Dragon Ball Encyclopedia recruitment

[thedarkuniter]

Viz used "H ercule" and "Djinn Boo". Both are pretty questionable. The rest of the translations are fine though, name-wise at least.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Viz used "H ercule" and "Djinn Boo". Both are pretty questionable. The rest of the translations are fine though, name-wise at least.

Vegerot.

[Akumaito Beam]

Viz used "H ercule" and "Djinn Boo". Both are pretty questionable. The rest of the translations are fine though, name-wise at least.

Vegerot.

I kinda have to adamantly defend this whole Vegerot thing. I truly think it's sound reasoning seeing how there is no "to" at the end of Kakarot in the English version of both the anime and the manga. Fusion combines the first half of a name and the second half. Goten, Trunks and Goku Vegeta for example. So when it comes time to do Vegeta and Kakarot you get Vegerot while normally it would be Vegeta and Kakarotto. This is really Funimation's mistake not Viz's or alternatively both their mistake for not calling him Kakarotto from the beginning (although to my knowledge it's understandable because you normally cut off seemingly unnecessary vowels from proper nouns, right?)

People say Vegerot is a weird name and I can't tell them they're wrong because...well I'm not them but I'd wager in a lot of cases it's just incredibly unfamiliar so it feels wrong. Personally I don't think Vegerot sounds nearly as weird as Spopivitch, Pui Pui or a ton of other equally bizarre names in this universe.

I'll defend Djin too, not for being the most accurate translation of the word "Majin" but Viz has been taking translation liberties from day one so this is right alongside "The Jiggler" and "Cultivars" in my book.

That being said, there's no defending the pants on head stupid H-word nonsense. They go so far as to paint over his car and billboards to ignore any slight reference to his original name. That's obnoxious.

[Cipher]

Viz takes the approach of adapting most of the name puns rather than transliterating the name. While it's mostly viable, and you can argue it retains an experience that would otherwise be lost, I have a few qualms with it:

1) It's not internally consistent. It's kind of arbitrary what names do and don't get altered to better present the pun meanings. Especially when dealing with names that are puns in several different languages. For example, Saibaimen become Cultivars because Japanese readers would immediately have picked up on the cultivation pun with "saibai," and Viz apparently wants American readers to do the same. But Ginyu doesn't become Captain Milke. And Kakarotto is still a pun on "carrot" in Japanese. His Saiyan name isn't "Ninji" or anything. It's just kind of a mess.

2) It's not consistent with the franchise as a whole. Even if Viz had developed an incredibly consistent system and really stuck to their guns about retaining the actual puns, what's the point of renaming a character "Vegerot" in one adaptation when in all other adaptations and international merchandise refer to him as "Vegetto?" The name shows up on Japanese products for goodness' sake. Everyone who gave Mike crap one or two podcasts back about the "Blooma" mess, this is the same thing. Sure, it's easy to argue for "Vegerot," but why do so, when he's always, always been known as "Vegetto"? A little index or glossary could cue fans in on things lost in translation while allowing some uniformity.

3) At best, it works only for a manga adaptation. This is more of an aside, but it's also the sort of approach that would only ever work well for a manga adaptation. Any subtitled release of the series is going to have to use the literal names or risk being extremely awkward, as you'd hear the characters say "Saibaimen" but see the subtitles say "Cultivars." It's be extremely obvious. And again, why have two different set of English names in the first place?

So, I get what Viz is going for with a lot of its terminology. But it's full of even more head-scratchers than Funimation's. Its changes are almost as, if not just as, arbitrary, and they also lack franchise consistency.

[Akumaito Beam]

I totally agree with you on point one. I'd wager a part of it was probably them being sloppy but it's not implausible that there were just too many cooks in the kitchen and they didn't have any guidelines set in stone. I really wish they would have kept things more consistent in every sense of the word. Even some of the censorship like guns, swearing and racial editing was inconsistent from volume to volume. I'm fully with you on this.

I actually agreed with Mr.EX on the Blooma thing so that's probably some indication of what kinda person I am in this department. I've always been of the mindset that consistency outside of your product isn't a big deal so long as you're being accurate to the source material. If you have a unique way of translating I don't necessarily think you should care what other people are doing. There's huge benefits in adapting names and dialouge to make more sense to an English speaker or flow better in the English language. It can be worlds more immersive. Of course I think this just boils down to personal preference really on how much liberty you personally prefer a translation to have. Why not have a page dedicated on the back explaining their translation compared to the original to give accurate information on both names and meanings so nobody is left in the dark? It seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to not translate in this fashion because some people might become confused.

I think you're right with your assessment of subtitles. There is much, much less wiggle room in terms of translating name puns. They're two very different mediums, I'm not arguing that. I’m sorry if I implied that this would work exactly the same.

The difference between Viz and Funi as I brought up is accuracy. I think doing simple things like making clear name puns or changing dialouge to flow a little better in English is immersive and a lot less offensive than having Freeza screech unfunny grade school jokes at everyone. Something out of Viz that’s akin to that very example is Piccolo talking very elaborately. That annoys me more than Vegerot ever will. It changes who he is. Piccolo doesn't speak fancy, that's not his speech style and it's not fitting to his character. It's inaccurate and a random change for the sake of being a random change. That’s exactly the sort of thing translations need to avoid.

Overall, I think we can agree that to pull off what Viz was trying to do one would need to have a lot more consistency and they would need to pay real close attention to what they were doing at all times. It's clear neither of those things were really true at the end of the day for Viz.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I had this kinda long post typed up, and then Firefox crashed...I'm too lazy to recreate it. lol

In short, everything Cipher said. I wasn't saying that Vegerot was bad per say, just that they should have used Kakarotto from the start. I'm fully aware of the fusion naming scheme and why their choice makes sense, but that still doesn't make it right. Name changes irk me beyond belief. Changing spelling for a more recognizable pun or for pronunciation's sake (like Viz changing Buu's dog Bee to Bay) don't bother me too much, but completely changing someones name is unnecessary. As Cipher said, they could have just named him correctly and explained themselves in a translator's note or something. I will admit that I wouldn't be COMPLETELY against changing a character's name, but only if it means something too obscene for children in another language. Like if, for example (and one that makes no sense), Kuririn translated penis or something, I would understand why they'd want a different name for him. But just changing Vegetto to Vegerot because of a transliteration boo-boo once upon a time ago is a no-no. Vegetto existed before Viz started their translations (I think he was introduced in 95 and Viz's original run was 98, right?), they should have planned ahead. Not doing so is just as bad as Harmony Gold changing Goku to Zero IMO.

[Akumaito Beam]

I think it’s pretty fair to say they should have planned ahead and called Kakarot, Kakarotto. Hell, I’d say it’s absolutely necessary to do your research if you’re planning to translate in the fashion they did. That being I think it’s important that they played through their mistake and called him Vegerot. As was already mentioned, consistency was already a complete mess and it’s not like the name “Kakarot” was only brought up once and everyone had forgotten about it.

Goku being changed to Zero is a completely different ordeal than Vegetto to Vegerot. As I demonstrated you can see the reasoning behind what happened to create the name change to Vegerot even if you don't agree with it. Zero was something that was created from the beginning for (to my knowledge) zero reason other than it sounded neat.

Outside of that you seem like a person who wants a more literal translation and that's a totally valid complaint. ^_^

[Adamant]

Like if, for example (and one that makes no sense), Kuririn translated penis or something, I would understand why they'd want a different name for him.

If you want an actual example, the character Seskapile from Shagma apparantly got a name change in the English dub because his name is a (pretty obvious) pun on "sex appeal".

[Pokewhiz7]

Zero was something that was created from the beginning for (to my knowledge) zero reason other than it sounded neat.

I don't know Japanese, but don't the syllables in Goku mean emptiness or something?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That being I think it’s important that they played through their mistake and called him Vegerot. As was already mentioned, consistency was already a complete mess and it’s not like the name “Kakarot” was only brought up once and everyone had forgotten about it.

As inconsistent as they are with a lot of the other similar situations, I don't see why they felt the need to do so this time. Calling him Vegerot in one translation out of how many others just seems like an unnecessary division of the fan base and in the case of those new to the franchise, only causes confusion. Even Funimation fessed up to their mistake and called him the right name, even if the spelling doesn't make sense.

Goku being changed to Zero is a completely different ordeal than Vegetto to Vegerot.

I didn't say it was the same ordeal, I said it was just as bad. As I said before, changing a characters name in any fashion, besides maybe spelling, is taboo to me unless there is an extenuating circumstance like with the obscene names. It's like math. Its like they weren't paying attention and wrote down the wrong number in an equation, and then continued to work on it and realized they had made a mistake once they reached the very end. They got lazy in my opinion and took the easy way out, using their answer and then turned it in for a grade anyway. Their solution doesn't work, it doesn't equal the correct answer, therefore they failed. They get credit for trying, but that's useless.

[Herms]

I don't know Japanese, but don't the syllables in Goku mean emptiness or something?

悟空/Gokuu means "Aware of Vacuity" or various other possible translations. 空/kuu can mean void, emptiness, and the sky. "Zero" itself in Japanese is 零/rei.

[nonoitall]

Greetings, and sorry I'm a little late to the party (the board's spam filter was a little hesitant to let me post, and things have been busy as usual). I'm another admin from the DBE, and I just wanted to address some concerns and reiterate that we really are interested in receiving suggestions and input from fellow DB communities. It seems like VegettoEX's list was the most comprehensive, so my response will just quote from it, though I'm addressing others who share the same concerns as well.

BRANDING / PERCEIVED VALUE:
You'll have to excuse me in some regards, but since I do this for a living, I look at this stuff in ways that a lot of people (1) don't and/or (2) don't want to. The fact is, "Dragon Ball _____" (whether it's Wiki or Wikia or Encyclopedia or Whatever) is a damaged brand. I'm not even just talking about from within this community. Part of what I consider "my job" in running Daizenshuu EX and its assorted initiatives (website / podcast / community) is that I'm aware of what other communities are actively doing and saying. Like Herms said, comments about a wiki for the series either question its information, or outright dismiss it on principle -- DB Wikia really has caused that much damage to the idea of a general, fan-run wiki for the series. It really has. It doesn't matter if you call yourself something different (in this case, "Dragon Ball Encyclopedia"). They're assumed to just be one-in-the-same.

CHANCE OF SUCCESS:
Therefore, without a strong brand image to bank on, there is little chance of success. Yes, it's been damaged that much. Part of the reason our website's podcast was able to get so successful so fast was because it was launched in conjunction with an already successful brand which had a built-in community to support and push along its success. Someone could have easily come along and have just done "The Dragon Ball Podcast", but it never would have skyrocketed the way we were able to leverage what we already had. "Dragon Ball Encyclopedia" has nothing. Nothing at all. All it has is, "OK, well we recognize that other stuff kinda sucks..."

I agree, the lack of quality really has shot down the reputation not just of these various DB resources, but even the reputation of the DB fan base in general. I feel though, that the key to rectifying the situation is not more neglect, but a sustained effort to produce higher quality content. Up until the recent fork between the DBW and DBE, there was not really a conducive place to do this. The DBW has always attracted prepubescent DB fans with age-appropriate writing skills and imaginations about as well as a porch light attracts moths. (That's not to say all its users are like that at all, but it's the main demographic that gets drawn in when the DB series is coupled with Wikia's blogs and social features.)

When the DBE was forked, it shed any attempts to appeal to that demographic. As such, the DBE hasn't had many people around to improve things, though it is progressing slowly but surely. The difference a few motivated individuals could make would be substantial.

REQUIRED EFFORT:
As folks have already said, there is just so much wrong with so many different areas of all existing fan-wikis for the series... it's not even worth "fixing". It's that bad, and it would be a monumental task to "correct" it versus starting over from scratch. Who would ever bother with that? I sure wouldn't.

The beauty of a wiki is that you can start over without really starting over. So it would be easier to write a brand new Son Goku article than to fix the old one? Then there's no reason someone can't write a new Son Goku article and discard the old one! Simply because there's an old and broken article or section in place somewhere does not mean we're required to keep it. That being the case, there's really no way that 'fixing' the DBE would require any more effort than starting a completely new wiki. There is some good content and infrastructure there (quite a bit, actually) and it's just waiting to be complemented by more.

OWNERSHIP:
There's already a gigantic thread that details a lot of our vision, but the one important reason that we are doing our own is: control. That's right -- we would control it. We would own it. It would be ours. We would own the server it would be stored on, the domain that would point to it, anything else that interacts with it on a software level, etc. That ties in with...

ADMINISTRATION:
For it to be as successful and as authoritative as we all want it to be (and it deserves to be), well... this isn't a democracy. It would follow the established Daizenshuu EX + Kanzentai style guides for everything (extending to spellings, image sizes and types, formatting, design, etc.). It would be a part of us. It's already been stated that it will run off the same user base as this exact forum, taking care of any and all administrative "problems". Someone sucks / vandalizes? No problem; they're gone for good. Need to run up special permission groups? No problem. Done. Again, not a democracy. Content is king, and while the general masses will be leveraged and taken advantage of, the same general masses don't dictate HOW it gets done. I'm sure a lot of people don't want to hear comments like that. Too bad. Look at the existing wikis and realize why it needs to be different.

That all being said, there is absolutely no way Daizenshuu EX can put its support or advocacy behind a project like this that isn't our own. There's just too much wrong with it, and the effort would be worthless when compared with what our own vision and plans are.

While the DBE obviously can't become part of Daizenshuu EX or vice versa, it is my hope that our two communities could cooperate to pool our talents. We share your 'content is king' sentiment 100%; from day one, the DBE's goal has been to provide encyclopedic content, not social networking or inserting our opinion about how cool we think SSJ5 Gogeta would be into the articles. It would be a shame to divide our efforts and struggle to move two separate projects forward when they both have exactly the same goal. GamingBuddha mentioned and I can confirm that we're happy to promote reputable members from this community to administrative positions, and adopt changes to our policies and structure to better suit a content-focused environment.

And just to clarify one thing: We aren't necessarily asking for any official advocacy or commitment from Daizenshuu EX. All we're hoping for is that members from each community will be disposed to help and contribute to the other in a spirit of cooperation, not competition. Best wishes!

[nonoitall gets off his soapbox]