Vegeta's character and popularity

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta never could have loved Bulma or Trunks if that was so. The Namek saga is where Vegeta first show signs of having a "heart", and I have a hard time believing his breaking down in tears (which never happens again, even before his second death) was due solely to self-pity. I'm sure being used by Freeza was a huge part of his resentment (maybe even the bigger part, certainly more than what the dub makes it out to be), but I doubt that was just it. The thing about Vegeta is, he only opens up when he thinks he has nothing to lose by doing so; pride doesn't mean much when you're dead. When in the company of others, he puts up a facade of uncaring, which comes naturally at first, but becomes more and more difficult as his personality softens.

I disagree. Vegeta first shows signs of having a heart right at the end of the Cell arc, where he snaps at Trunks' death and madly rushes Cell. And later, he gives Trunks a subtle goodbye gesture before he departs back to the future. That was when, unbeknowest to him, he ended up having some love for Trunks. Before that, he didn't move a muscle to save Bulma and Trunks from Dr. Gero's blast, only caring about tracking down Gero and killing him. It was only over those 7 years where he'd become further settled in the comfortable life on Earth, that he began to love Trunks more and love Bulma (and vice versa).

In the Freeza arc, Vegeta first broke down in tears once he realized that he wasn't a Super Saiyan after all, couldn't defeat his former master he'd been striving to destroy his entire life and was going to be killed. Then, after that, he broke down because he was shedding his pride by asking a low-class Saiyan who he hated with a passion (probably the person he hated the most other than Freeza) to do what he could not after having yearned for it his entire life. If not at Vegeta's hand, then it had to be at Goku's, a fellow Saiyan.

I've never once thought that Vegeta's hard, nonchalant demeanour was a facade because he didn't want to lose his pride. Perhaps in the Boo arc, where he didn't want to admit to becoming comfortable on Earth and loving his family until he realized the shit they were in. And maybe when he saves Gohan and Kuririn from Gurd (we learn later that he wanted them alive so they could help him defeat Freeza). But not anywhere else.

[Gokuman1993]

Oh, this is going to be wonderful.....


Well, Vegeta was an excellent villain, but a hero.....not so much. I'm just gonna outright say that Vegeta is my least favorite character in Dragonball. Honestly, when I first read about this arrogant, violent, sociopathic ailen right when appears after Goku is killed by Raditz, I was geared up to hate him. The reason of why is because villains in all kinds of media are characters I love to hate. However, when a villain suddenly becomes a good guy, but retains those quailties that make him a bad guy, I'd just hate that guy. So, in my opinion, while Vegeta has his good moments (ex. his speech to Goku, his fight with #19 as a Super Saiyan, him on Team Four Star), he's a character I'd love to see get his comuppance everytime he does something so arrogantly stupid (Cell, anyone?)

His popularity? Well, again in my opinion, he's wayyyyyy too popular! Fanboys and Fangirls play him out as this "sexy, badass character" But, in my humble opinion, he's just an arrogant, annoyingly determined prick who believes in his power way too much and is karma's little plaything. But, it's there opinions, so I wont rant about them.

Well, that's all I can think of for now. I'll be back for more....

[Cipher]

he's a character I'd love to see get his comuppance everytime he does something so arrogantly stupid (Cell, anyone?)

Letting #18 be absorbed is certainly a dick move, but again, how is this any more deserving of comeuppance than Goku letting Freeza reach full power? Or letting Piccolo fly away? Or letting Vegeta retreat into space?

It's the same old shit. Vegeta lets Cell become complete because he sees it as an opportunity to cement his superiority; he thinks he'll still be stronger. Goku does the same with Freeza for the exact same reasons, the only difference being he's kind of/sort of avenging Kuririn. He let's both Piccolo and Vegeta get away for fucking fun.

Goku lets villains off the hook, and they either get defeated or become good. Vegeta lets a villain off the hook, and he immediately gets his ass kicked and a handful of "Well, you sure had that coming." Freeza could have easily been more powerful than Goku expected, killed him, and traveled to Earth to wipe out everyone there. Piccolo could have come back in a few years with a new technique, killed him, and taken over the world. Vegeta could have retreated into space for a few months and come back to Earth leagues stronger. Or, as Goku himself admitted to fearing, he could have just killed his friends and family on Namek.

But for whatever reason, none of that happened. Because Goku's not Vegeta, and therefore undeserving of comeuppance. (Until the Boo arc rolls around, and even then it's barely addressed.)

[Michsi]

he's a character I'd love to see get his comuppance everytime he does something so arrogantly stupid (Cell, anyone?)

Letting #18 be absorbed is certainly a dick move, but again, how is this any more deserving of comeuppance than Goku letting Freeza reach full power? Or letting Piccolo fly away? Or letting Vegeta retreat into space?

It's the same old shit. Vegeta lets Cell become complete because he sees it as an opportunity to cement his superiority; he thinks he'll still be stronger. Goku does the same with Freeza for the exact same reasons, the only difference being he's kind of/sort of avenging Kuririn. He let's both Piccolo and Vegeta get away for fucking fun.

Goku lets villains off the hook, and they either get defeated or become good. Vegeta lets a villain off the hook, and he immediately gets his ass kicked and a handful of "Well, you sure had that coming." Freeza could have easily been more powerful than Goku expected, killed him, and traveled to Earth to wipe out everyone there. Piccolo could have come back in a few years with a new technique, killed him, and taken over the world. Vegeta could have retreated into space for a few months and come back to Earth leagues stronger. Or, as Goku himself admitted to fearing, he could have just killed his friends and family on Namek.

But for whatever reason, none of that happened. Because Goku's not Vegeta, and therefore undeserving of comeuppance. (Until the Boo arc rolls around, and even then it's barely addressed.)

I gonna come right up and say it : it's Vegeta's attitude that's annoying.

As far as the comparisson with Goku:

With Piccolo: There was still Kami to consider, so killing him was out of the question, as for locking him up with the mafuba - not many agree with me here but I still say Goku realized that Piccolo jr. was not Piccolo Daimao and Goku probably thought he didn't deserve it. Altough having an rival around was also a reason, I will never deny that.

With letting Freeza reach Full power - I can really blame him here the same way I also can't really blame Vegeta for stupidly charging at Cell after he killed Trunks. It's basically the same situation. This was probably also meant to show us just how much he changed as a SSJ, how ruthless and cold hearted it could make him BUT, as you mentioned, he acted out of revenge.

With letting Vegeta escape - there is pretty much no excuse for this , that much is clear.
But the difference, he DOES regret it. I always thought that Goku, in moment such as these, becomes dangerously short sighted and the implications of his actions don't hit home until after. Whoops!
Vegeta does so too, but usually only after everybody is neck deep in the shit he created.

HOWEVER - again, why do people feel the need to compare Vegeta with Goku to excuse his actions? Goku's stupid actions don't make Vegeta's any less stupid. A lot people here (if not most ) realize that Goku isn't the perfect hero, but why should that be brought up here?

I feel the need to mention this because I've seen this switching to Goku when discussing Vegeta so often. It may not necessarily wrog, but I don' t think it's fair

[roidrage]

he's a character I'd love to see get his comuppance everytime he does something so arrogantly stupid (Cell, anyone?)

Letting #18 be absorbed is certainly a dick move, but again, how is this any more deserving of comeuppance than Goku letting Freeza reach full power? Or letting Piccolo fly away? Or letting Vegeta retreat into space?

It's the same old shit. Vegeta lets Cell become complete because he sees it as an opportunity to cement his superiority; he thinks he'll still be stronger. Goku does the same with Freeza for the exact same reasons, the only difference being he's kind of/sort of avenging Kuririn. He let's both Piccolo and Vegeta get away for fucking fun.

Goku lets villains off the hook, and they either get defeated or become good. Vegeta lets a villain off the hook, and he immediately gets his ass kicked and a handful of "Well, you sure had that coming." Freeza could have easily been more powerful than Goku expected, killed him, and traveled to Earth to wipe out everyone there. Piccolo could have come back in a few years with a new technique, killed him, and taken over the world. Vegeta could have retreated into space for a few months and come back to Earth leagues stronger. Or, as Goku himself admitted to fearing, he could have just killed his friends and family on Namek.

But for whatever reason, none of that happened. Because Goku's not Vegeta, and therefore undeserving of comeuppance. (Until the Boo arc rolls around, and even then it's barely addressed.)

I gonna come right up and say it : it's Vegeta's attitude that's annoying.

As far as the comparisson with Goku:

With Piccolo: There was still Kami to consider, so killing him was out of the question, as for locking him up with the mafuba - not many agree with me here but I still say Goku realized that Piccolo jr. was not Piccolo Daimao and Goku probably thought he didn't deserve it. Altough having an rival around was also a reason, I will never deny that.

With letting Freeza reach Full power - I can really blame him here the same way I also can't really blame Vegeta for stupidly charging at Cell after he killed Trunks. It's basically the same situation. This was probably also meant to show us just how much he changed as a SSJ, how ruthless and cold hearted it could make him BUT, as you mentioned, he acted out of revenge.

With letting Vegeta escape - there is pretty much no excuse for this , that much is clear.
But the difference, he DOES regret it. I always thought that Goku, in moment such as these, becomes dangerously short sighted and the implications of his actions don't hit home until after. Whoops!
Vegeta does so too, but usually only after everybody is neck deep in the shit he created.

HOWEVER - again, why do people feel the need to compare Vegeta with Goku to excuse his actions? Goku's stupid actions don't make Vegeta's any less stupid. A lot people here (if not most ) realize that Goku isn't the perfect hero, but why should that be brought up here?

I feel the need to mention this because I've seen this switching to Goku when discussing Vegeta so often. It may not necessarily wrog, but I don' t think it's fair

You're right; Goku gets off easy where Vegeta doesn't because he's an unrepentant dick. But even though Vegeta's an unrepentant dick, I usually despise the characters he's fighting so much that I find myself rooting for him. I hate characters like the Androids, and even though Vegeta would undoubtedly act like an even bigger asshole if he did win, I'll root for him with no reservations if it means I get to see Android 18's smug face smashed in.

[Michsi]

You're right; Goku gets off easy where Vegeta doesn't because he's an unrepentant dick. But even though Vegeta's an unrepentant dick, I usually despise the characters he's fighting so much that I find myself rooting for him. I hate characters like the Androids, and even though Vegeta would undoubtedly act like an even bigger asshole if he did win, I'll root for him with no reservations if it means I get to see Android 18's smug face smashed in.

This would have been understandable if only you hadn't used 18 as an example. Yes she was somewhat arrogant when fighting Vegeta, however she straight out said that she would leave him alone if he left her alone meaning she had no interest in fighting or hurting him (or anybody that wasn't Goku) It was Vegeta who wanted to continue the fight. And I keep thinking of that poor truck driver who got blasted by Vegeta just because he was there...seriously, throughout the fight he was a bigger asshole than the bad guys....

[Gokuman1993]

You're right; Goku gets off easy where Vegeta doesn't because he's an unrepentant dick. But even though Vegeta's an unrepentant dick, I usually despise the characters he's fighting so much that I find myself rooting for him. I hate characters like the Androids, and even though Vegeta would undoubtedly act like an even bigger asshole if he did win, I'll root for him with no reservations if it means I get to see Android 18's smug face smashed in.

This would have been understandable if only you hadn't used 18 as an example. Yes she was somewhat arrogant when fighting Vegeta, however she straight out said that she would leave him alone if he left her alone meaning she had no interest in fighting or hurting him (or anybody that wasn't Goku) It was Vegeta who wanted to continue the fight. And I keep thinking of that poor truck driver who got blasted by Vegeta just because he was there...seriously, throughout the fight he was a bigger asshole than the bad guys....

Thank you for calling Vegeta an asshole. And mentioning about the poor truck driver and androids who just couldn't get a break from that guy.

[roidrage]

You're right; Goku gets off easy where Vegeta doesn't because he's an unrepentant dick. But even though Vegeta's an unrepentant dick, I usually despise the characters he's fighting so much that I find myself rooting for him. I hate characters like the Androids, and even though Vegeta would undoubtedly act like an even bigger asshole if he did win, I'll root for him with no reservations if it means I get to see Android 18's smug face smashed in.

This would have been understandable if only you hadn't used 18 as an example. Yes she was somewhat arrogant when fighting Vegeta, however she straight out said that she would leave him alone if he left her alone meaning she had no interest in fighting or hurting him (or anybody that wasn't Goku) It was Vegeta who wanted to continue the fight. And I keep thinking of that poor truck driver who got blasted by Vegeta just because he was there...seriously, throughout the fight he was a bigger asshole than the bad guys....

Thank you for calling Vegeta an asshole. And mentioning about the poor truck driver and androids who just couldn't get a break from that guy.

No. Not even. I hate the Androids, way more than I could ever dislike Vegeta. Here's the kicker; we know Vegeta is an asshole. Everybody rags on him for it, it gets thrown in his face, hell, even he has to admit it. But the Androids? They get a pass! They're not arrogant brats, they're just misunderstood! After all, it's not like they intend to do anything bad, like kill Goku, and they can be trusted, even though their future counterparts turned Future Trunks' life into a living hell. The truth is that Vegeta, even for purely selfish reasons, was the only one with the balls to take a stand and try to put their dismissive cockiness in its place. Everyone else failed to. That's understandable, since fighting them directly never worked out very well, but Kuririn screwed over his best friend, who he'd known for years, for some bitch, and that really pissed me off. I hate when asshat characters in anime are rammed down the viewers' throats when they hardly change. Say what you want about Vegeta; he was always punished for his stupidity and arrogance, and that taught him something in the end.

The truck driver doesn't count; Android 18 had no more regard for peoples' lives than Vegeta. She flipped cars over and robbed stores. That's not on the same level as killing someone obviously, but for one thing, wouldn't you be a little freaked out by seeing Super Saiyan Vegeta rather than annoyed? For another, that truck driver could have been brought back to life had it not been for a certain someone's pointless wish at the end of the arc.

None of that excuses Vegeta's callousness, of course, but just because he openly killed someone and the three Androids did not doesn't mean they have any kind of moral high ground, or that they care any more than he did. They're not good guys, and I maintain 18's smug face should have been smashed in, even thought it would have meant Vegeta obnoxiously preening and patting himself on the back.

[Gaffer Tape]

I admit I can't help but chuckle that you're both stating that Vegeta murdered an innocent man and cold blood yet are possibly insinuating he has some sort of moral high ground over the Artificial Humans in the same sentence. I'm not saying that they (or at least #17) hadn't done any killing before, but if the only person any of them killed was Dr. Gero, the man who'd forcibly made them machines, versus Vegeta killing anyone and everyone who just happens to be standing there... really, Vegeta wins?

But, really, you're saying it's Kuririn's fault that Vegeta killed that truck driver? Sure, I'll agree that Kuririn's wish was stupid and unnecessary, but how do you even figure that Kuririn holds responsibility for it over the man who actually did the killing? That's like saying that when a man is killed by a gunshot wound, it's the fault of that idiot doctor who wasn't able to save his life rather than the person who shot him!

On an unrelated note, it's worth mentioning that the Artificial Humans from Trunks's future are completely separate people from the ones in the main timeline, so it's hardly fair to hold the main #17 and #18 responsible for something they never did. That would be like pointing to Trunks at the end of the series and saying, "He killed Freeza!" when he never even met Freeza.

[Michsi]

No. Not even. I hate the Androids, way more than I could ever dislike Vegeta. Here's the kicker; we know Vegeta is an asshole. Everybody rags on him for it, it gets thrown in his face, hell, even he has to admit it. But the Androids? They get a pass! They're not arrogant brats, they're just misunderstood! After all, it's not like they intend to do anything bad, like kill Goku, and they can be trusted, even though their future counterparts turned Future Trunks' life into a living hell. The truth is that Vegeta, even for purely selfish reasons, was the only one with the balls to take a stand and try to put their dismissive cockiness in its place. Everyone else failed to. That's understandable, since fighting them directly never worked out very well, but Kuririn screwed over his best friend, who he'd known for years, for some bitch, and that really pissed me off. I hate when asshat characters in anime are rammed down the viewers' throats when they hardly change. Say what you want about Vegeta; he was always punished for his stupidity and arrogance, and that taught him something in the end.

The truck driver doesn't count; Android 18 had no more regard for peoples' lives than Vegeta. She flipped cars over and robbed stores. That's not on the same level as killing someone obviously, but for one thing, wouldn't you be a little freaked out by seeing Super Saiyan Vegeta rather than annoyed? For another, that truck driver could have been brought back to life had it not been for a certain someone's pointless wish at the end of the arc.

None of that excuses Vegeta's callousness, of course, but just because he openly killed someone and the three Androids did not doesn't mean they have any kind of moral high ground, or that they care any more than he did. They're not good guys, and I maintain 18's smug face should have been smashed in, even thought it would have meant Vegeta obnoxiously preening and patting himself on the back.

First of all, Vegeta wasn't the only one with the balls to take a stand, he was just the most eager. Everybody else was trying to approach the situation more carefully (as one should), he dived in head first and forced the others to go with down with him.

Nobody denied that the androids were out to kill Goku, but that was pretty much the only threat they represented. They were not the same as their counterparts from Trunks future, even Kami admits this.
How am I supposed to root for Vegeta when I see that a) he is the same merciless, selfish bastard arrogant and full of himself that dismisses any caution b) the supposed bad guys are more merciful than him, they don't kill them, they don't kill anybody. Future 18 and 17 destroy anything that moves and enjoy it, but these guys only "flip cars over and robb stores". I actually found it amusing to see them behave like typical rowdy teenagers despite the fact that they could pretty much destroy the earth with their power. 18 wasn't even that much into fighting, just layed back and generally uninterested in everything.

And why does the truck driver not count? I seriously feel bad about him.

Say what you want about Vegeta; he was always punished for his stupidity and arrogance, and that taught him something in the end.

Huh? He never learns anything! He migh get punished but it's he never really gets anything more than the others who did not do anything wrong.

Androids - wants to fight them to prove he is better
Cell - lets him reach perfection because he wants to prove his better
Buu - lets Babidi cast a spell on him and helps Buu
Buu - destroys potara

Or maybe you mean end of the series "in the end" , in that case maybe, but we don't see just how much he changed. Hopefully enough to keep him from doing the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

[roidrage]

No. Not even. I hate the Androids, way more than I could ever dislike Vegeta. Here's the kicker; we know Vegeta is an asshole. Everybody rags on him for it, it gets thrown in his face, hell, even he has to admit it. But the Androids? They get a pass! They're not arrogant brats, they're just misunderstood! After all, it's not like they intend to do anything bad, like kill Goku, and they can be trusted, even though their future counterparts turned Future Trunks' life into a living hell. The truth is that Vegeta, even for purely selfish reasons, was the only one with the balls to take a stand and try to put their dismissive cockiness in its place. Everyone else failed to. That's understandable, since fighting them directly never worked out very well, but Kuririn screwed over his best friend, who he'd known for years, for some bitch, and that really pissed me off. I hate when asshat characters in anime are rammed down the viewers' throats when they hardly change. Say what you want about Vegeta; he was always punished for his stupidity and arrogance, and that taught him something in the end.

The truck driver doesn't count; Android 18 had no more regard for peoples' lives than Vegeta. She flipped cars over and robbed stores. That's not on the same level as killing someone obviously, but for one thing, wouldn't you be a little freaked out by seeing Super Saiyan Vegeta rather than annoyed? For another, that truck driver could have been brought back to life had it not been for a certain someone's pointless wish at the end of the arc.

None of that excuses Vegeta's callousness, of course, but just because he openly killed someone and the three Androids did not doesn't mean they have any kind of moral high ground, or that they care any more than he did. They're not good guys, and I maintain 18's smug face should have been smashed in, even thought it would have meant Vegeta obnoxiously preening and patting himself on the back.

First of all, Vegeta wasn't the only one with the balls to take a stand, he was just the most eager. Everybody else was trying to approach the situation more carefully (as one should), he dived in head first and forced the others to go with down with him.

Nobody denied that the androids were out to kill Goku, but that was pretty much the only threat they represented. They were not the same as their counterparts from Trunks future, even Kami admits this.
How am I supposed to root for Vegeta when I see that a) he is the same merciless, selfish bastard arrogant and full of himself that dismisses any caution b) the supposed bad guys are more merciful than him, they don't kill them, they don't kill anybody. Future 18 and 17 destroy anything that moves and enjoy it, but these guys only "flip cars over and robb stores". I actually found it amusing to see them behave like typical rowdy teenagers despite the fact that they could pretty much destroy the earth with their power. 18 wasn't even that much into fighting, just layed back and generally uninterested in everything.

And why does the truck driver not count? I seriously feel bad about him.

Say what you want about Vegeta; he was always punished for his stupidity and arrogance, and that taught him something in the end.

Huh? He never learns anything! He migh get punished but it's he never really gets anything more than the others who did not do anything wrong.

Androids - wants to fight them to prove he is better
Cell - lets him reach perfection because he wants to prove his better
Buu - lets Babidi cast a spell on him and helps Buu
Buu - destroys potara

Or maybe you mean end of the series "in the end" , in that case maybe, but we don't see just how much he changed. Hopefully enough to keep him from doing the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

Kami saying the Androids "are different" is him falling into the same stupidity as everyone else in this arc. The only reason 17 and 18 didn't kill anyone is because they had a purpose in going to kill Goku first. After that, it would be open season. I don't buy for one second the present Androids were any better than their future counterparts, and that they wouldn't have laid waste to the Earth once they killed Goku and needed entertainment. Watching them do whatever they wanted didn't amuse me, either, it just annoyed me.

I don't feel bad for the truck driver at all; he was a moron (as is every single civilian in Dragon Ball, which precludes me from feeling any sympathy). If you see Super Saiyan Vegeta, you at least note he looks a little bit different than a normal person, and figure that maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't yell at something that's clearly inhuman. That doesn't let Vegeta off the hook, but again, Android 18 didn't care any more about people than he did; she didn't kill them because she pretentiously dismissed them as not worth her time, and that alone demonstrates an arrogance easily on par with Vegeta's.

The Androids only seemed more benevolent because they set out to kill Goku before doing anything else; Kami's "wanting to see what happens" is idiotic, especially when his prodigy's life is at stake. If he had merged with Piccolo and killed at least one of them, then Cell never would have been a threat.

[roidrage]

I admit I can't help but chuckle that you're both stating that Vegeta murdered an innocent man and cold blood yet are possibly insinuating he has some sort of moral high ground over the Artificial Humans in the same sentence. I'm not saying that they (or at least #17) hadn't done any killing before, but if the only person any of them killed was Dr. Gero, the man who'd forcibly made them machines, versus Vegeta killing anyone and everyone who just happens to be standing there... really, Vegeta wins?

But, really, you're saying it's Kuririn's fault that Vegeta killed that truck driver? Sure, I'll agree that Kuririn's wish was stupid and unnecessary, but how do you even figure that Kuririn holds responsibility for it over the man who actually did the killing? That's like saying that when a man is killed by a gunshot wound, it's the fault of that idiot doctor who wasn't able to save his life rather than the person who shot him!

On an unrelated note, it's worth mentioning that the Artificial Humans from Trunks's future are completely separate people from the ones in the main timeline, so it's hardly fair to hold the main #17 and #18 responsible for something they never did. That would be like pointing to Trunks at the end of the series and saying, "He killed Freeza!" when he never even met Freeza.

I never insinuated Vegeta had any moral high ground over the Androids. I said that the Androids didn't have any moral high ground over Vegeta; they're equal. Just because the Androids didn't kill anyone before being absorbed doesn't make them "good people". Just like you'd say Vegeta's redemption doesn't make him a "good person".

And no, I did not say Kuririn was responsible for the truck driver's death. Don't put words in my mouth. I have no problem with disagreement, but do not put words in my mouth. I said Kuririn stupidly forfeited a chance to bring him back to life and reverse the events. Vegeta murdered the truck driver; I couldn't care less, but I understand that he murdered him. He's responsible for killing him, but Kuririn is responsible for keeping him dead. The same can be said for your analogy; the shooter is responsible for the man having a gunshot, but the doctor is responsible for not saving him when he was capable of it. They both have blood on their hands.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I have a chip on my shoulder about the Androids the same way you do Vegeta.

[roidrage]

I admit I can't help but chuckle that you're both stating that Vegeta murdered an innocent man and cold blood yet are possibly insinuating he has some sort of moral high ground over the Artificial Humans in the same sentence. I'm not saying that they (or at least #17) hadn't done any killing before, but if the only person any of them killed was Dr. Gero, the man who'd forcibly made them machines, versus Vegeta killing anyone and everyone who just happens to be standing there... really, Vegeta wins?

But, really, you're saying it's Kuririn's fault that Vegeta killed that truck driver? Sure, I'll agree that Kuririn's wish was stupid and unnecessary, but how do you even figure that Kuririn holds responsibility for it over the man who actually did the killing? That's like saying that when a man is killed by a gunshot wound, it's the fault of that idiot doctor who wasn't able to save his life rather than the person who shot him!

On an unrelated note, it's worth mentioning that the Artificial Humans from Trunks's future are completely separate people from the ones in the main timeline, so it's hardly fair to hold the main #17 and #18 responsible for something they never did. That would be like pointing to Trunks at the end of the series and saying, "He killed Freeza!" when he never even met Freeza.

I never insinuated Vegeta had any moral high ground over the Androids. I said that the Androids didn't have any moral high ground over Vegeta; they're equal. Just because the Androids didn't kill anyone before being absorbed doesn't make them "good people". Just like you'd say Vegeta's redemption doesn't make him a "good person".

And no, I did not say Kuririn was responsible for the truck driver's death. Don't put words in my mouth. I have no problem with disagreement, but do not put words in my mouth. I said Kuririn stupidly forfeited a chance to bring him back to life and reverse the events. Vegeta murdered the truck driver; I couldn't care less, but I understand that he murdered him. He's responsible for killing him, but Kuririn is responsible for keeping him dead. The same can be said for your analogy; the shooter is responsible for the man having a gunshot, but the doctor is responsible for not saving him when he was capable of it. They both have blood on their hands.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I have a chip on my shoulder about the Androids the same way you do Vegeta.

[Rostir]

Vegeta's highest part in the series was the Namek arc no doubt, he killed 4 people and displayed his power and ruthlessness very well.

[dbgtFO]

Well he actually killed more than four.
Vegeta killed Cui, Dodoria, an entire Namekian village, Zarbon, Guldo, Recoom, Butta & Jhees.

[Michsi]

Kami saying the Androids "are different" is him falling into the same stupidity as everyone else in this arc. The only reason 17 and 18 didn't kill anyone is because they had a purpose in going to kill Goku first. After that, it would be open season. I don't buy for one second the present Androids were any better than their future counterparts, and that they wouldn't have laid waste to the Earth once they killed Goku and needed entertainment. Watching them do whatever they wanted didn't amuse me, either, it just annoyed me.

There is plenty of proof in the manga and the anime that that what Kami said was true and we were given no reason whatsoever to doubt that.The difference between how present 18 and 17 act compared to those from the future is glaringly visible.And I don't see how having a purpose in going to kill Goku would prevent them from wanting to kill the others since they pretty much did whatever they wanted.

I don't feel bad for the truck driver at all; he was a moron (as is every single civilian in Dragon Ball, which precludes me from feeling any sympathy). If you see Super Saiyan Vegeta, you at least note he looks a little bit different than a normal person, and figure that maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't yell at something that's clearly inhuman. That doesn't let Vegeta off the hook, but again, Android 18 didn't care any more about people than he did; she didn't kill them because she pretentiously dismissed them as not worth her time, and that alone demonstrates an arrogance easily on par with Vegeta's.

A girl and a guy with crazy hair standing in the middle of the road , driver gets angry <- how does that make him a moron? We don't even know of he had the chance to get a good look at them. And anyway I'm talking about the act itself. The blatant disregard for life. There is always collateral damage in fights like these, but the others at least try to avoid it as much as they can.

The Androids only seemed more benevolent because they set out to kill Goku before doing anything else; Kami's "wanting to see what happens" is idiotic, especially when his prodigy's life is at stake. If he had merged with Piccolo and killed at least one of them, then Cell never would have been a threat.

I'm not one to defend Kami, since I think may of his actions and decisions are questionable, but again there was no reason to believe that what he said was false since we get plenty of evidence to support that statement.

[dbgtFO]

Kami saying the Androids "are different" is him falling into the same stupidity as everyone else in this arc. The only reason 17 and 18 didn't kill anyone is because they had a purpose in going to kill Goku first. After that, it would be open season. I don't buy for one second the present Androids were any better than their future counterparts, and that they wouldn't have laid waste to the Earth once they killed Goku and needed entertainment. Watching them do whatever they wanted didn't amuse me, either, it just annoyed me.

There is plenty of proof in the manga and the anime that that what Kami said was true and we were given no reason whatsoever to doubt that.The difference between how present 18 and 17 act compared to those from the future is glaringly visible.And I don't see how having a purpose in going to kill Goku would prevent them from wanting to kill the others since they pretty much did whatever they wanted. [...]
I'm not on to defend Kami, since I think may of his actions and decisions are questionable, but again there was no reason to believe that what he said was false since we get plenty of evidence to support that statement.

Since I agree with roidrage on this particular subject, I'd like to see the other proof.

[Michsi]

Kami saying the Androids "are different" is him falling into the same stupidity as everyone else in this arc. The only reason 17 and 18 didn't kill anyone is because they had a purpose in going to kill Goku first. After that, it would be open season. I don't buy for one second the present Androids were any better than their future counterparts, and that they wouldn't have laid waste to the Earth once they killed Goku and needed entertainment. Watching them do whatever they wanted didn't amuse me, either, it just annoyed me.

There is plenty of proof in the manga and the anime that that what Kami said was true and we were given no reason whatsoever to doubt that.The difference between how present 18 and 17 act compared to those from the future is glaringly visible.And I don't see how having a purpose in going to kill Goku would prevent them from wanting to kill the others since they pretty much did whatever they wanted. [...]
I'm not on to defend Kami, since I think may of his actions and decisions are questionable, but again there was no reason to believe that what he said was false since we get plenty of evidence to support that statement.

Since I agree with roidrage on this particular subject, I'd like to see the other proof.

The chapter where Trunks kills the androids from his timeline: wanton destruction, enjoy killing at random amd for no real reason, future 18's attitude when facing Trunks - wants to instantly kill him - compared to 18's attitude when facing Vegeta - wants to leave him alone <- for example

[dbgtFO]

Well I don't think those examples go against roidrage's main point.
His main point was that the only reason, why the present androids seem less evil is because they haven't reached the point in their life, where they don't have any objectives in life left.

[Michsi]

[quote="dbgtFO"]Well I don't think those examples go against roidrage's main point.
His main point was that the only reason, why the present androids seem less evil is because they haven't reached the point in their life, where they don't have any objectives in life left.[/quot]

These androids killed every single one of the Z warriors . The others didn't.