Errors/dubious info made by the Daizenshuu

[Ussj Future Trunks]

I just want to clarify why everyone thinks we should take the guidebook with a grain of salt.

[CatouttaHell]

I found no errors in the Daizenshuu. People like to claim it's full of bullshit because it contradicts their fan interpretations of the manga.

[VegettoEX]

I just want to clarify why everyone thinks we should take the guidebook with a grain of salt.

For the record, there are 10 daizenshuu and a wealth of other guide books and supplemental materials released since the series' debut. To toss just one book (or even just the one series of books) in the mix is a little borderline-disingenuous (or at least naive) to the amount of work put into everything else.

It's also a question, and a very personal one, of what you actually expect of a guide book. Should it just regurgitate information already plainly stated in the source material? Should it expand upon it? Should it correct mistakes or contradictions? Should it add entirely new information? Who should be in charge of what gets printed?

No group is going to 100% agree with each other on the answers to all of those questions, so ultimately there's no real answer to it at all...

[Fox666]

There are plenty of small errors (i.e. Tenshinhan profile lists one of his battles was against no.19, while it actually was against no.17). There are just a few of blatant errors, but I suppose you really can't create 7 guidebooks without any kind of story-related misunderstanding.

Besides, there are lot of "errors" identified by fans because they want to take everything literally. Especially concerning power-related arguments.

[goldsaint13]

I found no errors in the Daizenshuu. People like to claim it's full of bullshit because it contradicts their fan interpretations of the manga.

That's it...
As it happens with other mangas Guidebooks...

For example the Gohan supposedly weakened in Buu's saga... Daizenshuu gives the right interpretation, simply... And reading the manga with that interpretation, everything works fine... Of course without Guidebooks correct line, many things are opened to various views and often more than one can't be either proven or disproven...
Guidebooks are there to clean the debates of many possible but wrong interpretations... Although many debates remain open and it happens that a Guidebook may open up new debates on things that have been appearently clear in the manga but they weren't instead...

[VegettoEX]

Well, "interpretation" is a whole other conversation to be had, but I don't think that's worth getting into here (particularly with all the cliché Buu forms/strengths discussions). And yet, that still ties in with the question of "What do you actually expect of a guide book", and whether or not you want it to be a list of facts that are already plainly detailed, expand upon them, add even more information, etc...

[Ussj Future Trunks]

I haven't actually read the Daizenshuu but does it state the errors I thought it made, like Tien having Kaioken, Bojack being part of the timeline, Recoome killed Gohan and that Gohan was SSJ2 only once in Buu arc only to retcon themselves and say he was SSJ2 vs Dabura?

[Fox666]

For example the Gohan supposedly weakened in Buu's saga... Daizenshuu gives the right interpretation, simply... And reading the manga with that interpretation, everything works fine... Of course without Guidebooks correct line, many things are opened to various views and often more than one can't be either proven or disproven...
Guidebooks are there to clean the debates of many possible but wrong interpretations... Although many debates remain open and it happens that a Guidebook may open up new debates on things that have been appearently clear in the manga but they weren't instead...

When it comes to Gohan power before and during the Majin Boo saga, for or me the Daizenshuu simply seems to ignore the difference in power whenever he is not transformed in Super Saiyan.

And again, this would only be a problem if you are too focused with battle power related information.

[Herms]

I haven't actually read the Daiz but does it state the errors I thought it made, like Tenshinhan having Kaioken,

Nope, not in there. This might have been one of the problems with the French Daizenshuu 7 translation, unless I'm thinking of something else.

Bojack being part of the timeline

Not in there. DBZ movies 1 and 5 are included in the Daizenshuu 7 timeline though. However, that's not the same thing as saying those movies are "canon", just that their events are tied to a specific time period.

Recoome killed Gohan

Note in there. Apparently this is based on Daizenshuu 2's description of one of Recoom's attacks being meant to finish off Vegeta, Kuririn, and Gohan. That description of "meant to finish off" is taken right from the series, where Recoom says "now to finish you off" before firing it. However, its only intended target was Vegeta, and Gohan and Kuririn only got near it because they butted in to save him, so describing it as meant to finish off all three is a little inaccurate. But no, it never says Recoom killed Gohan.

and that Gohan was SSJ2 only once in Buu arc only to retcon themselves and say he was SSJ2 vs Dabura?

Yeah, but it's less a retcon and more an example of disagreement between volumes. Daizenshuu 2 only lists high school era SSj2 Gohan as appearing in volume 37, though it doesn't flat-out say that he never uses that form again. Then Daizenshuu 7's bio for Dabra says he fought SSj2 Gohan.

There are various mistakes in the daizenshuu, but when you do the math the daizenshuu are a total of over 1,600 pages, while their mistakes number...I'll be generous to the nay-sayers and go with 32, though I doubt anyone could scrap together that many. Even so, that still gives you 1 mistake for every 50 pages, which is probably a better track record than Kanzentai, God knows.

[Nazi Cola]

Yeah, but it's less a retcon and more an example of disagreement between volumes. Daizenshuu 2 only lists high school era SSj2 Gohan as appearing in volume 37, though it doesn't flat-out say that he never uses that form again. Then Daizenshuu 7's bio for Dabra says he fought SSj2 Gohan.

I always interpreted the little "+" sign to mean the form had been used after that specific volume(s), and that no "+" meant the opposite. It seems to be the case for every other character and their forms listed in that section, although I suppose that's just my interpretation, and I could be wrong.

There are various mistakes in the daizenshuu, but when you do the math the daizenshuu are a total of over 1,600 pages, while their mistakes number...I'll be generous to the nay-sayers and go with 32, though I doubt anyone could scrap together that many. Even so, that still gives you 1 mistake for every 50 pages, which is probably a better track record than Kanzentai, God knows.

One mistake in the entire book makes it completely worthless, even though plenty of best-sellers, scholarly books, etc. have mistakes, yet people don't throw those out just because.

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, but it's less a retcon and more an example of disagreement between volumes. Daizenshuu 2 only lists high school era SSj2 Gohan as appearing in volume 37, though it doesn't flat-out say that he never uses that form again. Then Daizenshuu 7's bio for Dabra says he fought SSj2 Gohan.

I always interpreted the little "+" sign to mean the form had been used after that specific volume(s), and that no "+" meant the opposite. It seems to be the case for every other character and their forms listed in that section, although I suppose that's just my interpretation, and I could be wrong.

That section in itself has a few amusing mistakes/errors.

• Goku being an adult from volume 14-22, which implies he wasn't one after that.
• Vegetto having the "+" even though he first appears in the last volume, which implies he can be found in volumes that don't exist. Typical counter would be that this is Vegetto we are talking about.
• Strongest Warrior Gohan not having the "+" after the volume he appears in, even though his eyes remain the same until the end of the series, implying he's still "Ultimate."

So as we can see, this section does have mistakes, meaning other profiles could have as well.

Oh and Daizenshuu 7's timeline and human dictionary have differing views on when Bra is born.

[Kaboom]

For Goku at least, volume 22 is when he first had the "Super Saiyan" label attached to him (Vegeta ponders about it after Goku beats Recoome). So maybe that "new identity" is the reason why his regular "adult" phase ends there in the book.

Vegetto, of course, is just so awesome that he continues to exist even after he stops existing. Which leads us to Gohan, who would of course no longer be the "mightiest warrior" once Vegetto enters the story in Volume 42.

...Okay, so I'm only completely serious with the first one about Goku.

But all in all, given the artwork accompanying the picture of SSj2 Gohan, and how it only mentions him using the form at the tournament in front of Kibito, there is no reason for us to assume that one was a mistake. Other than volume 7 implying something different within Dabra's bio, but of course that is the whole crux of the conflict here.

[Nazi Cola]

That section in itself has a few amusing mistakes/errors.

• Goku being an adult from volume 14-22, which implies he wasn't one after that.

Huh, never noticed that.

[*]Vegetto having the "+" even though he first appears in the last volume, which implies he can be found in volumes that don't exist. Typical counter would be that this is Vegetto we are talking about.

...Never noticed that either...

[*]Strongest Warrior Gohan not having the "+" after the volume he appears in, even though his eyes remain the same until the end of the series, implying he's still "Ultimate."[/list]

I thought his eyes did change. He had connected eyelines up until he was revived during the Kid Boo battle if I remember correctly, and then after that they were disconnected.

So as we can see, this section does have mistakes, meaning other profiles could have as well.

Oh and Daizenshuu 7's timeline and human dictionary have differing views on when Bra is born.

Yeah, no doubt, but I don't think it's right for people to go "Well, this completely unrelated section has a few errors, so because I don't agree with this particular character entry, I'm going to say it's an error, too, with no real evidence to back up my objection." That's just my opinion, though.

[dbgtFO]

I thought his eyes did change. He had connected eyelines up until he was revived during the Kid Boo battle if I remember correctly, and then after that they were disconnected.

Actually they are connected at the end of the series. I guess it's the glasses, that make it hard to see, but on the final page his eyes are connected.

Yeah, no doubt, but I don't think it's right for people to go "Well, this completely unrelated section has a few errors, so because I don't agree with this particular character entry, I'm going to say it's an error, too, with no real evidence to back up my objection." That's just my opinion, though.

I feel the same way.

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah, no doubt, but I don't think it's right for people to go "Well, this completely unrelated section has a few errors, so because I don't agree with this particular character entry, I'm going to say it's an error, too, with no real evidence to back up my objection." That's just my opinion, though.

I couldn't have said it better. A lot of people just disregard things in the Daizenshuu simply because of bias (not wanting Dabura into SSjin 2 Gohan/SPC's tier, etc.) I used to be a huge Daizenshuu hater myself and would just ignore anything out of it out of principle, but after reading the manga from the perspective of the Daizenshuu statements I really feel all of the big things that most people disagree on (Gohan being SSjin 2, Teen Gohan = Kid Gohan, Kaio-ken x2 and Kaio-ken being different things, Nappa being at 4,000, etc) are completely factual. Just my opinion though.

[Ussj Future Trunks]

About Nappa, didn't Goku ponder if he would require Kaioken just to get past Nappa? I mean with him being twice as strong as Nappa, it should have been an easy task to oneshot him.
Interestingly, the Daiz also said Goku gave power to Gohan in the final kamehameha on Cell. Gohan says he felt his father's ki in the Dragonball Kai subs.

[CatouttaHell]

I don't think he said anything about the Kaio-ken. He simply said it would take forever to take down Nappa because of how ridiculously durable he is. I mean even when he was suppressed to a level where a 2,800 Masenko made his arm numb he was still bouncing back from 8,000 Goku's attack.

And Goku giving Gohan power can be interpreted as him upping Gohan's Ki with his words/encouragement. After Cell powered up and damaged Gohan his full power fell below that of Cell's due to his hopelessness and fear, which constitutes as a drop in Yuuki. Goku encouraged Gohan and gave him back his Yuuki which ended up rising his power, even though he was injured, back to a level above Super Perfect Cell's.

[Son_Gohan]

I noticed on Kanzentai that along with Daizenshuu Two's initial release date, there was a "revised" one. Did the other books receive the same treatment and if so, how many editions of the Daizenshuus have been released? And would anyone know of any changes that were made?

[Herms]

That section in itself has a few amusing mistakes/errors.
[*]Goku being an adult from volume 14-22, which implies he wasn't one after that.

Hahahah...that should say "14-42". I just made a typo.

[*]Vegetto having the "+" even though he first appears in the last volume, which implies he can be found in volumes that don't exist. Typical counter would be that this is Vegetto we are talking about.

Ugh...also a typo of mine. Sorry...

[*]Strongest Warrior Gohan not having the "+" after the volume he appears in, even though his eyes remain the same until the end of the series, implying he's still "Ultimate."

Ah, that one's like that in the actual book. Good (for me). And yeah, those "+" in the Kanzentai page are translations of ikou/"and afterward" in Japanese, so the fact that it's not there for the "Strongest Warrior" section implies that that form only appears in just that one volume.

Now that I think of it, that "the daizenshuu say Recoom killed Gohan" thing comes mostly from how I mistranslated the Daizenshuu 2 attack section to say that Recoom's Eraser Gun "finishes off" Vegeta and co. rather than simply being intended to finish them off. At the time I was translating, I didn't have any manga for reference and misremembered the attack as actually taking the gang out, which affected my translation.

Man, I should just quit.

[VegettoEX]

Man, I should just quit.

Just think, though! Another ten years from now, and Julian #3 will be talking about your early mistranslations and how they permeated throughout the community, building off of Greg's earlier stuff, and there will be an entire section of a website dedicated to it!

Gold, Jerry! GOLD!