Pronunciation of "Saiyan"

[VegettoEX]

Ummm... what?

No, the "i" at the end of "macaroni" sounds similar to the "ee" sound in "knee", and I never even hinted at anything else. I am talking only about イ, here.

Are you confusing the "sai" in "saiya" with it as one giant sound, somehow? Because it's "sa - i", not "sai". The サ ("sa") and イ ("i") are two distinct syllables that are pronounced separate from one another. In quick talking it may sound like one syllable (thus the comparisons with the English word "sigh"), but it's technically two separate ones.

I don't know what to say except "I am not wrong", other than that maybe I haven't made it clear enough... but I think it's pretty gosh darn clear...

[Mountain]

This is definitely the trouble with having lead characters in a popular series with names that have debatable pronunciations. Although I don't have a problem, necessarily, with "Krillin", I personally use "Kuririn". It isn't that difficult to pronounce, with a little practice.

As far as "Bulma" goes, it just, at least in my opinion, doesn't get the pun across very well. "Bluma", "Blooma", and "Bloomer" do. I wonder if, originally, the intended Japanese pronunciation was "Blooma" or "Bloomer"; I always wonder the same about "Freeza" vs "Freezer". I suppose it doesn't matter, much, but it is definitely quite annoying.

[B]

I've seen people pull the, "Well, you're not talking in Japanese, you're talking in English, so who the mother-f'-in-eff cares?!" OK, then -- I'll start calling the main character "Gako" and his Z-era rival "Brontosaurus". We're talking in English, so who cares?! ^_~

How is that a counter to their point? Names are one thing, accents and emphasis are another. I've never liked the idea that I have to pronounce Son Goku "Soun Gokuu", because then I suddenly start talking with this Japanese accent, and I don't like that. I'm American, I speak English, and I speak with an American accent. Certain words are just going to sound a little different than their original pronunciations because of that.

I guess your point is that there's only one way to pronounce something and that changing a pronunciation is equivalent to mangling a name, but I don't agree with that at all. Just because I watch a foreign show in its original language doesn't mean I suddenly have to talk like them.

You're still probably going to tell me "Sun Gouku" isn't an "acceptable" pronunciation, and maybe you'd be right, but I don't mind being deliberately wrong once in a while, as long as I acknowledge that I am.

It's got nothing to do with "accent." If you can say the words cone, zone, shone, lone, bone, tone, and hone, you can pronounce the "Son" in "Son Goku" correctly.

As for "Goku," I like Adamant's Peru example. Do you say "Puh-ROO" or the incorrect "PEAR-oo?"

[VegettoEX]

We're straying very far away from the original topic of simply how to pronounce "Saiyan"... but...

Toriyama has plenty of character names that straight-up ARE the words they are puns on ("Trunks" and "Cell" where トランクス and セル are literally the exact words they're plays on) all meshed in with ones that are clearly plays on the words they are puns on (lots of rearranged and elongated syllables like "retasu" -> "taaresu").

It's all a balancing act. Combining what we know the names are puns on with what the author says about them with what other producers say about them combined with any spellings actually used in some official manner is the only way to go about coming to a personal decision about this stuff. And that's what spellings are for a series like this -- personal (mostly).

For Freeza, I find it pretty simple:

- The word "Freezer" is written in katakana as フリーザー (fu - rii - zaa)

- The character's name is instead written as フリーザ (fu - rii - za), dropping the elongated sound at the end

- Since it's not spelled exactly the same as its source word, my logic is that neither should the character's name when romanized into "English" / "our alphabet". In this case very specifically, I would only change the one part of the word that is different from the name pun basis (the end), while keeping the rest the same (just like the original kana). Thus, "Freeza" (the "free" is the same both in the "English" spelling as it was in the kana spelling, and the end is changed to "a" in the "English" spelling just as it was altered from a long sound to a short sound in the kana spelling).

"Bulma" is a weird one because it's an "English spelling" introduced authoritatively from the author right away, but is in contrast with how the characters actually pronounce the name (by reading the kana that spells out ブルマ). Long conversation best served elsewhere (like over in this old thread).

[Eddie]

This is definitely the trouble with having lead characters in a popular series with names that have debatable pronunciations. Although I don't have a problem, necessarily, with "Krillin", I personally use "Kuririn". It isn't that difficult to pronounce, with a little practice.

As far as "Bulma" goes, it just, at least in my opinion, doesn't get the pun across very well. "Bluma", "Blooma", and "Bloomer" do. I wonder if, originally, the intended Japanese pronunciation was "Blooma" or "Bloomer"; I always wonder the same about "Freeza" vs "Freezer". I suppose it doesn't matter, much, but it is definitely quite annoying.

Bulma doesn't get the pun across, but I also think it's a mistake to pronounce things exclusively in ways that mirror the pun. Would you pronounce Kakarot as something resembling Cacarrot (pronouncing it exactly like the orange vegetable)? Probably not. I've also never heard a fan strictly adhere to a set of names that accurately convey the puns. For example, many folks around here call the monster from DBZ movie 13 "Hildegarn". Does that really get the pun across, though? Let's look at what Herms wrote in his pun guide.

Hildegarn

Daizenshuu Explanation:“Then there’s the unusual unique naming, this time for Hildegarn from Dragon Fist Explosion!!~. The entire staff puzzled over what to name this enemy, who gave assistant producer Mr. Sei-ichi Hiruta a shock [the Japanese sound effect for shock is “ga~n”]. That being the case, they used Mr. Hiruta’s name: Mr. Hiruta went “ga~n”, Hiruta-garn, and so Hildegarn…This sounds like a lie, but it’s the truth.” [D6]
Source Spelling:: 蛭田/Hiruta+ ガーン/gaan
Name Spelling:ヒルデガーン/Hirudegaan

Wouldn't Hirutagaan or Hirutagarn get the pun across better? The assistant producer that the monster was named after was not named Hilde, his name is Hiruta.

[Cipher]

I know it should be "Sigh-an." I've taken more than five years of Japanese. I did a study abroad there for two months in high school. I understand the pun, and the pronunciation.

But I still say "Say-an," the way FUNimation popularized it. Because that's what most people know it as, that's what all ancillary merchandise in the U.S. uses, and frankly, as long as I understand where it actually comes from, why should I bother going against that?

Wouldn't Hirutagaan or Hirutagarn get the pun across better? The assistant producer that the monster was named after was not named Hilde, his name is Hiruta.

Well, no. Because while you can arguably get "Blooma" from ブルマ, you can't get "Hirutagaan" from ヒルデガーン, which definitely has a "de" sound. I've always stuck with FUNimation's "Hirudegarn" for the reasons you've listed though. I guess "Hirudegaan" would be the "closest," although "gaan" really has no English equivalent anyway. "Hildegarn" is one-hundred percent the result of fans having no idea what the pun was when they were first fansubbing, etc.

But ... this really has nothing to do with "Saiyan." I understand the way it should be pronounced, I have no problem with people using a more "accurate" pronunciation, but I'm always going to go with what has become a stateside colloquialism.

This is definitely the trouble with having lead characters in a popular series with names that have debatable pronunciations. Although I don't have a problem, necessarily, with "Krillin", I personally use "Kuririn". It isn't that difficult to pronounce, with a little practice.

This one, I waffle on. Half the time I type and say "Krillin," just because it's easier in the midst of an English sentence, and it's very familiar to everyone one. The other reason is that "Kuririn" is the sort of transliteration that loses the pun anyway. The latter half of his name comes from Chinese monks, a la "Shaolin." So, really, if you wanted the most authentic English version of his name, it would be "Kurilin." And at that point, "Krillin" is close enough. Neither commonly used name is all that correct, so I just go back and forth between "Krillin" and "Kuririn."

Really, I find the best thing to do with translating Dragon Ball names is to just know where the pun comes from, and acknowledge that you have no real system beyond that.

[Adamant]

As far as "Bulma" goes, it just, at least in my opinion, doesn't get the pun across very well. "Bluma", "Blooma", and "Bloomer" do. I wonder if, originally, the intended Japanese pronunciation was "Blooma" or "Bloomer";

Thing is, the pun isn't on bloomers, but on "buruma", those Japanese legless girl's shorts. These get their name from the English word "bloomers", yes, and can indeed be written/pronounced ブルーマー, similar to the English pronunciation, but also ブルマー, ブルーマ and, as we see in the series, ブルマ. The character's name isn't a name that just sounds like a word, it is that word. We see the exact same being the case with the rest of her family, too, which is why we write Trunks and Bra rather than Trunkus and Bura or whatever.
The problem, of course, is that her name is derived from a word that, while it doesn't directly exist in English, is derived from an English word, but the particular pronunciation/spelling Toriyama used (which seems to be the most common one, too) doesn't really sound all that much like the English word.

I always wonder the same about "Freeza" vs "Freezer". I suppose it doesn't matter, much, but it is definitely quite annoying.

That, however, was "Freeza". It's the word "freezer" with the last syllable shortened.

[Eddie]

Wouldn't Hirutagaan or Hirutagarn get the pun across better? The assistant producer that the monster was named after was not named Hilde, his name is Hiruta.

Well, no. Because while you can arguably get "Blooma" from ブルマ, you can't get "Hirutagaan" from ヒルデガーン, which definitely has a "de" sound. I've always stuck with FUNimation's "Hirudegarn" for the reasons you've listed though. I guess "Hirudegaan" would be the "closest," although "gaan" really has no English equivalent anyway. "Hildegarn" is one-hundred percent the result of fans having no idea what the pun was when they were first fansubbing, etc.

I use Hirudegarn myself, but I don't use the same emphasis Funimation uses. The reason I used Hirutagaan and Hirutagarn as examples was to highlight what the name might look like if we strictly focus on the pun aspect of the name.

[Ashura]

No, the "i" at the end of "macaroni" sounds similar to the "ee" sound in "knee", and I never even hinted at anything else. I am talking only about イ, here.

I don't know what to say except "I am not wrong", other than that maybe I haven't made it clear enough... but I think it's pretty gosh darn clear...

Your description pretty much goes 'it's like macaroni. Just note that it's not a long sound' which sort of makes it sound like you either pronounce macaroni without a long i sound (which you say isn't the case and I believe you - but people could take it that way), or else as a description that can be taken a few different ways and can become confusing. To tell someone 'it's like macaroni, only not exactly' is a really bad way to explain something without giving them some examples about what you mean other than 'it's shorter.'

Biideru and Macaroni make sense, but the blunted i sound -- which I tried to explain as 'macaronigh' ... maybe 'macaroneh' or 'macaronegh' would've been better on my part -- doesn't come through as such a strong explanation.

Mind you, I say this and can't come up with a more elegant solution other than 'think macaroni, only the 'i' at the end isn't a long sound like 'knee'.. it's more blunted like macaroneh' or something; I understand it's a hard concept to explain -- like how 'ru' at the end of things isn't a hard 'rue' -- but explaining it like you have it, I could see people extrapolating it down to Sa-ee-ya-jin just from taking macaroni at face value and not understanding what you mean about the blunted/short i.

I guess this is sort of like trying to explain Sakura to someone who says Sakoora, and the simplest thing you're able to come up with is Sockra.

[Herms]

Erm, sure it is. They're certainly not saying "bull - muh".

"Bulma" is a weird one because it's an "English spelling" introduced authoritatively from the author right away, but is in contrast with how the characters actually pronounce the name (by reading the kana that spells out ブルマ).

I really don't know what you mean when you keep saying stuff like this. Near as I can tell you seem to think that there's some other katakana spelling or Japanese pronunciation that would be closer to the way English speaks pronounce "Bulma", but there really isn't. The Japanese way of writing the English word "bull" (as in the animal) for instance is ブル/buru, and "Bulma" is simply that with a マ/ma slapped unto the end.

[Gaffer Tape]

No, the "i" at the end of "macaroni" sounds similar to the "ee" sound in "knee", and I never even hinted at anything else. I am talking only about イ, here.

I don't know what to say except "I am not wrong", other than that maybe I haven't made it clear enough... but I think it's pretty gosh darn clear...

Your description pretty much goes 'it's like macaroni. Just note that it's not a long sound' which sort of makes it sound like you either pronounce macaroni without a long i sound (which you say isn't the case and I believe you - but people could take it that way), or else as a description that can be taken a few different ways and can become confusing. To tell someone 'it's like macaroni, only not exactly' is a really bad way to explain something without giving them some examples about what you mean other than 'it's shorter.'

You have to remember that the vowel sound that we express as the "igh" in "sigh" is not actually a vowel sound, but two vowel sounds--a diphthong--combining the sounds of "ah" and "ee." And the way that sound is made in Japanese is the same way, by combining the sounds from those two corresponding kana. So you can't have an "igh" sound without "ee," like the "ee" that ends the word "macaroni."

[Ashura]

You have to remember that the vowel sound that we express as the "igh" in "sigh" is not actually a vowel sound, but two vowel sounds--a diphthong--combining the sounds of "ah" and "ee." And the way that sound is made in Japanese is the same way, by combining the sounds from those two corresponding kana. So you can't have an "igh" sound without "ee," like the "ee" that ends the word "macaroni."

Your explanation gets at the point I was trying to make about his explanation; explaining how we get that shorter, blunted sound. Maybe yours could be a bit more concise (though heaven knows mine wasn't as concise as yours), but looking at what he said through the glasses of someone who knows jack about Japanese, his would probably confuse the layman more than help them.

[TripleRach]

Erm, sure it is. They're certainly not saying "bull - muh".

"Bulma" is a weird one because it's an "English spelling" introduced authoritatively from the author right away, but is in contrast with how the characters actually pronounce the name (by reading the kana that spells out ブルマ).

I really don't know what you mean when you keep saying stuff like this. Near as I can tell you seem to think that there's some other katakana spelling or Japanese pronunciation that would be closer to the way English speaks pronounce "Bulma", but there really isn't. The Japanese way of writing the English word "bull" (as in the animal) for instance is ブル/buru, and "Bulma" is simply that with a マ/ma slapped unto the end.

If he's referring to the way FUNimation pronounces "Bulma," then "bull" is probably the wrong way to express it. They use a short U sound like the one in "butt" or "hull," rather than the one in "put" or "bull." The butt/hull U is typically equated with a Japanese A rather than Japanese U. Here's a lot of examples of "hull" being equated with "haru."

"Bull - muh" actually would be close to the Japanese pronunciation, as you've said. But I've never heard anyone say it that way.

(The FUNimation pronunciation also sounds kind of like "Bowl - muh" sometimes. I briefly thought her name was "Boma" when I first started watching the show.)

[Eddie]

If he's referring to the way FUNimation pronounces "Bulma," then "bull" is probably the wrong way to express it. They use a short U sound like the one in "butt" or "hull," rather than the one in "put" or "bull." The butt/hull U is typically equated with a Japanese A rather than Japanese U. Here's a lot of examples of "hull" being equated with "haru."

"Bull - muh" actually would be close to the Japanese pronunciation, as you've said. But I've never heard anyone say it that way.

(The FUNimation pronunciation also sounds kind of like "Bowl - muh" sometimes. I briefly thought her name was "Boma" when I first started watching the show.)

We weren't debating the Funi pronunciation. Mike just seemed to think that Bulma was inherently inaccurate and Bluma was more correct. The idea was that "Bulma" is not how the name was pronounced. I tried pointing out that "Bluma" is also not what is being said and that you lose a "u" sound either way.

[Rocketman]

As for "Goku," I like Adamant's Peru example. Do you say "Puh-ROO" or the incorrect "PEAR-oo?"

Depends on how you say Caesar.

[Metalwario64]

"Hildegarn" is one-hundred percent the result of fans having no idea what the pun was when they were first fansubbing, etc.

Then why does Simmons use it in his subtitles for Movie 13? I also thought that quite a while ago, someone knowledgeable in Japanese on this forum stated that Hildegarn was an accurate romanization of the name for one reason or another. Could be misremembering that.

Why do you say Hildegarn is wrong anyway?

[roidrage]

Names are one thing, accents and emphasis are another. I've never liked the idea that I have to pronounce Son Goku "Soun Gokuu", because then I suddenly start talking with this Japanese accent, and I don't like that. I'm American, I speak English, and I speak with an American accent. Certain words are just going to sound a little different than their original pronunciations because of that.

you can easily misread Goku unless there happens to be an extra "u" on the end. But really, I've been pronouncing Goku (and "Son Goku") the way I have for so long that I flat-out refuse to pronounce it any other way. No amount of fussing, lecturing, or eye-rolling emoticons is going to get me to change that. Same thing with Kami.

Yes, I am that obstinate

Obstinate, maybe, but not particularly consistent.

Huh?

All I've said is that I'm going to pronounce "Son Goku" the way it looks, even if it is incorrect, which I'm sure it is.

Here's my problem; why the long "o" in "Son"? If there was a macron over the "o" in Romanization (as there is with the "u" in "Goku") or a "u" after it, then I'd see the idea. But there's not, at least not in any Romanization I've ever seen. If every "o" is a long one in Japanese, why bother ever placing a macron over it when Romanizing to begin with? Not only that, it's impossible to tell whether the characters themselves (such as Piccolo, who almost always refers to Goku as "Son") are pronouncing it one way or the other just by listening. and I watch Dragon Ball on my computer with headphones. Plus, Son Goku is "Sun Wukong" in Chinese. I would say the two languages are somewhat close to each other, so it would make more sense for "Son" to appear in both, rather than "Soon" in Chinese and "Soun" in Japanese.

As for putting emphasis on the first syllable in "Goku" rather than the second...I don't really have an excuse, it's just force of habit. What bugs about the pronunciation in the dub of "Saiyan" more than anything else is that Funimation isn't consistent. "Saiyan" vs. "Saibaman", "Kai" vs. "Kaio-ken".

[Rocketman]

What bugs about the pronunciation in the dub of "Saiyan" more than anything else is that Funimation isn't consistent. "Saiyan" vs. "Saibaman", "Kai" vs. "Kaio-ken".

English pronunciation, not consistent? Surely you jest.

[DemonRin]

Here's my problem; why the long "o" in "Son"? If there was a macron over the "o" in Romanization (as there is with the "u" in "Goku") or a "u" after it, then I'd see the idea. But there's not, at least not in any Romanization I've ever seen. If every "o" is a long one in Japanese, why bother ever placing a macron over it when Romanizing to begin with? Not only that, it's impossible to tell whether the characters themselves (such as Piccolo, who almost always refers to Goku as "Son") are pronouncing it one way or the other just by listening. and I watch Dragon Ball on my computer with headphones. Plus, Son Goku is "Sun Wukong" in Chinese. I would say the two languages are somewhat close to each other, so it would make more sense for "Son" to appear in both, rather than "Soon" in Chinese and "Soun" in Japanese.

Because it's a different language.

I've never met anyone who went "Well, Ahm in Amurica, So Ahm gonna say 'Bahl-eht" instead of "Bahl-Ay" when Ah read that thur 'Ballet' word.!"

No, People pronounce it "Bahl-ay" with a silent T because it's a FRENCH WORD.

Do you say "Croissant" "Kroys-aynt"? Or "Kross-Ahnt"? You say it the 2nd way, because it's a FRENCH WORD.

Son Goku's name is Japanese name, you say it the Japanese way. The "Son" should be pronounced "Sohn", like "Sewn" (as in "The Blanket was Sewn up")

But don't take my word for it, ask this guy.

[roidrage]

Here's my problem; why the long "o" in "Son"? If there was a macron over the "o" in Romanization (as there is with the "u" in "Goku") or a "u" after it, then I'd see the idea. But there's not, at least not in any Romanization I've ever seen. If every "o" is a long one in Japanese, why bother ever placing a macron over it when Romanizing to begin with? Not only that, it's impossible to tell whether the characters themselves (such as Piccolo, who almost always refers to Goku as "Son") are pronouncing it one way or the other just by listening. and I watch Dragon Ball on my computer with headphones. Plus, Son Goku is "Sun Wukong" in Chinese. I would say the two languages are somewhat close to each other, so it would make more sense for "Son" to appear in both, rather than "Soon" in Chinese and "Soun" in Japanese.

Because it's a different language.

I've never met anyone who went "Well, Ahm in Amurica, So Ahm gonna say 'Bahl-eht" instead of "Bahl-Ay" when Ah read that thur 'Ballet' word.!"

No, People pronounce it "Bahl-ay" with a silent T because it's a FRENCH WORD.

Do you say "Croissant" "Kroys-aynt"? Or "Kross-Ahnt"? You say it the 2nd way, because it's a FRENCH WORD.

Son Goku's name is Japanese name, you say it the Japanese way. The "Son" should be pronounced "Sohn", like "Sewn" (as in "The Blanket was Sewn up")

But don't take my word for it, ask this guy.

That doesn't answer my question as to why there's no macron over the "o" when there almost always is in Romanization of Japanese. There's nothing to indicate it should be pronounced with a long "o".

I'm going to pronounce it like I always have "son", even if it is a "Japanese" name. End of discussion. I'm perfectly fine with being willfully ignorant about something so trivial, as long as I acknowledge I'm wrong.