Most overrated characters in terms of power?

[jackjack]

I don't even know how to answer you. The character don't even exist, I won't argue about that.

Goku's words against yours, is all.

Again, you can't consider it a "statement", since Gotenks didn't existed since them.

Still not sure why Gotenks' existence matters. If Goku says even KKx5 can't defeat Vegeta, he can't. KKx5 Goku doesn't need to exist for that statement to be considered factual.

Besides there were plenty of occasions which characters didn't predicted a fusion outcome accurately. In Vegetto case everybody was surprised how much better he actually turned to be.

Potara more powerful? Rival boost?

Of ourse I wouldn't call Goku's case a inaccurate prediction, since Gotenks turned out great as he mastered Super Saiyan 3 in no time.

It would still be inaccurate if Gotenks in his first Super Saiyan state ended up unable to do a thing to fat Boo.

It makes no difference, since these are also "statements" of Goku.

What?

Contradicts the manga? Not. Contradicts what you are saying? Seems to be the case.

You mean what the manga's main character's saying?

Plus, you've yet to justify Piccolo willing to let them face Boo in about a day, without needing them to improve inside the rosat first - something they must do before facing merged Boo. Why? Because they would get killed; not so much with fat Boo, though, unless you're prepared to argue that Piccolo wanted everyone's last hope dead.

[Fox666]

Plus, you've yet to justify Piccolo willing to let them face Boo in about a day, without needing them to improve inside the rosat first - something they must do before facing merged Boo. Why? Because they would get killed; not so much with fat Boo, though, unless you're prepared to argue that Piccolo wanted everyone's last hope dead.

That never happened. If you check the manga, as soon as Gotenks turned Super Saiyan for the first time, it already leads to the part of the story which leads to the apparison of Evil Boo.

So simply there wasn't time for Piccolo to make any judgement of that kind. As far I remember the only mention of the RoSaT not being used by Gotenks was made by Goku, but that was also before he actually ever existed.

Of course it could be that Piccolo was planning of not using the RoSaT, but such notion was never given in the manga. (Besides I should say, I don't know if Piccolo has an idea of how a clash beetween Gotenks and Majin Boo would be, he bet Gotenks without turning in Super Saiyan could defeat Evil Boo, and later trusted he could do so as he fought in Super Saiyan state. And the fact is that even as a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks failed to do it)

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Goku STATED Gotenks won't loose. It's a FACT that Gotenks will not loose. Goku is the most reliable character and denying this is going against the manga.

However, Gotenks actually lost, twice. It doesn't matter what reason it was for, be because Majin Boo transformed or whatever, Goku was WRONG.

[CatouttaHell]

Fusion dance would have solved anything... I agree I underrated him... But not by that much... Goku was still convinced his SSJ3 max power would have defeated him... A power below SSJ3 Gotenks...
Unless, of course, Goku misjudged Kid Buu because the demon was holding back most of his power... That's a possibility, while remote... I don't know why I should see Kid Buu as stronger than he is shown...

Goku underestimated Boo and then later admitted he'd have to train to beat Boo one-on-one. The Daizenshuu even says a full power Goku can't defeat Boo.

Goku wasn't talking about fighting him inside... He said "even going out, I'll have no chance against him"... So Vegeta planned to reduce his power even more detaching Fat Buu...

It's possible Goku's Ki sensing was off due to him being so ridiculously small and being inside of the guy he was trying to sense. We don't know what sensing Ki is really like but I'd imagine in those circumstances, especially when you've never been in them before, it'd be rather hard to do it accurately. Goku for some reason thought Boo was stronger than him while Boo basically implied that they'd lose for the sole reason that they were now smaller than fleas. Hell, Goku didn't even know they were that small until he tried to make a hole in Boo and was told this, so not knowing that may have contributed to him sensing incorrectly.

Maybe he was talking about the enemies they fought directly... Not even a fool could ever think to compare Kid Buu to Super Buuhan... Neither in the deepest dreams... I can understand the whole Super Buu - Kid Buu argument... But Super Buuhan is someone only Vegetto could ever defeat...

I don't see what Gohan-Boo has to do with anything. It's simply saying Chibi Boo is the strongest in the universe at the time he was defeated. Gohan-Boo didn't exist anymore when Chibi Boo was defeated.

That's of course refered to when Gohan and Gotenks were dead...

If Chibi Boo killed Goku and co then Gohan and Gotenks would be instantly sent back to the living world to try to stop him, so it's likely taking them into account too.

Of course!!! Gohan had been pulled out all his possible strength he would have as SSJ3 reaching his max possible limit... That's why he is not only way above SSJ3 Goku, but also SSJ3 Gotenks that is a Fusion...


He is not called "The Strongest Warrior" for nothing... It's not a statement, it's the name of his transformation...

SSjin 3 brings a Saiya-jin's power out to its limits as stated in the Daizenshuu so Gouk's power is also at its limit. And he clearly ISN'T the strongest warrior since Gotenks-Boo, Gohan-Boo, Vegetto, and possibly Goku and Chibi Boo are above him.

I think that was 100% Cooler but unlike Freezer, he doesn't get bulked up using 100%... That's a flaw for Freezer... He is not used to use his 100% and as Goku said he started to lose strength soon after he reached the 100%... Cooler is probably trained to use his 100% and he doesn't consume much energy like Freezer does... Becoming bulked up is the sign of a great tension and fatigue that shouldn't be needed to simply fight at 100%...
Added to a full control of his 100%, Cooler has another transformation, but it's THAT transformation that makes him stronger than Freezer...

50% Freeza wasn't bulked up and didn't strain him. Hell, IIRC he could even get up to 70% without any strain or bulking up. I don't see why the Coola that Base Goku fought wouldn't at least be that high up. It's very plausible that his 50% or 70% was on par with 100% Freeza or that he could bring out his full power without any strain due to having more control of his power. Freeza sat around suppressed all day and likely had so much trouble using his full power for that reason. We never even see Coola outside of his true form so we can safely assume he's always in his true form and may have mastered its power, and thus pushed himself into his fifth form.

Coola's fifth form could be like SSjin 2 and his true form like FP SSjin, while Freeza's 100% is like normal, strainful SSjin, if that makes any sense.

Just think that Goku might have been constantly using Kaiohken x20 (that is something he could have got better into) and Cooler never fought Freezer in his 100%, so that he believed his minor brother to have a power of less than 100.000.000...
With this I'm not saying that Cooler final form doesn't surpass even 100% Freezer anyway... Only that Cooler may not yet surpass him with the 4th form...

Of course... Freezer never went beyond the second form, unless when he fough his father and, we can imagine, Cooler himself... Cooler was probably talking about Freezer final form, not above that 50-60% he always used (because he never used 100% before the fight with Goku)...

I don't see why Coola wouldn't know how powerful his own brother is. And Goku used Kaio-ken x20 (or some unknown multiplier) against Fifth Form Coola but he was never shown or suggested to have used any version of Kaio-ken against True Form Coola. I'm not saying it isn't possible. Anime-wise it didn't show that he was using a Kaio-ken x10 against 50% Freeza until Kaio-sama stated that he was using it, so it is very possible he was using some Kaio-ken against True Form Coola.

Well, not impossible, but if we plan to redirect the Movie common sense on the canon railroad, it's way more likely that Cooler simply never new what Freezer's true power really was because he never used it...

Everything's possible. I personally don't really bother to make the movies work with the canon material as it's often impossible. Movie 13 has a SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks > Ultimate Gohan chain which doesn't fit into the canon material in the least. It's the same with Movie 5 IMO.

The thing is simplier than it seems... They played cocky in the beginning thinking their opponent was the weakest Buu... Then they realized that even Goku's power was not enough and they would have needed the new generation or the fusion to win... Then Vegeta, knowing that they had a couple of trump cards, tried the most risky way, to involve the humanity... As long has they had the shoulders covered by the kids, they could risk and gain a truly meaningful victory (the best of Gohan's pwning performances would never have matched Mr. Satan and the humans that actually save the Earth for real... )

That's one, perfectly valid interpretation. Personally I don't think Vegeta trusted the kids at all. Whether it is because SSjin 3 Goku is far above Ultimate Gohan or he simply saw all of their incompetence against Boo and didn't think they'd be able to win even if Boo is a good deal weaker than they are simply because they'd somehow screw up again. He absolutely refused to fuse with Goku again (and it is indeed very Vegeta-like to illogically place his pride above everything else.) Thus using the power of the Earthlings to create a Genki-Dama was the only thing left that he was willing to support at all.

As they seem to hint, Vegeta could actually have used it if strictly needed, but he absolutely didn't want to )...

I don't know, man. Something like the Metamorian fusion seems like something you'd be able to easily do after seeing it done once, but considering how long it took Goten and Trunks to do it properly, I find it hard to believe that Vegeta could go and easily do Metamorian fusion if necessary just because he saw it done from the Otherworld once or so.

This scenario is actually to be considered... I would add that Gotenks and Gohan were well known for their overmatching power compared to Goku and Vegeta... But strenght is not all.
We just know how naive are Gohan and Gotenks and Goku knows it either... Expecially Gotenks... He would have likely ended up wasting his 5 minutes playing around with the already overplayful Kid Buu... A too big temptation for Gotenks... It could have created some problems...

Either way if Gohan and Gotenks are both needed to beat Boo (as is implied) and there's a danger of them being absorbed or defeated then Boo and Goku can't be fodder for them. They already knew about Boo's absorption and it's unlikely it'd be a danger to them if Boo is a weakling. Can you imagine Vegetto being absorbed by Boo by accident?

Maybe they didn't imagined we would have argumented the thing this much... Saying Vegeta and the others and not Goku and the others is curious, although the meaning is the same...

Goku is way more powerful than Vegeta and co and if Gotenks surpassed Goku then it'd make a lot more sense to mention him by name, because then it'd be very obvious that Gotenks surpassed everyone. It doesn't make much sense to mention Vegeta if Gotenks also surpassed Goku since Vegeta is 4x weaker than Goku.

Well, Super Buu may only have reatained a small percentage of his full possible power because of some good influence, while with Buff Buu uses it fully...

In my example, if Super Buu is Fat Buu (10) + Kid Buu (20), he may be 29 instead of 30 due to the small good influence...
Buff Buu would be Super Buu's true power...

And also... South Kaiohshin was the strongest among Kaiohshins... But what about Dai Kaiohshin, the fat one?

We was calm and gentle, at the point of weakening Majin Buu, but what about his power? He was not a Kaiohahin, but the ruoler of the Otherworld... How do you know he tried to pull the sword and failed?


The Majin Buu system is that much confused that it's impossible to say anything trying to calculate assorbtions, if not using the characters' statements...

None of the Kaioshins could pull the Z-Sword out. Granted, it's not explicitly stated that South Kaioshin tried to do it. But considering what a strength freak he apparently was, and how little there probably was to do in the Kaioshin Realm day to day, I don't see why he would have never even tried to. Dai Kaioshin is still a Kaioshin and South Kaioshin was stated to be the strongest Kaioshin. So going by statements/feats: SSjin 2 Gohan (or SSjin, whatever you believe) >> South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin

All I'm really trying to say is that Shin Boo > Chibi Boo just seems REALLY fishy to me because Shin Boo was flat-out stated to be a good deal below Buff Boo, who is Chibi Boo with a total weakling added to him. I'd be okay with this if there was a statement anywhere in the manga or any of the guidebooks that South Kaioshin somehow added more power to Chibi Boo than he actually had somehow or if there was any instance of something like this happening somewhere but I'm pretty sure neither exist.

Boo is definitely an unexplainable magical being but there's simply no instances stated or shown where he can just pull a giant wad of power out of his arse.

He may be a serious threat for side reasons... Maybe not the power, but the wilderness, or even the possibly best regenerative capacity (he is the less human but also the harder to hurt... Super Buuhan is made bleeding, a thing that would sound impossible with Kid Buu, despite he is a real kid compared to him)...

Anyway, my point was that it would be impossible to retcon Freezer above Cell... The same here... If Gotenks is made a lot stronger than Goku, then it may be possible to rearrange a bit, but not to revert things up...

The other Boos, minus Mr. Boo and Fat Boo, weren't exactly nice, reasonable people either. Shin Boo killed everyone on Earth at the same time for no reason whatsoever and both Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo tried to destroy the Earth as well. Gotenks-Boo would've killed Goku very quickly if Gotenks didn't revert to base inside him before he could.

Meanwhile if he had the mind of Chibi Boo he'd drag the fight out for ages to torture Goku and have as much fun as possible. All of the other evil Boos are dangerous, pure evil bastards as well, and when you consider Chibi Boo's tendency to play with everybody like a puppy plays with a ball, it actually seems like he's LESS dangerous than they are.

We don't know how much the emergency situation could have made the gods bent the rules... Maybe there's a burocracy... Old Kaiohshin actually gives his life to Goku, a thing against the rules I assume... Then everything could have heppened... But I think only Kaiohshin has the authority to bring someone to the sacred planet of Kaiohshins... It couldn't have been Enma's or lower Kaioh's decision...

Goku could always have used Shunkan Ido to bring Gohan, Gotenks, etc over to the Kaioshin Realm, just like he did to bring Vegeta and Mr. Satan over when Chibi Boo destroyed the Earth. All that Enma Daio-sama would need to do was allow them to return to the living world, and considering he did to Vegeta I don't see why he wouldn't let Gohan and co leave. Vegeta was an evil bastard who had spent his whole life causing genocide gleefully. It was only a few steps beyond sending Cell back to fight Boo if you look at it like that. Not to mention he sent Vegeta back against overwhelming odds like Gohan-Boo. Sending Gohan and co back to fight the weaker Chibi Boo seems like a decision he'd make without even thinking considering he made the decision to send Vegeta back at all IMO.

Goku said that he would have been killed while returned outside... Nothing specifically about being small at the moment...

Anyway, Goku could never be equal to Super Buu because Gotenks is... And Gotenks is surely stronger than him... The thing can be proven either way...

Gotenks is above Shin Boo going by their fight IMO. I think Gotenks is closer to Gohan than he is to Shin Boo but that's me. Once Gotenks got down to the business right before he defused he was kicking Shin Boo's arse badly. And like I said above, it's likely Goku's Ki sensing ability was thrown off while shrunk down and inside Boo. Boo's ability wasn't thrown off and going by his statements, his sole reason for being so confident was that Goku and co were smaller than fleas and inside of him. He had the homefront advantage.

He was talking about SSJ1 Gotenks... And if he could predict that SSJ1 Gotenks could be at least stronger than his SSJ2, it could be never ever be even on par with him as SSJ1...

It was a prediction. Goku is not an omniscient god, even he is capable of a mistake once in a blue moon. IMO the fact that he gave Gotenks two days may mean he was planning on getting Piccolo to send him into the RoSaT if needed.

On Earth he couldn't... He would have wasted all his time left before having done it... But he theorically had the hidden power to win... He didn't try it out because he wanted to use his time left to teach the Fusion...

Goku thought he could beat Chibi Boo with a full power SSjin 3 Kamehameha, and Chibi Boo is >>> Fat Boo. Considering how much time he wasted playing with/stalling Fat Boo I don't see why he couldn't have just instantly hit him with a full power Kamehameha and obliterated him. He even said he could've beaten that Boo to Vegeta later on.

Goku is not weak... He is simply weaker than Gotenks AT LEAST comparing with him in the same SSJ form...

And this is aside from how much power Kid Buu could actually have...


Going by absurd, Kid Buu could even be equal to Vegetto and using only his 1% to match SSJ3 Goku... This doesn't change anything, he would have to use 2% to match SSJ3 Gotenks and 3% to match Gohan, so to say...


As I said before, Kid Buu's power could be how you like it to be... As long as Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, there's nothing disproven by the manga, small retcon or not...

Well Goku said that he and Vegeta should train so next time they can beat Boo even one-on-one. That right there places a cap on where Boo can be since they're implied to get rather small increases in power by that time in the story. I don't think anybody thinks that Goku and Vegeta can just go and surpass Vegetto in their lifetimes, or even years after Chibi Boo is defeated. Personally I view him being above Ultimate Gohan but still a good deal below Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo.

The entry seems to be talking about Boo in general, not necessarily any specific form. Goku fought with the revived Buu (fat form). Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem (merged form), but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu (pure form); it's treating them all as one character, Majin Boo, who can be considered the strongest at several points in the storyline.

The only other Boos that can be considered the strongest are Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo and they can basically count as fusions. So if they're counted why not just call Goku and Vegeta the strongest because their previously existing fusion (Vegetto) is even more powerful than Boo's previously existing fusion?

[jackjack]

That never happened.

That's my point...it never happened. He never told them that they were too weak or needed to get stronger.

So simply there wasn't time for Piccolo to make any judgement of that kind.

All it would take is one panel. Keep grasping at straws, though.

As far I remember the only mention of the RoSaT not being used by Gotenks was made by Goku, but that was also before he actually ever existed.

Yet another reason to believe this guy knew what he was talking about.

Of course it could be that Piccolo was planning of not using the RoSaT, but such notion was never given in the manga.

Isn't Piccolo only telling to them to use it after Boo's transformation enough of an indication? I'm sorry if you don't see that.

However, Gotenks actually lost, twice. It doesn't matter what reason it was for, be because Majin Boo transformed or whatever,

What kind of ass-backward logic is this?

Goku was WRONG

You're trying way too hard.

The only other Boos that can be considered the strongest are Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo and they can basically count as fusions. So if they're counted why not just call Goku and Vegeta the strongest because their previously existing fusion (Vegetto) is even more powerful than Boo's previously existing fusion?

Not even sure what you're trying to say.

Super Boo is the strongest when he's first introduced (he calls himself the strongest before Gohan arrives, mind you). Even Fat Boo, when Goku returns to the afterlife, can be considered the strongest. Goku was already dead and wasn't even supposed to be fighting anyone to begin with (stated). Piccolo didn't call the boys their only hope for shits and giggles.

[goldsaint13]

When it comes to power, I don't think that Toriyama ever "forget" that Evil Buu, Gotenks or Gohan were far superior to Pure Buu or Goku.

Once SSj3 Goku and Kid Boo were mentioned in the same thread, I kind of figured this would turn into "that" debate.

Of course Tory never forgot that... Thisa debate is redundant but I can't find the reason why...

Someone assume there's a retcon... Possible... But while everything happening after the supposed retcon keeps to being possibly interpreted with the rule of Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, you could NEVER interpret what happens before the supposed retcon thinkg as Goku being stronger...
Further on, the manga should be interpreted as a whole, you can't divide "before" from "after"... They are meta-arguments... Out of the story flowing...

So, basically, I would place him around SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta power. It seems right. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less, it doesn't matter. With that kind of power it would still be very impressive and if Gotenks improved enough to achieve SSJ2, he would be powerful enough to really have a chance of beating Fat Buu.

That's it!

So, as you can see, its not that clear in the manga, since I think you will agree with me when I say that are enough arguments in the manga to also support my opinion.

The manga makes it clear that SSJ1 Gotenks is at least stronger than SSJ1 Goku... May it be SSJ1 Gotenks </= SSJ2 Goku, SSJ1 Gotenks = SSJ2 Goku, SSJ1 Gotenks >/= SSJ2 Goku, SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ2 or SSJ1 Gotenks </= SSJ3 Goku (assumed with half of his power on Earth)...
You can place SSJ1 Gotenks in a place you like along this scale... This won't change anything beside that SSJ3 Gotenks will be >, >>, >>>, >>>> or >>>>> SSJ3 Goku... It would change the gap, but not that SSJ3 Gotenks is no doubtedly stronger than SSJ3 Goku...

Just assume that 1 Kili is 1.000.000 and that SSJ1 Goku is 3.000.000.000...

SSJ2 Goku would be 6.000.000.000... Let's assume Fat Buu to be 10.000.000.000... Goku SSJ3 max power would be 24.000.000.000, halved 12.000.000.000...


SSJ1 Gotenks could be 5.000.000.000 (</= SSJ2 Goku), 6.000.000.000 (= SSJ2 Goku), 7.000.000.000 (>/= SSJ2 Goku), 8.000.000.000 (> SSJ2 Goku) or 11.000.000.000 (</= SSJ3 Goku halved)...

Being Goku SSJ3 max 24.000.000.000, we would have SSJ3 Gotenks possibly: 40.000.000.000, 48.000.000.000, 56.000.000.000, 64.000.000.000 or 88.000.000.000...

Far above than SSJ3 Goku in any case...


The supposedly official, while fake, power levels scan I posted, played it the most equilibrated way giving SSJ1 Goku a 3.000.000.000 and SSJ1 Gotenks *only* a 4.000.000.000... This still places SSJ3 Gotenks at 32.000.000.000... There's no way SSJ1 Goku could ever be even equal to SSJ1 Gotenks... The same as SSJ3...
Before knowing that SSJ3 was SSJ1 x8 some tried to argument that SSJ3 was supposedly more effective for Goku than for Gotenks, while it's absurd because SSJ3 is always SSJ1 x8...

Goku STATED Gotenks won't loose. It's a FACT that Gotenks will not loose. Goku is the most reliable character and denying this is going against the manga.

However, Gotenks actually lost, twice. It doesn't matter what reason it was for, be because Majin Boo transformed or whatever, Goku was WRONG.

You cannot blame Goku on this... Everything he said was about Fat Buu... Super Buu changed everything drammatically...

Goku underestimated Boo and then later admitted he'd have to train to beat Boo one-on-one. The Daizenshuu even says a full power Goku can't defeat Boo.

This will produce doubts on the effective strength of Kid Buu that could even be far above Goku, but this won't change the fact that Goku was, and remains, below Gotenks...

It's possible Goku's Ki sensing was off due to him being so ridiculously small and being inside of the guy he was trying to sense. We don't know what sensing Ki is really like but I'd imagine in those circumstances, especially when you've never been in them before, it'd be rather hard to do it accurately. Goku for some reason thought Boo was stronger than him while Boo basically implied that they'd lose for the sole reason that they were now smaller than fleas. Hell, Goku didn't even know they were that small until he tried to make a hole in Boo and was told this, so not knowing that may have contributed to him sensing incorrectly.

Goku was not talking about that specific situation, but about being outside again...

And he knew Super Buu's power from the previous battles, he didn't felt his power from inside, he knew it by the time Super Buu born and always knew only Gotenks and later Gohan could have defeated him...

I don't see what Gohan-Boo has to do with anything. It's simply saying Chibi Boo is the strongest in the universe at the time he was defeated. Gohan-Boo didn't exist anymore when Chibi Boo was defeated.

Neither Super Buu existed anymore... That means like I said... Kid Buu is the strongest compared to the other Buu existent at the time, Fat Buu... No comparisons with Super Buu and the above...

If Chibi Boo killed Goku and co then Gohan and Gotenks would be instantly sent back to the living world to try to stop him, so it's likely taking them into account too.

Kid Buu was not in the living world at the moment... Anyway, it simply didsn't take them into account... Since they are stronger than Goku, it's not sure than if Goku would lose, they would too, unless Kid Buu is really far stronger than he looks or he may be impossible to pulverize even when you are stronger than him...

A friend of mine has this feeling... That Kid Buu has a power equal to SSJ3 Goku and so he would be badly pwned by SSJ3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan... But calling them to fight would have been useless because Kid Buu would have been constantly destroyed and regenerated like it was nothing... Gotenks would have wasted his time, Gohan would have fought infinitely easily destroying Buu any time and him easily regenerating again and again, like a game...
Only a power like the full energy Genkidama could have destroyed him once and for all...

That's a possible explanation... Gohan himself while pwning Kid Buu badly, couldn't have destroyed him...

I don't think so because I read in the manga that a full charged attack from SSJ3 Goku could have done it and I have no reason to disbelieve it, so Gohan would have made the work done with ease...

But I admit that my friend's explanation can't be disproven... Neither can some of yours, as long as Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, that can't be absolutely changed, unless you take a rubber and delete the Fusion saga chapters and also when Goku said Super Buu to be impossible for him to being defeated without Fusion...

SSjin 3 brings a Saiya-jin's power out to its limits as stated in the Daizenshuu so Gouk's power is also at its limit.

Goku's limits are infact far below Gohan's as he always said...

And he clearly ISN'T the strongest warrior since Gotenks-Boo, Gohan-Boo, Vegetto, and possibly Goku and Chibi Boo are above him.

Goku will be never even close to Gohan, while Kid Buu is unknown... He may be equal to Goku and so below Gohan, or above Goku and equal/stronger than Gohan... Surely is that Gohan >> Goku... And to me, Kid Buu is more or less equal to Goku because that's what the manga said... Then you can assume Kid Buu was holding back... This I don't know...

The others are fused characters... Gohan is the strongest unfused and even stronger than some of the fused ones...

50% Freeza wasn't bulked up and didn't strain him. Hell, IIRC he could even get up to 70% without any strain or bulking up. I don't see why the Coola that Base Goku fought wouldn't at least be that high up. It's very plausible that his 50% or 70% was on par with 100% Freeza or that he could bring out his full power without any strain due to having more control of his power. Freeza sat around suppressed all day and likely had so much trouble using his full power for that reason. We never even see Coola outside of his true form so we can safely assume he's always in his true form and may have mastered its power, and thus pushed himself into his fifth form.

Until this point I partially agree... But no one knew about 100% Freezer power... And Cooler is stronger than Freezer only with the 5th form...

Coola's fifth form could be like SSjin 2 and his true form like FP SSjin, while Freeza's 100% is like normal, strainful SSjin, if that makes any sense.

Somehow, but that gap is too excessive... Cooler couldn't get far from the likes of some hunderd of millions at best...

I don't see why Coola wouldn't know how powerful his own brother is. And Goku used Kaio-ken x20 (or some unknown multiplier) against Fifth Form Coola but he was never shown or suggested to have used any version of Kaio-ken against True Form Coola. I'm not saying it isn't possible. Anime-wise it didn't show that he was using a Kaio-ken x10 against 50% Freeza until Kaio-sama stated that he was using it, so it is very possible he was using some Kaio-ken against True Form Coola.

Freezer never showed his 100% to anyone... That's why Cooler judged Freezer as his 50% thin form... Anyway, I assumed just what you said, that Goku was using Kaiohken like he did with the x10, without exterior signs... In that case he might have been using the Kaiohken x20 constantly and assuming his base power may habe been 4 millions instead of 3 millions, he would have reached 80 millions, that is above 50% Freezer and that's why Cooler, assuming Freezer's power was just that, believed Goku to have surpassed him in base form...

Everything's possible. I personally don't really bother to make the movies work with the canon material as it's often impossible. Movie 13 has a SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks > Ultimate Gohan chain which doesn't fit into the canon material in the least. It's the same with Movie 5 IMO.

That would be the exact opposite of the canon: Gohan > Gotenks > Goku, but I don't think it's the case... The problem of Hirldegarn is that he can't be hit because he turs smoke... Goku simply found a way to hit the monster... But if Gotenks would have been able to hit him, he would have played volleyball with him...

That's one, perfectly valid interpretation. Personally I don't think Vegeta trusted the kids at all. Whether it is because SSjin 3 Goku is far above Ultimate Gohan or he simply saw all of their incompetence against Boo and didn't think they'd be able to win even if Boo is a good deal weaker than they are simply because they'd somehow screw up again.

Goku could never be even close to Gohan, so Vegeta might have imagined the kids or Gohan to mess things up, but as what he said, he simply wanted to make the humans win the battle...

He absolutely refused to fuse with Goku again (and it is indeed very Vegeta-like to illogically place his pride above everything else.) Thus using the power of the Earthlings to create a Genki-Dama was the only thing left that he was willing to support at all.

He would have never used Fusion even before, but he did when he was forced to, against Super Buuhan that was invincible otherwise... Kid Buu was clearly a smaller threat and he so refused to use the Fusion in place of different solutions...

I don't know, man. Something like the Metamorian fusion seems like something you'd be able to easily do after seeing it done once, but considering how long it took Goten and Trunks to do it properly, I find it hard to believe that Vegeta could go and easily do Metamorian fusion if necessary just because he saw it done from the Otherworld once or so.

From his words it's clear that he could execute it if he wants to... Vegeta followed all the kids training and eventually learned it... Or maybe he tried it while he was alone although he'll never admit it even under tortures...

Either way if Gohan and Gotenks are both needed to beat Boo (as is implied) and there's a danger of them being absorbed or defeated then Boo and Goku can't be fodder for them.

It's not implied that they are both needed... It may be, like not... That's indeed true that they could be absorbed...

They already knew about Boo's absorption and it's unlikely it'd be a danger to them if Boo is a weakling. Can you imagine Vegetto being absorbed by Boo by accident?

Vegetto planned ahead the barrier thing because he was smart... Otherwise he would have been absorbed... Super Buuccolo was a lot weaker than Gohan but he absorbed him anyway...

Goku is way more powerful than Vegeta and co and if Gotenks surpassed Goku then it'd make a lot more sense to mention him by name, because then it'd be very obvious that Gotenks surpassed everyone. It doesn't make much sense to mention Vegeta if Gotenks also surpassed Goku since Vegeta is 4x weaker than Goku.

Agree... But saying Vegete and the others is the same as Goku and the others or even Yamcha and the others, just to say...

As for being strange indeed, it's strange...

None of the Kaioshins could pull the Z-Sword out. Granted, it's not explicitly stated that South Kaioshin tried to do it. But considering what a strength freak he apparently was, and how little there probably was to do in the Kaioshin Realm day to day, I don't see why he would have never even tried to.

I can agree on this because he is still a Kaiohshin...

Dai Kaioshin is still a Kaioshin and South Kaioshin was stated to be the strongest Kaioshin. So going by statements/feats: SSjin 2 Gohan (or SSjin, whatever you believe) >> South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin

Dai Kaiohshin is like God, the absolute leader of the Otherworld... When they talk about Kaiohshin they talk about East, West, North and South... South was the strongest among the four, but Dai Kaiohshin is not clearly counted... He may have been the strongest by far but he was too good and gentle to fight...

Beside this things that cannot be either proven or disproven... Have you ever asked yourself why Kid Buu should ever have absorbed the Kaiohshins?

I only saw Buu absorbing someone when he was cornered...

I would think to this if I was you...

All I'm really trying to say is that Shin Boo > Chibi Boo just seems REALLY fishy to me because Shin Boo was flat-out stated to be a good deal below Buff Boo, who is Chibi Boo with a total weakling added to him. I'd be okay with this if there was a statement anywhere in the manga or any of the guidebooks that South Kaioshin somehow added more power to Chibi Boo than he actually had somehow or if there was any instance of something like this happening somewhere but I'm pretty sure neither exist.

Maybe it's not South Kaiohshin (the mentioned *weakling*) but Dai Kaiohshin, the God of the Shins...

It's a possibility...

Anyway I see that as Super Buu being Kid Buu + Fat Buu without a small part of the possible power... Buff Buu instead uses that power at 100%... Kid Buu drops below losing a consistent part...

Boo is definitely an unexplainable magical being but there's simply no instances stated or shown where he can just pull a giant wad of power out of his arse.

The real possible retcon and the confusing mess is more about Buu's forms that the fact of Gohan > Gotenks > Goku... On those three there are no doubts... But on Buu's form there are many...

The other Boos, minus Mr. Boo and Fat Boo, weren't exactly nice, reasonable people either. Shin Boo killed everyone on Earth at the same time for no reason whatsoever and both Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo tried to destroy the Earth as well. Gotenks-Boo would've killed Goku very quickly if Gotenks didn't revert to base inside him before he could.

Meanwhile if he had the mind of Chibi Boo he'd drag the fight out for ages to torture Goku and have as much fun as possible. All of the other evil Boos are dangerous, pure evil bastards as well, and when you consider Chibi Boo's tendency to play with everybody like a puppy plays with a ball, it actually seems like he's LESS dangerous than they are.

Yes, I meant that in any of Super Buu's form there's still reason... They are evil but not yet driven by only instincts like Kid Buu is...

Goku could always have used Shunkan Ido to bring Gohan, Gotenks, etc over to the Kaioshin Realm, just like he did to bring Vegeta and Mr. Satan over when Chibi Boo destroyed the Earth. All that Enma Daio-sama would need to do was allow them to return to the living world, and considering he did to Vegeta I don't see why he wouldn't let Gohan and co leave. Vegeta was an evil bastard who had spent his whole life causing genocide gleefully. It was only a few steps beyond sending Cell back to fight Boo if you look at it like that. Not to mention he sent Vegeta back against overwhelming odds like Gohan-Boo. Sending Gohan and co back to fight the weaker Chibi Boo seems like a decision he'd make without even thinking considering he made the decision to send Vegeta back at all IMO.

That's absolutely true...

It wouldn't have made sense either to use a Shenron wish to bring them there since not just Goku, but Kaiohshin himself could have teleported them there as long as they were revived (not to mention bringing them from Outherworld as dead ones with the halo)...

This is something it makes me think that battle is improvised... It was not planned and it's part of the retcon...

It would not make sense even if Tory would have made Gohan weaker than Goku (impossible thing, but follow me...), because they were desperate with Vegeta almost killed to gain time for Goku... Gohan would have AT LEAST be of some help, unless we imagine a scenario where he is also weaker than Vegeta...

Gotenks is above Shin Boo going by their fight IMO. I think Gotenks is closer to Gohan than he is to Shin Boo but that's me.

It can be...

Once Gotenks got down to the business right before he defused he was kicking Shin Boo's arse badly. And like I said above, it's likely Goku's Ki sensing ability was thrown off while shrunk down and inside Boo. Boo's ability wasn't thrown off and going by his statements, his sole reason for being so confident was that Goku and co were smaller than fleas and inside of him. He had the homefront advantage.

Goku talked about the power of Super Buu he knew from before, not to what he may have felt at that time...

It was a prediction. Goku is not an omniscient god, even he is capable of a mistake once in a blue moon. IMO the fact that he gave Gotenks two days may mean he was planning on getting Piccolo to send him into the RoSaT if needed.

Probably... But he never imagined Gotenks to reach SSJ3... So he knew Gotenks could have defeated Fat Buu without SSJ3... Goku could never ever do that... So Gotenks is stronger... You can lower his SSJ1 power the amount you feel, but he will ever be above SSJ1 Goku AT LEAST!!!

Goku thought he could beat Chibi Boo with a full power SSjin 3 Kamehameha, and Chibi Boo is >>> Fat Boo. Considering how much time he wasted playing with/stalling Fat Boo I don't see why he couldn't have just instantly hit him with a full power Kamehameha and obliterated him. He even said he could've beaten that Boo to Vegeta later on.

He could teorically... But the more power he would have drawn out, the faster the time would have flowed... He wanted to teach Goten and Trunks the Fusion not just to beat Fat Buu but to be self-sufficient for the future...

Well Goku said that he and Vegeta should train so next time they can beat Boo even one-on-one. That right there places a cap on where Boo can be since they're implied to get rather small increases in power by that time in the story. I don't think anybody thinks that Goku and Vegeta can just go and surpass Vegetto in their lifetimes, or even years after Chibi Boo is defeated.

That's why Kid Buu can't be that much stronger than SSJ3 Goku as I said... And so he is weaker than Gotenks...

Personally I view him being above Ultimate Gohan but still a good deal below Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo.

May it be like this, Goku would never have been able to beat him one on one, even in 1000 years of training... Because he simply can't get even close to Gohan's limits that are above his by nature...

The only other Boos that can be considered the strongest are Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo and they can basically count as fusions. So if they're counted why not just call Goku and Vegeta the strongest because their previously existing fusion (Vegetto) is even more powerful than Boo's previously existing fusion?

Super Buu himself is a fusion... So Kid Buu is the strongest unfused Buu like Gohan is the strongest unfused Z-Fighter...

Kid Buu is the strongest because all the Buus that are stronger than him are all fused, including Super Buu...

[rereboy]

and he tried to stop them from going to Earth.

No, he didn't. Stick to facts, please.

Er...

This pretty much says it all. I didn't even read the other stuff you quoted, sorry, this is just too big to miss and makes me not want to read anything else.

They fuse as SSJ and become SSJ Gotenks. Piccolo says "impressive, bla, bla, lets see what you can do" or something similar without seeming too convinced he actually has a chance against Fat Buu.

Then Gotenks says "ah, lets go down to Earth" or something similar and Piccolo yells "What? No!" or something similar as he takes off and tries to stop him by going after him.

So... Yeah... According to you, the "facts" are that Piccolo was OK with Gotenks leaving and didn't try to stop him. He didn't even went after him, right?

I'm sorry, but when someone tells you to "stick to facts" when they are disagreeing with one of the few things that everyone can call a fact in Dragon Ball, you just know there is no point in continuing the discussion.

[goldsaint13]

Don't forget that Piccolo stopped Gotenks also because he had wasted most of his time flying around Earth and sleeping waiting for Piccolo to catch up with him since the Nakkian was obviously far slower...

So Piccolo tried to stop him because the Fusion was about to end, not because he necessarily believed Gotenks couldn't have won yet...

[rereboy]

Don't forget that Piccolo stopped Gotenks also because he had wasted most of his time flying around Earth and sleeping waiting for Piccolo to catch up with him since the Nakkian was obviously far slower...

So Piccolo tried to stop him because the Fusion was about to end, not because he necessarily believed Gotenks couldn't have won yet...

No, I'm talking about when they were still on Kami's palace.

Piccolo tried to stop SSJ Gotenks from going to Earth right when SSJ Gotenks suggested that and took off, and Piccolo actually went after him to stop him.

The question is, why? Well, basically I think it implies that Piccolo thought that they still had to better themselves before actually risking a fight with Buu. Which is coherent with what he said right when they fused into SSJ Gotenks. He stated that his power was impressive but he wasn't sure if it would do (aka, be enough to have a chance of beating Buu) or something similar to that.

So basically, Piccolo wasn't that sure of his power and thought that they weren't ready. The fusion went perfect, so obviously it wasn't the actual fusion that had to be improved but what Gotenks could do.

When Piccolo caught up with Gotenks, only then did he mention to himself that their fusion was out of time. Only then was that a issue. When SSJ Gotenks took off to Earth and Piccolo tried to stop him, Gotenks still had the full 30 minutes left, so that wasn't the reason why Piccolo tried to stop him in the first place.

Sorry, but aren't you being too arrogant, considering the subject?

I don't think so.

Hmm... Might want to check again. I actually went back and read all your other quotes, you know.

You basically say that I can't prove my opinion. Well, duh. I pretty much stated that. My whole point was that there are enough arguments in the manga to place SSJ Gotenks around SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku or higher. It depends on the interpretation.

My interpretation on the subject was that he would be around SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku pre-Rosat. But, like I said, I didn't actually say that this is what the manga absolutely says... I just said that there enough arguments in there to be a valid position, just like there are enough arguments to place him higher.

And I concluded my post by saying that placing him higher is not wrong at all, but given what we see, its also possible to place him around SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku without that being wrong.

However, you, on the other hand, just state that the interpretation is wrong when you actually have no more substantial proof than other people with other interpretation, like I stated.

You criticize me by saying that my whole argument is not based on actual proof, just my opinion and interpretation, when your argument is also not based on actual proof, just your opinion and interpretation.

You cling to a few quotes and situations as arguments for your opinion, as do I.

However, the difference between us is that I admitted from the start that there are various valid interpretations and various arguments to be made in the manga, and I don't intend for my interpretation to be the absolute truth, since I can see why other people would have other interpretations that are no more wrong than mine, basically because its obvious that the manga is not that clear on the subject, while you, on the other hand, simply believe your interpretation to be the truth with no more actual evidence than other people and you don't simply admit that its possible to have another valid interpretation on this ambiguous subject. Isn't that kind of arrogant, like Fox666 said?

Especially if you gonna demand other people to stick to facts when you are disagreeing with a rather obvious one.

[jackjack]

Piccolo yells "What? No!"

Except he doesn't say that at all.

tries to stop him by going after him.

Again, where do you get the notion that he's trying to stop him?

So... Yeah... According to you, the "facts" are that Piccolo was OK with Gotenks leaving and didn't try to stop him. He didn't even went after him, right?

Apparently, going after him means trying to stop him to you.

I'm sorry, but when someone tells you to "stick to facts" when they are disagreeing with one of the few things that everyone can call a fact in Dragon Ball, you just know there is no point in continuing the discussion.

I'm sorry, but you need to get off your high horse.

You basically say that I can't prove my opinion.

No, actually, I said that "if you're placing them around SSJ2 level, I can safely say that you're wrong."

You criticize me by saying that my whole argument is not based on actual proof, just my opinion and interpretation, when your argument is also not based on actual proof, just your opinion and interpretation.

I don't see how it's just "my argument" when it's flat-out stated more than once. And my argument isn't based on interpretation, either, considering it's based on quotes that aren't up for interpretation.

[Kaboom]

Let's try to keep our attitudes in-check, please. Besides, I think we're also delving a little too far off-topic now.

[VegettoEX]

Agreed. If you're at the point where you're picking apart and responding to one-line statements that scroll and scroll and scroll, you're no longer having a conversation, and are simply being dicks to each other. That's certainly not in the spirit of this website and community (never mind against the rules), so knock it off and get back to having a gay ol' time!

(Wiiiiiiiii~~~lmaaa~!)

My answer? Bear With Sword™.

[Fox666]

I don't see how it's just "my argument" when it's flat-out stated more than once. And my argument isn't based on interpretation, either, considering it's based on quotes that aren't up for interpretation.

If you really believe that your opinion is not based on interpretation, it's impossible to argue with you. Besides, it seems like you are the only one here who sees it as flat-out stated in the manga, nobody else is able to see that.

[goldsaint13]

So basically, Piccolo wasn't that sure of his power and thought that they weren't ready. The fusion went perfect, so obviously it wasn't the actual fusion that had to be improved but what Gotenks could do.

Oh, yes... I think that Gotenks was around SSJ2 level or a bit more, but not that much above SSJ2 to have 100% chances to defeat Buu...
Piccolo eas not fully convinced of his power... That means Gotenks may have had a small chance, but still far from being totally trustable... Expecially because he had a time limit...

If someone would say that Gotenks is around Goku SSJ2 level I would possibly agree... Or at least, not disagree...

As the story is told, I always thought he was above SSJ2 Goku but still to far from SSJ3 to have a decisive chance...

However, the difference between us is that I admitted from the start that there are various valid interpretations and various arguments to be made in the manga, and I don't intend for my interpretation to be the absolute truth, since I can see why other people would have other interpretations that are no more wrong than mine, basically because its obvious that the manga is not that clear on the subject, while you, on the other hand, simply believe your interpretation to be the truth with no more actual evidence than other people and you don't simply admit that its possible to have another valid interpretation on this ambiguous subject.

Gotenks matter is actually confusing... Not as much as Buu's though...


Anyway, as I said, many interpretation of Gotenks powers can be possible... I only say that there's a limit... As strong or as weak you can view him, he could be never placed even on par with Goku, not to mention below... As the same SSJ form I mean... I'm not saying that SSJ2 can't be equal to SSJ1 Gotenks...

Let's try to keep our attitudes in-check, please. Besides, I think we're also delving a little too far off-topic now.

Not by much...

We were trying to explain that Goku is overrated... He is strong, but ANY fused character is no match for him...

[jackjack]

If you really believe that your opinion is not based on interpretation,

Again, it really isn't, due to the simple fact that what I'm defending is flat-out stated in the manga. It's not something you can just dismiss by saying "Gotenks lost to a transformed Boo, so whatever Goku said about the previous Boo was wrong" like you've attempted to do. Do you honestly think you'd be taken seriously in a real debate with that type of flawed reasoning?

it's impossible to argue with you.

It shouldn't be impossible if you know the difference between what's up for interpretation and what's not. For instance, saying Recoome has a battle power of over 40k is an opinion, whereas saying 2nd form Freeza has a battle power of over a million is not an opinion.

Besides, it seems like you are the only one here who sees it as flat-out stated in the manga, nobody else is able to see that.

That's appeal to the majority, a logical fallacy.

[goldsaint13]

It's not something you can just dismiss by saying "Gotenks lost to a transformed Boo, so whatever Goku said about the previous Boo was wrong"

Of course... It's like when Nail said Piccolo that fusing with him he would have easily defeated Freezer... It was true... But refered as 1st form Freezer, not 2nd...

[dbgtFO]

Besides, it seems like you are the only one here who sees it as flat-out stated in the manga, nobody else is able to see that.

That's appeal to the majority, a logical fallacy.

God, I hate when people use that as a counter. It's right up there with the "people who disagree with me are overanalyzing fanboys." crap.

Anyways disregarding Goku's comments because of Fat Buu transforming, which Goku wouldn't possibly know would happen is just silly.

Nail and Post merger Piccolo were both sure that the power received from fusion would be enough to own Freeza and they would have been proven right, if it wasn't for the fact that Freeza could transform again and again.

In either case this doesn't mean the merger of Piccolo & Nail wasn't stronger than the Freeza they knew of at the time, just like it doesn't mean that Gotenks wasn't stronger than the Buu, Goku knew of at the time.

EDIT: Dammit goldsaint

[VegettoEX]

A legitimate logical fallacy (which it was) is not the same as a random dismissal. jackjack absolutely has you there in that respect. If you can't counter it without scoffing and dismissing the logical fallacy by itself, you don't have anything to stand on.

Also, is there a reason you folks can't be nice to each other while doing this? It's very simple. Try it out before your accounts have action taken against them .

[dbgtFO]

I should have worded it better. I actually agree with what Jackjack said and the thing I hate is, when people counter something with "the majority of the people is with me, therefore I'm right" card.

[Drayenko]

I agree with jackjack. When the kids fuse (In SSJ of course) Piccolo says something like "You have an amazing energy. I'd like to see your moves, surprise me!" To which Gotenks says "You sure you want to do it here? I could destroy the Palace. I'll show you down there." Then he takes off a Piccolo just says "Agh" ... I think he is just following him to "see" his moves but not actually trying to stop him. He does try to stop him when the Fusion is about to end, but that is for another reason...

[jackjack]

That's how I see it. Gotenks wasn't even going to fight Boo. What would Piccolo stop him for? He wanted to see their movement in the first place. If you take a look at his body language when Gotenks (both base and SSJ) goes to fight Boo, that's what trying to stop someone is supposed to be. I'm still confused as to why the guy thinks it's "one of the few things that everyone can call a fact in Dragon Ball," when in fact I honestly doubt any reasonable poster would agree with it.