Using SSj3 while alive

[Zephyr]

Goku was only able to reach SSj3 for the first time because he was dead, and the only reason he was able to do so was because his non-living body was able to handle the amount of ki needed to reach the level. Yet after coming back to life, he was still able to reach the form (albeit for a shorter time). A friend of mine just pointed out to me that it doesn't make much sense for him to only be able to reach the form because he was dead, and yet still be able to power up to it after coming back to life.

Does this not make much sense to anyone else, or am I off on some facts? If you guys wouldn't mind explaining this in depth to me so that I may do the same for my friend, that would be wonderful.

[Michsi]

It think it's basically the same idea as it with being able to have a physical body yet not needing to eat. You need food for energy yet Goku had plenty of that without it while being dead. His energy was limitless. When he given back his live body he was bound back to the same rules as every mortal. Limited energy, hunger, fatigue.

I'm not sure I managed to explain that well though

[goldsaint13]

It's a strange thing indeed...

It seems that as a living being he can't hold that extreme power for a long period because it drains up all his energy fast... It's not even clear if he can reach his maximum power in the living form...

I think that his training in the 10 years waiting for Uub is just to master the use of SSJ3 being able to use the complete x4 multiplier for a longer time... His promise to Kid Buu was to be able to fight him and defeat him without needing to be helped by Fusion, stronger allies (Gohan/Gotenks) or Earth power by Genkidama...
And to defeat Kid Buu with his own power he needs to be able to mantain SSJ3 for long and reaching the max power possible...

Anyway, the whole thing is not so clear... It seems that on Earth against Fat Buu he was holding back because he could use the full power if he wanted, but the more power he used, the more his time on Earth would have been consumed fast (the same as SSJ3 Gotenks has a reduced time with Fusion)...
As a living he doesn't have time limits but after a few minutes his energies are all wasted and he possibly lose the power to turn even SSJ1... He tried to reach the full strength against Kid Buu but he wasn't able to keep even that power anymore...
Gotenks doesn't suffer from the difficulties of being alive while he uses SSJ3, but he is a fused warrior, a lot stronger and made up by twu genius kids that turned SSJ with no need to train (unlike Gohan himself)...

[Bussani]

Discovering the form, learning to become it at will, and learning to stay that way are all harder than actually using the form, I think. Like how learning to ride a bike is harder than actually riding a bike.

[hleV]

the only reason he was able to do so was because his non-living body was able to handle the amount of ki needed to reach the level.

Proof?

[Herms]

Goku was only able to reach SSj3 for the first time because he was dead

He happens to reach it for the first time while he is dead, but is it ever said that it would have been impossible for him to reach it while alive?

[Zephyr]

Goku was only able to reach SSj3 for the first time because he was dead

He happens to reach it for the first time while he is dead, but is it ever said that it would have been impossible for him to reach it while alive?

That's a good question actually. I may have just assumed this, or could have subconsciously incorporated some fanon in there.....which is why I made the thread to begin with, to get my facts straight.

[Herms]

Let's see...after he uses it for the first time to fight Boo, Goku tells Piccolo that Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in the afterlife, because in the living world it uses up too much energy (he blames this on how time exists in the living world, but not the afterlife). So at this point he's not even talking about being dead versus alive, but on where you use the technique. Then in the final battle with Boo after he drops out of Super Saiyan 3, he tells Vegeta that using the technique with a living body eats up too much energy, but with a dead body it's fine. I think that's all that's said on the subject, at least in the manga. So it's much harder to use while alive, but not impossible (since we see Goku use it alive). Going by that, it sounds like it'd be much harder to learn for the first time while alive, but not necessarily impossible.

[Zephyr]

Okay that makes sense. Thank you for clearing that up Herms.

[Kaboom]

What I find interesting is how, despite training even harder than Goku and not being TOO far behind him... Vegeta didn't even know Super Saiyan 3 existed.

Back during the Androids/Cell arc, he was the one who first perceived the idea of going "beyond" Super Saiyan... he knew there was something there that he could try to reach for, and so did Goku. Eventually that whole deal was fully realized in Super Saiyan 2.

But come the Boo era, Goku was the only one who seemed to have any idea of there being something even further. If Super Saiyan 3 doesn't require supernatural or otherworldly circumstances to reach, you'd think there'd at least be some sort of awareness of it, even if one hasn't actually attained it yet.

[Herms]

Back during the Androids/Cell arc, he was the one who first perceived the idea of going "beyond" Super Saiyan... he knew there was something there that he could try to reach for, and so did Goku. Eventually that whole deal was fully realized in Super Saiyan 2.

On the other hand, Vegeta couldn't conceive of Full Power Super Saiyan on his own. While he's the one who first mentions the idea of surpassing Super Saiyan, his own efforts in that regard only led to the abortive Grade II and III forms, and he was as shocked as everyone besides Goku when he saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in action, so apparently he hadn't had any prior conception of that form. All in all it doesn't seem like on his own he was able to imagine any concrete, viable ways of surpassing Super Saiyan. Maybe something similar happened with Super Saiyan 3: he had some vague idea that there could be something beyond, but was unable to make any fruitful headway towards it. We also don't know how long it took him to reach Super Saiyan 2 during those seven years of training; he might have had to devote most of those years towards obtaining 2, so he didn't have much time to think about the possibility of 3.

[Son_Gohan]

Well according to the SEG, Vegeta was primarily concerned with physical training, and Toriyama points out there being a limit to training just your muscles, which Vegeta had likely reached and attained SSj2 by. Even as a SSj2, he probably wasn't at the level Gohan was during the Cell Games, so for there to be an even higher form he had yet to attain may have been unfathomable for him.

[Fox666]

It seems that achieving a new form is a hard task. But whenever you saw it already, it's quite easy to copy. Even the Super Saiyan 3 was quickly copied by Gotenks. For that reason I would guess Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan 2 in a small period of time.

[Son_Gohan]

I don't know if I'd say that; Gohan experienced difficulty transforming into SSJ the first time, despite witnessing the form many times prior. Vegeta and Trunks were also unable to master SSj to the degree that Goku & Gohan displayed, after a second trip in the RoSaT, despite being fully aware of the concept and its benefits beforehand.

After achieving SSJ3 with Gotenks for the first time, Goten makes the remark, "To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”. Which wouldn't suggest that it was something they tried imitating, but merely what resulted from their hard training.

[Rocketman]

Gotenks was training for like a week.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, it was probably just that Gotenks was a magical fusion that could break the boundaries.

[hleV]

Gotenks was just that strong to easily achieve SS3 and not feel the strain of the form.
In my eyes it's only hard/impossible to transform into SS3 for the first time if you're on Vegeta's level of power. Goku didn't have strain in afterlife and that's why it was a lot easier for him. If Vegeta was as strong as Gotenks, he would have transformed into SS3 just as easily IMHO.

Imagine that SS3 drains 1 Ki (some sort of its unit) per second.

Goku: 100 Ki:

• Afterlife: SS3 doesn't drain Ki (or drains much less);
• Alive: SS3 wears out in 100 seconds and strain is felt of losing Ki, but Goku at least has experience with SS3.

Gotenks: 1000 Ki: strain isn't felt that much because he has much more Ki to keep the form.
What-if Vegeta: 1000 Ki: achieves SS3 just as easily as Gotenks and doesn't feel the strain that much.

[Rocketman]

Gotenks doesn't feel the strain because it drains his fusion time, not his energy.

[Fox666]

Apparently not, Gotenks suffer the same effects of Goku.

Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

So apparently, like Goku, the transformation drains Gotenks energy. I guess that when you are completely out of energy for whatever reason the fusion is undone?

Besides I don't see why Gotenks wouldn't have his energy drained. The transformation increases you power proportionally. If your power is 10 and it increases to 20, you will run out of energy twice as fast. If your power is 20 and it increases to 40 the effect should be same, don't?

[lash]

It's pretty clear with all the quotes shown, that the main issue with SSj3 is not energy, or the type of body one has. It is time. Time itself does not cooperate with SSj3. Which one could make a case why it's virtually impossible for a non fused individual to learn the transformation in the living world with time present. Maybe the reason why Gotenks was able to learn it in the RoSaT was because of the reverse time dilation? Dunno...just some random thoughts...

SSj3 doesn't like time, the two don't mix. Time uses up the user's SSj3 energy at an absurd rate: This is why Goku can barely keep the form up on Earth. This is also why Goku's one day left over time was consumed in an instant. This is also why Gotenks can only maintain it for 5 minutes...when with Fusion he should have full access to his power for a full 30 minutes.

Having a living body just makes the user burn out SSJ3 energy quicker then if they were dead. But the user can still use the full power of SSJ3 efficiently, just in a shorter amount of time.