the good side, so he won't have to spare those he wants dead anymore. In addition, his power is greater because the influence of the Kaioshins existed in a majority in Good Buu when he split, so now he's only 'indirectly' influenced by them. As such, he's less diluted, so his power is higher. He's still not as high as Kid or Buff Buu though, but he's the strongest Buu since them.

Strength comparison diagram
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kid Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Buff Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Super Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Evil Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Buu / Fat Buu (same strength)

Review

As you can see, this satisfies all direct statements in the manga. Buff Buu > Super Buu (Isn't his power instead rising?), Super Buu > Fat Buu (In every way he is more powerful, and more suited to fighting), and Evil Buu & Kid Buu both being > Fat Buu (Both fought him, and both won.)

Cleanup

But wait, what about such and such argument against this case?

Goku was afraid to go outside and fight Super Buu, demanding fusion to stand a chance. Later he embraced the idea of fighting Kid Buu without fusion, and was confident he'd win solo. COUNTER: Goku was actually equally unconfident that he could beat either Super or Kid Buu. In Super Buu's case, he had the safety of his family to be concerned with, so he could take NO chances. In Kid Buu's case, he still wanted to hide out on Kaioshin Kai and come up with a plan before engaging. Unlike the anime, in the manga, Kid Buu randomly appeared and frightened them, forcing them into the combat which Goku wished to avoid while they came up with a plan. Also, later during the fight, Goku stated that he regretted crushing the Potara and he was trying to act too cool in doing so.

But no one ever said he was the strongest, only the most troublesome. Clearly Akira Toriyama is telling us something by avoiding terms like "stronger", which would normally be a given for usage in this story. COUNTER: Typically, in Dragon Ball, the mo-most troublesome IS the strongest one. Also, from an out-of-universe standpoint, Toriyama had typically made the smaller form of a villain the strongest. Vegeta was smaller than Nappa. Cell and Frieza both got smaller in their final forms, both of which were commented on by characters. Also, typically, the last villain they fight at the end of a story arc has every other time been the strongest. So Kid Buu being stronger than the rest follow all of those caveats.

Didn't Goku and Vegeta laugh when Kid Buu appears? Yeah, some fearsome power... COUNTER: clearly they were laughing at Buu's size alone. Clearly, whenever they saw Buu form his mega attack, they paniced. Goku stated "We could never stop that." So, them laughing originally was a nervous hopeful mistake, one they soon reneged.

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Super Buu > Kid Buu

Overview: The more beings Buu has absorbed, typically the stronger Buu gets. With the one exception of Dai Kaioshin, who was a unique, special-case scenario.

Chronological diagram

Kid Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
The red bars represent Kid Buu's "battle level". By itself, this is meaningless to us, until we compare it to the other forms.

Buff Buu (Kid Buu with South Kaioshin absorbed)
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Kid Buu absorbs South Kaioshin, and his power increases as he becomes a hulking brute. His power increases, obviously, because he absorbed a being into him. Also with lack of plural, we don't really KNOW that it was BOTH absorptions that made Buu 'weaker' (the term weaker is never used), so it's safer to assume it made him stronger.

Fat Buu (Buff Buu /w Dai Kaioshin absorbed ((Kid Buu /w South & Dai Kaioshins absorbed)) )
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Enter the power ceiling theory. In this case, the entire bar represents Buu's "full power", which again, has gone UP, because he absorbed a being. However, unlike South Kaioshin, Dai Kaioshin's good nature made Buu calm down. So, the red part of the bar represents Buu's new "base" power level, and that red can only shoot up during moments of rage. For the most part, Buu is calmer and SEEMS weaker. But Fat Buu has the highest power ceiling of all.

-Support- But I thought absorbing Dai Kaioshin made Buu weaker?

Technically, it was said it calmed him down and made him easier to control. It never said it actually made him weaker. In any case, it somewhat did make him weaker, in that he only has access to a small portion of his power now, while only tapping into the extra power in moments of extreem rage and duress. In this sense, he indeed "feels a lot weaker" while actually having a higher maximum.

Also, you'll note, that when Buu absorbed every other character, his power most certainly increased, so why would it be different for the Kaioshin people? Only Dai Kaioshin was stated to have a negative effect, lack of plural/singular nouns aside, there's just no evidence that absorbing South Kaioshin made him weaker.

Moving along.. Good Buu (Mr. Buu) and Evil Buu (Skinny Buu)

Good Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Evil Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Explanation: When Fat Buu was taught not to kill by Mr. Satan, it was because of Dai Kaioshin's influence that he even had the capacity to learn this lesson. However, the inner "Buu" rebelled against this, feeling rage towards the two gunmen, it strived to escape.

At this point, Buu becomes a split being, much like Kami and Piccolo. Neither half is truly Buu, they're just two halves of one whole. They also represent imperfect fusions like Gotenks, since one is fat and the other is skinny. As you can see, Good Buu is left with Fat Buu's base power as his maximum, while Evil Buu has all the power that escaped.

Please note, Evil Buu is dead equal to Kid Buu above! NOT a coincidence!

Super Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
EXPLANATION: Super Buu is Evil Buu /w Good Buu absorbed. In this sense, Buu has regained the full power ceiling he had as Fat Buu, but has access to more of this power. At this point, Super Buu is the strongest Buu who's ever been, aside from Buff Buu. The reason is, he still has a LITTLE bit of Dai Kaioshin's influence in him, through his Good Buu absorption. So he's stronger than Kid Buu, but still slightly weaker than Buff Buu.

Strength Comparsion Diagram
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Buff Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Super Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Evil Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kid Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fat Buu
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Buu

Review

Buff Buu is the one with the most strength, but the one with arguably the most potential is Super Buu, as seen in a moment of rage when his scream shattered the dimensional barrier in the RoSaT. Fat Buu also had a moment of rage when he briefly went beast-mode on Vegeta, and when his rage caused him to somewhat hurt SSj3 Goku. Evil and Kid Buu are essentially the same strength, because they're essentially the same thing "the pure part of Buu's evil." While Good Buu (Mr. Buu) is seperate from Fat Buu and has far less power than any... a pitiful Buu hardly any stronger than an SSj2.

Kid Buu is nothing special, being weaker than both Super and Buff Buu, by enough where Goku can beat Kid Buu one on one in the right conditions, but only just barely, since he's dead equal to him. Therefore, Super Buu is "out of Goku's league", thus meaning that Goku would never be able to beat him.

Cleaup

But wait, what about such and such argument against this case.

But Gotenks and Gohan wouldn't have been enough to make a difference in the fight COUNTER: Actually, no one ever said Gotenks and Gohan weren't brought to Kaioshin Kai because they wouldn't be able to help. Goku asked if that was Vegeta's idea, but Vegeta said it wasn't, instead saying it would be right for the Earthlings to save themselves. No one ever said the idea wouldn't have worked.

But Gohan's energy in the spirit bomb wasn't enough to destroy Kid Buu, they still needed so much more energy, and Gohan > Super Buu, so Kid Buu must be > Super Buu COUNTER: Actually, thanks to the Super Exciting Guide interview, we now know that Akira Toiryama differentiates between GENKI and KI, and what the Genki Dama collects is GENKI. Genki is just one part of a larger whole thats up one's ki. So what Gohan and the others donated is not the equivalent of sending all their ki. Furthremore, Gohan was seen flying and being perfectly fine after donating, so presumably he didn't even give that MUCH, compared to other characters who were shown dropping form exhaustion after donating all they had...

But they said the fate of the universe depending on this fight. If Gohan and Gotenks could have killed Kid Buu at any time, why was Goku VS. Buu such a big deal? COUNTER: This is just dramatic purposes. Also from an in-universe standpoint, it could mean any number of things. Buu might have gone on a rampage destroying worlds before Gohan or Gotenks could ever catch up to him. He could have stayed at the Kaioshin kai and wrecked Other World too, which could be chaotic and very bad. Buu had to be stopped then and there, this is why it's such a big deal

But the last villain ahs always been the strongest... COUNTER: What about Oozaru Vegeta? Then he gets weaker at the last phase of the fight. It makes sense, the fiasco inside Buu's body was meant to weaken Buu to a point where he could finally be defeated. Plus there's no spoken or stated rule about the last form always having to be the strongest. It's not a rule to live by.

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Conclusion


This is far from every argument for those two prespectives, and it's FAAAR from being the only two prespectives that exist. There are Super Buu supporters who don't accept the power ceiling theory, and there are Kid Buu supporters who do. There are people who have either Super or Kid Buu being superior who have the strength levels of the different forms in different orders alltogether.

There is just so much to consider on this subject. It's nearly impossible to account for every single argument ever used.

As for the ones you used in your post, I can't say I'm a fan of them. The whole "Goku meant like this, as in how small they are" just feels like reaching for straws. I think, as shown above, you can still build a very strong case for Kid Buu being stronger without having to resort to such claims.

Anyway, let's prove VegettoEX wrong, in the sense that he said he was convinced no one ever wanted to have an actual conversation about the strength of Buu's various forms compared to eachother.

Let's keep this civil, and clean! I hope a lot of refutable users participate in here. Maybe the way I layed it out will inspire others to share their own personal interpretations.

You know what I think would be neat? If instead of debating or even discussing the matter, everyone instead just posted their own personal opinions. I mean, everyone has to have an opinion on this. Even people who say "I care more about the color of my poop on a daily basis" certainly have to have a personal opinion.

I mean, it's not possible to say that "Kid buu is neither stronger, weaker, nor equal to Super Buu." One has to be stronger than the other, right? Or am I wrong in that regard.

So maybe everyone on the whole board can share their own input and maybe one way will make sense to you or me and we'll adjust our own opinions based on that. Amazing.

I'm really looking forward to this.

Edit: Ugh, this took me nearly 2 1/2 hours to type. Yes I agreed to this forums rules, but I pray there will be amnesty for all the glaring typos I'm seeing in above essay. I PROMISE to come correct them tommorw, but right now I'm exhausted and I need to rest.

[CatouttaHell]

I don't actually think that's the case. After Vegeta broke the potara earring inside of Buu and asks if there's any need to be merged anymore, Goku's reply is this:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s who he means here too.

We know that a SSJ 2 can't do anything to Fat Buu and a team of SSJ 2s wouldn't be able to accomplish anything either, so since Goku only thinks merging is irrelevant, when the opponent is Fat Buu - an opponent Vegeta couldn't beat, it's more likely that he simply banked on his own power.

Also for the idea to make more sense, I think Vegeta should have gone SSJ 2 against Evil Buu instead of simply SSJ. I think it was simply Toriyama saving their best forms for the final battle for the out-universe explanation and for the in-universe explanation it was simply Vegeta and Goku not thinking straight.

Fat Boo was a lot stronger than SSjin 2 Vegeta indeed, but IMHO there's a chance SSjin 2 Goku and Vegeta could pull something off if they teamed up. Kind of like how Goku and Piccolo defeated Raditz despite the insanely large power gap. Either way, fighting Fat Boo in just SSjin 2 probably sounded better than it really would've been to them considering the impossibly strong guy they're currently dealing with (Boohan.)

Your point about Toriyama saving their best forms for the final battle is very interesting, to be honest I didn't even think about it that way before. I think it may also be possible that SSjin 3 Goku against Chibi Boo (at his full SSjin 3 power, or close to it) is absolutely worlds above the SSjin 3 Goku that fought Fat Boo. Maybe Goku wanted to avoid Vegeta knowing that he had that much more power up his sleeve, until he realised Vegeta had gotten over his petty jealousy. That would explain their confidence in fighting Fat Boo and Goku's claim that he couldn't beat Shin Boo (though IMO the explanation that they were smaller than flies and inside Boo himself works the best.)

I mean, there's several statements from Vegeta of him orgasming over what kind of insane power SSjin 3 Goku has. I think the fact that both Goku and Vegeta could sense both Boohan and Shin Boo logically says that Vegeta knows how strong Chou Gohan is, but yet he says Goku is the only one capable of fighting Boo.

IMO the best explanation for this is the out-universe explanation that after Toriyama realised Gohan wasn't fit to be the hero, he just decided to give Boo yet another new transformation (Shin Boo was too weak, Bootenks and Boohan were too strong and had absorptions in them, which wouldn't allow for Goku to kill those Boos) and just set up an amazing closing battle between Goku and the final Boo. The way I personally interpret it, Toriyama intended for Goku to be at least on the same tier Gotenks and Chou Gohan are, but just didn't feel like giving him some new random new haxed power-up. He had been working on the manga for 10 years after all, and was finally on the homestretch.

[SuperForteX]

CatouttaHell , I'll be eagerly awaiting you to digest my super essay, since you also seem to be very interested in this matter. Who knows, maybe it'll help you refine your own reasonings or add new arguments to your case. If such is true, then I feel like I accomplished something nice.

[Kaboom]

EDIT: SuperForteX beat me to replying... that's what I get for taking my time, I suppose.

It's some fine theorizin', CoH, and I'll admit I've given it more serious thought than I ever have before. (Just thought, mind). But there's still a few glaring problems.


1) There's the quotes where Goku claims Evil Boo is still too strong for them and then shortly after where Goku and Vegeta claim they can take on Pure Boo. In both cases, it was Boo's level of Ki they were talking about immediately beforehand, and it's not like they would so quickly forget how to sense it and ONLY judge Boo by his physical size, even if that's what they were ripping on him about.

Same with Evil Boo; why would they be talking about his Ki and then suddenly only be focusing on size? Even in the same sentence where Goku says they can't win, he says it's because "he's way stronger than either of us." And of course by context, the "like this" part of Goku's sentence obviously meant "un-fused."

Goku insisted on Fusion here and before because Boo's power was far too much for him, but later had no problems fighting Pure Boo on his own, even being capable of wiping him out with SSj3's full power.

So Evil Boo is still too strong for them to beat, then "Buff" Boo is getting even stronger all of a sudden which causes them to worry more, then... suddenly Pure Boo is much stronger than either of them but they're laughing and think they can win just because he's physically smaller?

I know that it's kind of a "theme" with the final enemies in the Z era, but this would be just too obvious a mistake for Goku and Vegeta to make. Especially when they were both only JUST sensing and talking about Boo's Ki beforehand. I mean, what, did they just somehow forget how to sense Ki right as Pure Boo was formed? Even after Boo showed off his power by destroying Earth, neither of them had any apprehensions about fighting him one-on-one.

In a nutshell: Though possible, it's a VERY big stretch to say that these quotes are ONLY pertaining to anyone's size, and not also their strengths.

2) Gotenks-Boo flat-out states that he's the strongest Boo ever. And we see not too much later that even without Piccolo's brainpower, he knows full well about Pure Boo and what he's like. Was he lying...?

3) There's still all the heavy implications about Gotenks and Gohan. Gotenks was supposedly strong enough to measure up to Boo in JUST his Super Saiyan form. Even if, like me, you don't think he'd be quite up to the task, that would still make him overall much, MUCH stronger than Goku or Vegeta. Fighting Fat Boo was something that would require Super Saiyan 3 for anyone else, which would mean Gotenks' own Super Saiyan 3 is much stronger than Goku's.

The only way I usually see fans reconcile this is to assume that Gotenks gets different proportionate boosts from his transformations than Goku. Which really can't stand, since it's completely unsupported. Never are Gotenks' transformations said to work differently than anyone else's, and we shouldn't' assume he doesn't get the same 50x/100x/400x as anyone else.

Then of course there's Gohan who's even stronger, and thrashed Evil Boo easily while Gotenks barely managed a slight lead on him. The same Boo whom Goku later claimed at least once was too much for him. So there's that.

4) Like I mentioned elsewhere, I think you're reading too much into Goku's comment about bringing Gotenks and Gohan over to "fight." Someone "fighting" can mean "winning" too, y'know. Since Goku seemed to think it was a better idea than the Spirit Bomb, that would mean he thinks highly of their power, and they ultimately wouldn't be much use if they were even weaker than Goku, who just failed to get the job done.

In fact, I get the impression that getting Gotenks and Gohan killed was just a convenient way to get the super-duper-stronger people out of the picture, so that Goku, who had just spent the entire arc being painted as the underdog, could get the final fight against a form of Boo who was also tailor-crafted for his level of power. Having Goku mention them later seems like Toriyama's way of saying, "no, I haven't forgotten about them." Just a hunch.

5) I don't know how trustworthy Viz's translation of this scene is. But even though it's said that the "soul(s) Boo absorbed calmed him down," the notion isn't mentioned until the part with the Grand Kaioshin.

First, Kaioshin says that absorbing the big, strong, "burly" South Kaioshin turned Boo into the muscle-head they just saw. But then this is what he said about the Grand Kaioshin being absorbed:

Kaioshin: The next to be absorbed was the chubby but gentle [Grand Kaioshin]. "Before this, Boo was pure evil, a failure that Bibbidi himself couldn't handle. But afterwards, he calmed down to the point that Bibbidi was able to bring him under control..."

Now again, I'm not banking on Viz's translation. But even if the wording is a little different, the emphasis seems to point that only the Grand Kaioshin being absorbed had a "negative" effect on Boo. Which means that absorbing the South Kaioshin would have raised his power, but then absorbing the Grand Kaioshin would have in turn lowered it greatly, along with affecting Boo's personality.


Anyway, CoH, you bring up a lot of good points. Frankly, at this point all it would take is an official source of some kind finally telling us once and for all where each form of Boo stands on the power-ladder. If this guidebook or what-not were to say that Pure Boo is naturally stronger than Evil Boo (sans absorptions that only Vegetto can beat, of course), then I'd believe it.

But for the time being, I just see way too much evidence to tip the scales in the other direction.

[SuperForteX]

Actually, does anyone want a guidebook to touch on this subject? This is one of the last areas of mystique in the Dragon Ball unvierse for us. Sure, many have given up on discussion of the matter, and even shun doing so.. but I'd like to think there's still a lot to talk about in reagrds to the powers of the various Buu forms.

In many ways, the Buu Saga was the most advanced and complicated.

[Kaboom]

Actually, does anyone want a guidebook to touch on this subject?

Yes, for the love of Dende, YES. I'd love for something official to come along and solve this particular "dilemma" once and for all, even if my prior side of the argument ended up being the wrong one.

[dbgtFO]

Actually, does anyone want a guidebook to touch on this subject?

I would like an interview, where Toriyama discusses the story of the Buu Arc. In this round table discussion we don't get to hear anything about the Buu Arc.

[CatouttaHell]

CatouttaHell , I'll be eagerly awaiting you to digest my super essay, since you also seem to be very interested in this matter. Who knows, maybe it'll help you refine your own reasonings or add new arguments to your case. If such is true, then I feel like I accomplished something nice.

Your essay was a very interesting read. I like how you posted a lot of solid evidence for both sides of the issue. It shows that the answer to this isn't set in stone. I honestly believe Chibi Boo would roflstomp Shin Boo if they ever fought but I am willing to accept that I am not "right" and that this is a matter which cannot be resolved unless an official guidebook says how it really is (and even then, places like Neoseeker will just ignore that completely.)

I am honestly amazed at how on an extremely important matter like Chibi Boo and Shin Boo's strengths there can be so much evidence for both sides. Amazing that the story came out coherent despite stuff like this. I was actually a Shin Boo > Chibi Boo supporter for most of my time debating DBZ and only recently switched sides. It's interesting how a matter like this affects the whole rest of the series too. Since Goku and Gotenks are directly involved in this, the multipliers for the SSjin forms and how they work are also dependent on how one feels on this issue, which is an issue that can easily bleed into the Cell Arc and GT.

I too hope this will be a civil thread full of interesting opinions. The problem with a lot of power level debates is that they tend to degenerate into the exact same things being screamed back and forth (that 30 page thread on Neoseeker about Metal Coola's strength that was just 30 pages of the exact same few points being repeated endlessly comes to mind) and accusations of bias and fanboyism being thrown around. That's one of the main reasons I suspect a lot of people here have a negative opinion of debates like this, and rightfully so. Hopefully this thread can avoid that.

1) There's the quotes where Goku claims Evil Boo is still too strong for them and then shortly after where Goku and Vegeta claim they can take on Pure Boo. In both cases, it was Boo's level of Ki they were talking about immediately beforehand, and it's not like they would so quickly forget how to sense it and ONLY judge Boo by his physical size, even if that's what they were ripping on him about.

Same with Evil Boo; why would they be talking about his Ki and then suddenly only be focusing on size? Even in the same sentence where Goku says they can't win, he says it's because "he's way stronger than either of us." And of course by context, the "like this" part of Goku's sentence obviously meant "un-fused."

Goku insisted on Fusion here and before because Boo's power was far too much for him, but later had no problems fighting Pure Boo on his own, even being capable of .

So Evil Boo is still too strong for them to beat, then "Buff" Boo is getting even stronger all of a sudden which causes them to worry more, then... suddenly Pure Boo is much stronger than either of them but they're laughing and think they can win just because he's physically smaller?

I know that it's kind of a "theme" with the final enemies in the Z era, but this would be too obvious a mistake for Goku and Vegeta to make. Especially when they were both only JUST sensing and talking about Boo's Ki beforehand. I mean, what, did they just somehow forget how to sense Ki right as Pure Boo was formed? Even after Kid Boo showed off his power by destroying Earth, neither of them had any apprehensions about fighting him one-on-one.

In a nutshell: Though possible, it's a VERY big stretch to say that these quotes are ONLY pertaining to anyone's size, and not also their strengths.

You're definitely right about all of that. I think the whole scene where Chibi Boo first appears is just something that just may be best ignored. The fact that even Vegeta is laughing his arse off seems to mean that either both of them DID just turn into idiots (which wouldn't be the first time this happened, sudden stupidity like that happened twice with Base Gotenks) or Chibi Boo's initial power was a good chunk below SSjin 2 Vegeta.

You're right about the context of Goku's quote about Shin Boo being about power, though I still think it's possible that he didn't use his real SSjin 3 power until Chibi Boo, and didn't want to reveal that to Vegeta. That guy sold his soul because Goku was stronger than him and then threw a fit and almost got both of them killed by Boohan because Goku had SSjin 3 and he didn't. If Boo somehow got as strong as Bootenks/Boohan he'd need to fuse into Vegetto again and he was probably worried about Vegeta refusing if he got him even more furious.

2) Gotenks-Boo flat-out states that he's the strongest Boo ever. And we see not too much later that even without Piccolo's brainpower, he knows full well about Pure Boo and what he's like. Was he lying...?

That's a great point, but Chibi Boo doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Gotenks-Boo. If he is though, this wouldn't be the first time a cocky villain made a lie like this. Vegeta in the Saiya-jin Arc claims he's the best in the universe despite knowing very well about Freeza, Ginyu, Zarbon, etc. Also, Ginyu claims he's the second best after Freeza despite the fact that he's so close to Freeza that he should know who King Cold is.

3) There's still all the heavy implications about Gotenks and Gohan. Gotenks was supposedly strong enough to measure up to Boo in JUST his Super Saiyan form. Even if, like me, you don't think he'd be quite up to the task, that would still make him overall much, MUCH stronger than Goku or Vegeta. Fighting Fat Boo was something that would require Super Saiyan 3 for anyone else, which would mean Gotenks' own Super Saiyan 3 is much stronger than Goku's.

The only way I usually see fans reconcile this is to assume that Gotenks gets different proportionate boosts from his transformations than Goku. Which really can't stand, since it's completely unsupported. Never are Gotenks' transformations said to work differently than anyone else's, and we shouldn't' assume he doesn't get the same 50x/100x/400x as anyone else.

Then of course there's Gohan who's even stronger, and thrashed Evil Boo easily while Gotenks barely managed a slight lead on him. The same Boo whom Goku later claimed at least once was too much for him. So there's that.

Well to be perfectly honest, I don't think Super Saiya-jin 3 is a natural transformation at all. I think it's just some crazy way of drawing more power out via Super Saiya-jin and not a real ascension. Kind of like how USSjin isn't a real ascension at all but it still powers the user up and is rather strainful (nowhere near as much as SSjin 3 though.) Going by this, I think it's possible there may be different Super Saiya-jin 3 boosts. I actually give Goku a much, much smaller one at the End of DBZ and in GT than I do in the Boo Arc. I know that's just a fan theory but that's just my way of explaining stuff without going "Gotenks skipped SSjin 2" or "Gotenks gets gag boosts."

I really hate to say this, but there's also the fact that Toriyama doesn't think in numbers and forgets things constantly.

4) Like I mentioned elsewhere, I think you're reading too much into Goku's comment about bringing Gotenks and Gohan over to "fight." Someone "fighting" can mean "winning" too, y'know. Since Goku seemed to think it was a better idea than the Spirit Bomb, that would mean he thinks highly of their power, and they ultimately wouldn't be much use if they were even weaker than Goku, who just failed to get the job done.

In fact, I get the impression that getting Gotenks and Gohan killed was just a convenient way to get the super-duper-stronger people out of the picture, so that Goku, who had just spent the entire arc being painted as the underdog, could get the final fight against a form of Boo who was also tailor-crafted for his level of power. Having Goku mention them later seems like Toriyama's way of saying, "no, I haven't forgotten about them." Just a hunch.

Well they got brought back with everyone else and with Goku's Shunkan-Ido they might as well have been a room away from the fight. The first time Goku used the Genki Dama he only managed to badly injure Vegeta, who would've killed them if Gohan didn't turn into an Ozaru and fall on him. The second time he used it he just managed to piss off Freeza and get his best friend killed, and Piccolo almost killed. Between how hard and dangerous it is to make a Genki Dama, and the current lack of anyone but a tired Vegeta and Mr. Satan to possibly distract him, it's not surprising that he thought the young'uns were a better idea IMO.

It's just my personal interpretation but I think it's possible that he just wanted the young'uns to have a go at the new Boo, but purposefully said "fight" as he knew it had gotten to a point where his original idea of letting the younger generation take over was no longer an option.

[Kaboom]

To avoid getting into a back-and-forth like all those which have come before it, I'll just re-state my last point. If some guidebook came along which laid out the Boo's strengths and said that Pure Boo was stronger than Evil Boo, then I'd go with it. Because frankly, there's enough precedence for one or the other.

However, it seems clear to me that Evil Boo being stronger is by far the much simpler solution. Going with Pure Boo would require a lot of twisting around of dialogue, big jumps in logic, and outright ignoring some things like the consistent multipliers for the Super Saiyan forms from the Super Exciting Guide. That in particular would be troublesome; Super Saiyan Gotenks can't be as strong as or stronger than the Super Saiyan 2s... AND somehow still weaker than Goku in Super Saiyan 3. Nothing anywhere has said that his boosts work differently, and the Super Exciting Guide's boosts were not said to be exclusive to Goku, and the Daizenshuu says that he surpassed "Vegeta and the others," and...

I don't want to get into much detail, but those are the types of inconsistencies I'm talking about which are and would be caused with the notion of Pure Boo being stronger. It would all require a lot of ass-pulls and conjecture, and ultimately create far more problems than it would solve.

Which is why, until the day when that magical guidebook or Toriyama interview or whatever comes out, I'll still stand by the manga clearly laying out Evil Boo as being significantly stronger than Pure Boo. There's just too much throughout the entirety of the Majin Boo arc which paints that picture, and a few late-game implications about Goku being a really cool guy aren't enough to outweigh that.


P.S. - I just found out something else interesting. Apparently, Daizenshuu #7's Character Dictionary provides some clarity on just what happened when Boo absorbed the Kaioshin. It says that only the gentle personality of the Dai Kaioshin actually weakened him:

He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.

So only the Dai Kaioshin actually weakened Boo, though it remains vague whether or not the South Kaioshin actually strengthened him... That's one element of the debate that's no longer vague, I hope?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Actually, does anyone want a guidebook to touch on this subject?

No. It would only cause more arguments among the battle power fan community and perhaps even muddle things further. Nor do I think it's the kind of thing that's welcome in guidebooks, and would only serve to confirm or refute people's opinions on the powers of Boo's different forms.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Pretty interesting outlook. I always placed them equal, but you never know now.

[Herms]

Boo: “You guys are now far, far smaller than flees.”

D'oh!

How was Goku supposed to know they'd stop being smaller than flies after they left Boo's body?

"Flees" was a typo of "fleas", not "flies". Sorry about that.

I've been meaning to update and de-typo the Strength Checker for ages now, but I get PTSD whenever I look at that thing.

[Nazi Cola]

In an interview in Daizenshuu 2, Toriyama gives reason to Goku fighting Kid Boo alone.

Q: So it's like Goku's line at the end of the battle with Majin Buu.
A: That's right. He said "You did well all on your own". I suppose that Goku's motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.

Which contradicts Goku's need to fuse with Vegeta to fight Super Boo's absorbed forms, but whatever. Haha.

[Kaboom]

Which contradicts Goku's need to fuse with Vegeta to fight Super Boo's absorbed forms, but whatever. Haha.

I suppose there's just a difference between "a challenge" and "suicide."

[Fox666]

The key words here are "like this." How was Goku supposed to know they'd stop being smaller than flies after they left Boo's body?

Well, just read what Goku said here:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

I doubt Goku was thinking that Vegetto would defeat Boo even small

[CatouttaHell]

Actually, does anyone want a guidebook to touch on this subject? This is one of the last areas of mystique in the Dragon Ball unvierse for us. Sure, many have given up on discussion of the matter, and even shun doing so.. but I'd like to think there's still a lot to talk about in reagrds to the powers of the various Buu forms.

In many ways, the Buu Saga was the most advanced and complicated.

On one hand it'd be interesting to finally have a solid, official answer, on the other hand the debate would rage anyway. The Daizenshuu states Gohan was a SSjin 2 against Dabra and the vast majority of people just dismiss it as a mistake. Not to mention that with something like this everyone can just go "Toriyama simply forgot, THIS is the real answer."

P.S. - I just found out something else interesting. Apparently, Daizenshuu #7's Character Dictionary provides some clarity on just what happened when Boo absorbed the Kaioshin. It says that only the gentle personality of the Dai Kaioshin actually weakened him:

He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.

So only the Dai Kaioshin actually weakened Boo, though it remains vague whether or not the South Kaioshin actually strengthened him... That's one element of the debate that's no longer vague, I hope?

Interesting. I honestly don't think Buff Boo is that much stronger than Chibi Boo either way, as none of the Kaioshins could even pull out the Z-Sword. But this is an interesting piece of information anyway. At least we now are 100% sure of this much though.

In an interview in Daizenshuu 2, Toriyama gives reason to Goku fighting Kid Boo alone.

Q: So it's like Goku's line at the end of the battle with Majin Buu.
A: That's right. He said "You did well all on your own". I suppose that Goku's motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.

Which contradicts Goku's need to fuse with Vegeta to fight Super Boo's absorbed forms, but whatever. Haha.

Well Goku said ""you did well all on your own. Chibi Boo put out insane amounts of power despite not relying on any absorptions, while Shin Boo started out with an absorption in him and just kept tossing more on to the pile any time somebody caused him trouble. Absorbing others isn't fair at all and might as well count as ganging up on your opponent, so Goku wouldn't return the favour to him.

Well, just read what Goku said here:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

I doubt Goku was thinking that Vegetto would defeat Boo even small

That whole situation seems kind of suspicious to me to be honest. I mean, Gohan and co were with them as well. Both Gohan and Gotenks were stronger than Shin Boo. While they WERE unconscious, Goku had no idea Shin Boo could walk around inside his own body and might've thought they'd be able to wait until they wake up. Or maybe could've hoped to bust out of Boo's body and instantly get Dende or Kibitoshin to heal them to awaken them. That's certainly better than being fused with a dick like Vegeta forever. I think since the only thing he could think of was fusing into Vegetto, who is probably enough to rape plain old Shin Boo even in base, means he really did think they'd stay small when they left Boo, hence it's best to go as overkill as possible. Vegetto was so insanely powerful that he was raping Boo even when he was a candy, so maybe Vegetto COULD somehow annihilate Boo even if he stayed tiny.

[SuperForteX]

I respect your opinion, and yes I've heard this argument many times... but I just don't like the argument at all. If Goku had believed he'd stay small like that even outside of Buu, don't you think he'd have been a little more distressed?

Crap! We're all smaller than fleas! Even Gohan and the others are this small. Shoot, let's just stay inside of Buu for the rest of our lives, it's going to totally suck living in the human world when we're this small.

Goku's whole "Let's not go outside because we can't win" can easily be justified by explaining he was equally unsure about beating pure Buu. He wanted to hang around on Kaioshin Kai and come up with a plan. Buu appeared and forced his hand. He had no choice but to fight, and even said as much.

In the case where he was inside Super Buu, he wasn't forced into that situation quite yet. He had Gohan and the others with them, powerless and helpless, so that's a HUGE factor in him being overly cautious. Of course he's not going to want to start a fight he could possibly lose.

[Kaboom]

Interesting. I honestly don't think Buff Boo is that much stronger than Chibi Boo either way, as none of the Kaioshins could even pull out the Z-Sword. But this is an interesting piece of information anyway. At least we now are 100% sure of this much though.

So now we have to wonder WHY Boo would absorb the two Kaioshin in the first place. The anime's flashback actually has South and Dai Kaioshin being a match for him, forcing Boo's hand, but that's just the anime. Otherwise, did Bibbidi order him to do it, or something? Probably not, since Boo was so difficult to control at that point...

I'm thinking maybe those old Kaioshin were supposed to be really strong, South in particular. East Kaioshin did make it clear that he was the weakest of the three... We might have a slight inconsistency here with the old-time Kaioshins' strength, considering the Z-Sword and such.