Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 23, 2011 7:47 pm

Episode #0259 (download MP3) (rss feed)
64:00; 96 kbps, mono; 44.2 MB

Episode #0259! VegettoEX and Meri discuss ye' olden fansub VHS days. How did non-Japanese fans watch the series prior to any domestic release, what were the experiences like, and how did everything change once a legitimate and proper release came on the scene? Whether names like S. Baldric, E. Monsoon, Anime Labs, Ctenosaur, Project-X, NGN, or Pearl do or do not mean anything to you, this is the episode that explains it all! Referenced sites:
I've tossed this image out there before with conversations about my DBZ movie 1 collection, but here is how Meri's fansub of the first two movies came packaged. This really showcases the extravagant packaging in the clamshell cases for a lot of this stuff, along with the completely irrelevant imagery that accompanies the material inside:

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And here's a more-full scan of the slip cover:

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Fans old and new alike, join in on a blast to the past! Fansubs, ahoy!
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:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Ringworm128 » Mon May 23, 2011 8:41 pm

Currently listening to it. Good episode as usual. So far its very interesting learning all about about fan subs.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Akumaito Beam » Mon May 23, 2011 9:46 pm

Woah, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you guys answering my question (and how much I appreciate others for submitting their questions too!) Everything about this episode was extremely fun and it gave me some great insight about what it was like back in ye olde times. I truthfully couldn’t ask for a more comprehensive answer. 


I am so sorry for making Merri struggle though my awkwardly phrased E-mail. Believe it or not that took me about 2 or 3 rewrites too. I can speak English I swear, I don’t know what’s wrong with me! I was cringing through the entire E-mail. I’m super sorry about that. Had I known this was going to be a topic I would have called in some help wording that thing a little better.

Despite not having lived through the fansub days I can relate to what you guys were saying near the end of the episode about this cartoon being much more exotic, new and fun to watch back when you were younger. I remember one of my first exposures to Dragon Ball was buying the manga 2 volumes at a time each week, one volume of Dragon Ball and one of Dragon Ball Z. I remember being so psyched up back when I was collecting the volumes for the first time. The great memories flood back so vividly it’s kinda scary. Even while experiencing the story in its unintended order like a lot of people back then (on a much smaller scale of course) it did nothing to detract from the fun. Maybe that says something about Dragon Ball itself.

Thanks again for such a great answer, it was a phenomenal episode.
Last edited by Akumaito Beam on Mon May 23, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by PuppetDoctor » Mon May 23, 2011 9:48 pm

I LOVED this podcast episode. I would have to say it has been my favorite that I have listened to thus far. I have always been curious since I learned about the old fansub tape days and just hearing you guys talk about it satisfied my curiosity. Really great podcast and I hope others enjoyed it as much as I did.

Also, thank you for answering my question via Twitter. It is sad that Dragon Ball never got a fansub (aside from that network that aired it subbed in Hawaii) since it is my favorite part of the series. I look forward to next weeks podcast.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Dizrythmia » Mon May 23, 2011 11:54 pm

Loved the episode & wanted to share my experiences. When I got the Internet back in 1996/97 I discovered emulation (a word that disgusts me these days) & naturally discovered a heap of Japanese games I had never seen on the Super Nintendo/Famicom. I had read about Dragonball Z in Super Play & decided to try out games based on the series. I saw all these golden haired warriors in the Super Botouden games & had no idea who they were, but there was something about it. I had to know who they were. This led me to investigate.

I travelled to Chinatown in the city of Adelaide seeking answers & found a little store called "The Chinatown Book Store" which was replaced with a Chinese fashion store about a year or 2 ago. Anyway, I discovered Chinese VCD fansubs. I never experienced VHS tapes, but sitting on the shelf out in the open (not even hidden away) was a Dragonball GT complete series VCD box set that contained cantonese subtitles. I didn't care that I couldn't watch, or even read the show in English. After researching online I knew that GT was the sequel to Z & I wanted to see what it was all about.

I asked the lady at the counter how much it was & she quoted me $450. I was understandably pretty shocked, but this was the late 90s & VCDs weren't all that common. I vowed to save for this box set... sadly I didn't have the dedication & forgot about it. I kept going back to that store every 6 months or so & the box set would still be there. It sat there for about 7-8 years. Each time I would go in, see the set & think "I need to start saving again" & would return home dedicated to the cause... until I forgot about it again. I don't know if someone bought it at that ridiculous price or whether they knocked it down & someone bought it, but it was gone a couple of years before it closed. Of course by this time the series was available so I was no longer worried about it.

VCDs were also available on Chinese websites for many years. In 2001 I ordered a VCD of the second Dragonball movie that claimed to be dubbed in English. The cover had a screen shot of Goku, Goten & Gohan all at the Tenkaichi Budokai in the Buu saga, but yes it was movie 2. The dub was in English, but it was a horrible dub which included names like:

Krillin = Mohan
Master Roshi = Master Martin

That's all I can remember. Bulma had some strange English name (possibly Josephine), but the dub itself was clearly from non native English speakers. I'm not sure if anyone else has seen this one. I'd be interested in hearing a podcast topic on that actually, unofficial dubs. You've now technically covered unofficial subs. It could tie in with VCD distribution maybe... Just a thought.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Corporate_Nothing » Tue May 24, 2011 12:47 am

Because you mentioned Capsule Corp. distro, look what I found with a quick Google search...
http://vegitacorp.iwarp.com/splash.html

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Tanooki Kuribo » Tue May 24, 2011 1:15 am

I can't belive you just said you went to Elizabeth Center! I used to go there like every weekend, it was only a 15 to 20 minute train right for me. Just to see what it looks like now I google mapped it. It brings back memories seeing this again. I stopped going around 1998-ish, I found a place in Brooklyn China Town that I could just walk to.

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Also, those crazy personal jabs the fansubbers would add to the episode would make me laugh. I don't know why but, me and my friends would find them so damn amusing. We would actually call each other up and talk about new ones we saw. I remember when my friend told me when he saw one insulting this guy's sister. After some digging, I was shocked to find that insult, and some more stuff!! Check this out...

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Ha ha, could you imagine being this guy James, watching DBZ and seeing that!? :lol:

Another hilarious personal jab at someone named Hank...

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And an example of the jabs taken at other fansub "companies" that Mike was talking about...

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Ha ha, this one is like a PSA...

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Also, during the bumpers the fansub "company" would sometimes advertise themselves or put up their catch phrase. Anime Labs had a few famous catch phrases, but this one was just... well... :lol:

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I wish I had all my old fansubs. I don't, I got these screen shots from a youtube channel that has clips of all these crazy fansub lines. It was really awesome to find this and know someone else thought these lines were just as funny as I did. Check them out, this is how we watched DBZ back in the day: http://www.youtube.com/user/lezzodbz

I have a picture of my room back in 1999\2000-ish. This was about the time I was getting out of the whole fan sub scene. I cropped the image to just show the shelf with my fansubs. As you can see they weren't in clamshells, they just had those printed labels mentioned on the podcast. That first video there on the left is actually a DragonBall video of the first 3 episodes. It was horrible, horrible quality even for a fansub.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Silver Sinspawn » Tue May 24, 2011 1:21 am

I've never actually seen a fan sub, since I've been conscious, they've always had VHS official dub releases. I wouldn't mind getting one.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Tsukento » Tue May 24, 2011 1:30 am

I have the same double movie fansub tape (same cover and all), except it's of movies 7 and 8.

Surprisingly the quality's actually decent and the subs are alright, for the most part. I may try to get a new VCR so I can take some shots of some of the leftover fansub tapes I got a hold of over the years.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Castor Troy » Tue May 24, 2011 1:33 am

I'll be listening to the podcast in my car on my way to and from work tomorrow, so I can't wait. :)

The first person who ever sold me a fansub is in this thread and he knows who he is. :D

I never got to see the fancy clamshell cases that came with early generation fansubs since I only started getting them in 1999. $18 for 3 tapes (12 episodes, 4 per tape) used to be quite the bargain back then. I kind of regret tossing away my fansubs as soon as I got the dvds...

For kicks, I uploaded my old 2001 fansub trade list: http://www.vg-projects.com/castor/fansubs.html

I never quite got the entire series, but I remember it was my goal to get it all back in the day. Now I have it all in some form or another. Good times.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Tue May 24, 2011 4:46 am

Ye Olden Fansub Days? I remember having that idea. It was only about six years ago...

I also remember that it went over live a lead balloon at the time.
VegettoEX wrote:I have a feeling that a bunch of old folgies sitting around talking about when we had to go to Chinatown and get two or three badly subtitles episodes that may or may not even play in our VCR for $10 a pop isn't a great thing to whine at newer fans about.
LEMMY WINZ. I'm calling coinage for the title "Ye Olden Fansub Days", btw. ;p


~Da Lemmy

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by songohan619 » Tue May 24, 2011 7:59 am

Holy Crap, Meri knows someone from Norway!!
And, you mentioned Norway multiple times!!
But, darn it, no E-mail answer for me this week.
Last edited by songohan619 on Tue May 24, 2011 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue May 24, 2011 8:59 am

Very interesting episode, guys! Like many at Daizex, by the time I got into the show, a legal release of the show was widely available, so I never watched the fansubs. Nor, for that matter, did I know how fansubs really worked prior to the days of simply Googling whatever it is you wanted to see. What I also found very interesting was the attitude towards fansubbing in general. Now it is demonized--and probably rightfully so--as a practice that has contributed to the ruin of the anime industry. Back then it seemed to have a certain charm to it.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by MetaMoss » Tue May 24, 2011 9:49 am

It is interesting to listen on how fans used to get the Dragon Ball series. I am also surprised on how FUNi handled the cease-and-desist letters, since I was expecting them to say "We own the rights to the show over here, so quit selling or we'll sue ya!"

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Akumaito Beam » Tue May 24, 2011 11:10 am

You folks touched upon the fact that there was a pretty big influential online petition for subtitled Dragon Ball DVDs back in the day. I’ve heard about this before but have no knowledge about it other than it existed. Could anyone in the know elaborate on the topic a bit? Who started it, how was it phrased, how many signatures were on it? Hell, just any general information would be appreciated really. I feel like I’m not paying proper respects to all of the fans that made such a huge effort to accomplish this task by not knowing this information. Do you guys think it was solely the petition that made subtitled DVDs happen or were they leaning toward doing this anyway? I’m only asking because it seems pretty chill of Funi to take such a big risk for the fans, even going as far as to let Mr.Simmons use the original names and curse to insure a 100% accurate translation after the first couple Ginyu tapes. It just seems odd to me because I’ve seen something like this occur and fail spectacularly. Namely the petitions and bombardment towards 4kids for a subtitled DVD release back when they owned the equally popular One Piece. I don’t even recall them making any real statement regarding the hullaballoo.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 24, 2011 11:36 am

I was still somewhat of a punk kid myself at the time, so my memory of the petition isn't all that great. Daimao might be able to shed a little light on it.

(EDIT: Well no shit, I think this is an archived version of the petition after it had been closed. There's some duplicated and conflicting text in there, so I'm not sure what's up with that.)

What I was able to dig up (because the robots file has finally been removed) was the announcement of upcoming subtitled DVDs from toriyama.org (which was run by TheDuck [Brian], Wuken [Sherwin], Daimao [Steve], and maybe one other person I'm forgetting...? Was it Carddass [Rob]...?).
toriyama.org wrote:10/01/99: FUNimation Announces Subtitled Dragonball Z DVDs

Over the last few weeks there has been speculation on FUNimation releasing Dragon Ball Z subtitled on DVD, mainly from the interview that a friend of this site, Steve Harmon, conducted with Gen Fukunaga. The staff of toriyama.org has known that FUNimation has been researching this possibility for a while and has actually been doing some research for them in this field. FUNimation had been dedicated to this concept since early last summer but has only recently begun to finalize the whole thing. We had been holding out on giving this information to the public for a while now at the request of our contact at FUNimation (who will be designing the actual discs) but with recent revelations the news is ready for the public.

The biggest news in regards to the DVDs is the fact that the original Japanese audio will be included along with English language subtitles! For anyone wondering how the entire toriyama.org staff has had so much faith in FUNimation this is why. We have known that they have been planning on this for a while now and that they plan to do things right. Some people may be afraid of the possibility of FUNimation using the dubbed scripts as the subtitled tracks but it does not look as if this will happen. Our contact at FUNimation has indicated that she is determined to do what is needed to make sure that this does not happen. In other words, it seems as if anyone who has insulted FUNimation by claiming that they do not really understand what the fans want is being forced to eat crow about now.

As for why FUNimation has decided to do the subtitled version on DVD without a VHS release, the reason is not what most people think. Many people have come under the impression that FUNimation will not do DBZ subbed on VHS because the series has not been released on home media in Japan and, therefore, Toei would not allow FUNimation to do the series on VHS here. Although this has been a very mild factor, the main reason has not been the Japanese market, but rather, problems with the US market. Dragon Ball Z is the most commonly fansubbed anime series in the US. This prompted fear within FUNimation that many fans would not buy subtitled VHS tapes of DBZ because they either had fansubs already or they could get fansubs for less. DVDs with dual language tracks, though, could sell to both fans of the dubbed and original versions of the series. For anyone who owns fansubs and is questioning why they should buy DVDs the answer is simple: Better quality, more accuracy, and extras. Most fansub tapes have very degraded picture and sound, while DVDs have incredibly crisp video quality. Although many people collect fansubs because they think that they tell the story right, most fansubs are very inaccurate and have things altered often (despite what Anime Labs would have most people believe, the Z senshi do not swear often.) The extras on the disc, which have not been fully decided on, should also make the discs worth buying.

The episodes are not the only thing coming to DVD. FUNimation is determined to bring out the rest of the DBZ movies in time. The contracts have already been written for the purchase of DBZ movie 4, "Super Saiyan Goku," and all that is needed now is Toei of Japan's signature. (Note: This may no longer be the case, as the contracts could have been handled by now.) The other movies should follow after the release of Z movie 4. Original Dragon Ball movie 3 has been scripted for dubbing, as well, but with how much time DBZ takes up this should not be expected soon.

Of all the things that people are wondering about the upcoming DVDs the biggest question is when will all of this happen. As of right now it looks as if the first bilingual DVD to be released will be the DBZ movie 4: "Super Saiyan Goku" in the spring of 2000. The episode discs should follow soon after. This may seem like a long time, but to quote another webmaster from when he was speaking about issues he had about DBZ censorship a few years ago with the censorship of DBZ, "We waited 10 years for this show." Well, if we've waited that long we can handle half a year (Note: I know that I haven't waited that long, and if the web master in question has then he's been watching DBZ since he was two years old.) The reason for the six months wait is that FUNimation has just made the decision to do this and is currently research how to do things. At the current time they have not even purchased the DVD mastering equipment, and once they do they will need to take time to learn how to operate the software to program the menus and such. For the moment fans just need to be patient. There is no longer the question of whether or not FUNimation will give fans of the original series what they want, it's just a matter of waiting. As of right now few things have been decided in terms of content for the discs, but as things develop we will be posting the most detailed and accurate information available.

There is one piece of disappointing news in all of this. Rather than starting DBZ from the start of the series FUNimation will be starting the episode discs at the beginning of "Season 3." The reason for this is that FUNimation subcontracted the home media releases of the first two seasons of the series to Pioneer entertainment. That means that FUNimation owns the broadcast rights of first fifty-some (or sixty-some, if speaking of the original language versions) and the three movies, but only Pioneer can release videotapes, Laserdiscs, and DVDs of them. Does this mean that we will never see the early episodes of DBZ released subtitled? No, it does not. It just means that Pioneer would have to do the episodes subtitled or FUNimation would have to find a way to regain the episodes from Pioneer. In my personal opinion, though, I do not believe that fans should start pressuring Pioneer to do subbed DVDs yet. The reason for this is that if FUNimation manages to do a better job than Pioneer would with the episode DVDs, then Pioneer would feel the need to emulate them in order to live up to them, and with some of the things that FUNimation is considering I think that that would be a very good thing. If they were to start doing subtitled DVDs before FUNimation, though, they would not have anything to try to beat. Although FUNimation is a small company, I have more faith in them then I have in some of the larger anime companies. Despite what people have been led to believe, FUNimation does listen to what fans say, it's just that it has taken time to process everything, work with Toei, get enough money together to invest in a project like this, and make a final decision to do it. Expect a lot from FUNimation on this, even more than you would expect from Pioneer or ADVision. This is all of the information I have for now, when I know more you'll know more.

—Brian Real?
toriyama.org Head of PR and Staff Writer
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by NeverRamza » Tue May 24, 2011 12:22 pm

Random tidbits:

The Garlic Jr. saga also became first available through the Pearl version. I take the credit in introducing this to the internet at large after an extremely long and slow goose chase where I managed to track down a PAL version from someone overseas.

Here is a picture of Shelton (I think that's his name, check the credits, he did the majority of DBGT) from Project X and Victor from Anime Labs. I think I have a picture of Corey from Ctenosaur somewhere on some CD or even possibly zip disk, but that would take me a long time to find.

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Somewhere around 1996 or 1997, Funimation did reach out to fansub distributors on their own. Back when I had my site on some local internet provider's space and there was barely anything on it, I decided to get rid of a few tapes I didn't need. Daniel Cocanougher sent me a very casual sounding email telling me to stop and asking me to call him. He gave me the Funimation phone number, amusingly a number I could have reached anyone working at Funimation as even Gen Fukunaga was listed in the automated extension listing, and I then had a 5-10 minute conversation with Dan. I was pretty freaked out calling him being like 14 at the time but he was a pretty nice guy in explaining why I shouldn't be sending out tapes on the internet.

I did have the entirety of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT on VHS fansub. I had boxes I stored under my bed, all in order. I used to feel so cool. Trying to find them all was like a game and fandom.

I'll confirm that there were no other subbed versions of the DB series other than the NGN stuff.

I'd say that for today, there are still a few things that have a drop of the old magical quality to it. Finding the stuff talked about at http://kanzentai.com/features.php?id=dbox_perfect for example.

Great episode! :)

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by NeverRamza » Tue May 24, 2011 12:24 pm

VegettoEX wrote:What I was able to dig up (because the robots file has finally been removed) was the announcement of upcoming subtitled DVDs from toriyama.org (which was run by TheDuck [Brian], Wuken [Sherwin], Daimao [Steve], and maybe one other person I'm forgetting...? Was it Carddass [Rob]...?).
It was indeed Carddass/Rob.

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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 24, 2011 2:04 pm

Hurray, it's Ramza :D. Thanks for the extra confirmations.

I don't remember what I said during the show (or rather, how I phrased it), but I meant to imply that it was very unlikely, particularly outside of fansub distributors themselves, for anyone to have the entirety of the series -- though it wasn't impossible.

Doing the math, I think my first Freeza fansubs were episodes 94-99 and 100-105. They were six episodes each tape. Did I say 106 during the show? I think I did.
Li'l Lemmy wrote:Ye Olden Fansub Days? I remember having that idea. It was only about six years ago...

I also remember that it went over live a lead balloon at the time.
Interesting how my viewpoint about doing this for a topic hadn't really changed at all over the last 5-6 years. I think it helped saving it for as long as we did, actually. Like I said during the show, I ended up having a ton of fun jotting everything down and bringing it all back to high school and early college years for myself. It was certainly weird times, but let enough years fly by and suddenly it's still weird, but with a little rose-tinting going on to paint it in a better light.

Anyway, I didn't mean to semi-apologize for even doing this as a topic so many times (or at least it kinda felt that way). I thought it was fun, it sounds like people actually learned something from it, and as I anticipated, all the old folks seemed to have a good time just listening to things they know about :).

In conclusion, props to my man Lemmy for being one of the biggest and longest-running supporters of the podcast :D.
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Re: Episode #0259 (22 May 2011)

Post by Flamzeron » Tue May 24, 2011 2:21 pm

This is an interesting episode. I had a few of the sub tapes (one of the Buu arc in Z and two of GT). My Z one was a Games and James one. :lol:

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