Kaioshin/South Kaioshin/Dai Kaioshin/Kibitoshin REVALUATION

[goldsaint13]

Lost post.

[goldsaint13]

I don't know what are you talking about. Is that in the anime?

I doubt it...

It's an idea Chou Gohan had based on some facts... He said that in Buu's saga base Goku is 1/5 than his SSJ1... Well, I think 1/4 is better... But it's based on him that as normal barely held his own against Yakon that is 800... So he could be assumed to be 750 (x4 = 3000)...

Also, he based his idea on the fact that Vegeta states that at the Tenkaichi he could beat both Android 18 and Piccolo without turning SSJ (he didn't knew about Kaioshin)...

Also, he may take into account that base Trunks is stated to be equal to Android 18...

As far I can tell, Gotenks attacked Evil Boo many times, and he was unscattered. And Evil Boo only gave him a slap making Gotenks' eyes popping. This really don't give any limit for Evil Boo strength compared to Gotenks.

I don't mean Evil Buu but Fat Buu... Before the RoSaT he barely survived to Fat Buu as base form but is something like as strong as him as SSJ1...

With Chou Gohan's example, we could assume that base Gotenks is SSJ2-tier but that his SSJ1 is the base x4...

Like Fat Buu could be 18.000 Kili for example and base Gotenks 4600 Kili, so that as SSJ1 he would be 18400 Kili... Barely able to get the upper hand against Buu, in case...
SSJ3 Goku could have used 1/3 of his power at 18.000 and stated SSJ1 Gotenks to be stronger than the power he shown in that battle...

Looking to things this way, they could work... But we would need a guide to confirm something in those lines...

The reason why the base form could have gotten so powerful may even be related to the Full Power state that somehow merges the base and the calm SSJ as they would be the same...

[Fox666]

Well, again, there is no precedent for the Super Saiyan multiplier changing. If the guides thinks it's worth to note the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2 and 3, don't you think they would inform such a think?

Also, he based his idea on the fact that Vegeta states that at the Tenkaichi he could beat both Android 18 and Piccolo without turning SSJ (he didn't knew about Kaioshin)...

I don't think he does. Here is the line:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Trunks (with Goten): “We’re fine too!”

For me this applies only to the other saiyans. Besides I don't think Vegeta would care about such a condition if he was fighting no.18 or Piccolo.

And the series actually provided us reference of how the saiyans deal with no.18 and Piccolo without transforming in Super Saiyans: Trunks and Goten (who are strong enough to spare with Vegeta and Gohan) couldn't handle no.18, and Goku clearly stated that "Piccolo’s coming out strong now" after Gotenks fusion timed out inside Evil Boo.

[dbgtFO]

And the series actually provided us reference of how the saiyans deal with no.18 and Piccolo without transforming in Super Saiyans: Trunks and Goten (who are strong enough to spare with Vegeta and Gohan) couldn't handle no.18, and Goku clearly stated that "Piccolo’s coming out strong now" after Gotenks fusion timed out inside Evil Boo.

They couldn't handle #18 due to the suit limiting their movement.
And the Goku quote just means Piccolo is the dominant one now. The wording doesn't seem right, if Goku is trying to say 'Piccolo is currently the strongest guy inside Buu.'

[Fox666]

Well, for me it seems that Piccolo is supposed to be the strongest inside Boo.

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”

Besides Goku automatically assumes that it is because Gotenks' fusion timed out.

They couldn't handle #18 due to the suit limiting their movement.

Here is the whole battle:



Based on Trunks facial expression, he was under pressure all time. Besides was scared of a her energy ball, seemed to have problem in catching with no.18 Bukunjutsu speed, etc.

[goldsaint13]

Lost post.

[goldsaint13]

Well, again, there is no precedent for the Super Saiyan multiplier changing. If the guides thinks it's worth to note the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2 and 3, don't you think they would inform such a think?

Of course... That's why I said that I would expect a guide to explain such an important thing...

For me this applies only to the other saiyans. Besides I don't think Vegeta would care about such a condition if he was fighting no.18 or Piccolo.

That's what I'm brought to believe too... But Chou Gohan's idea is suggestive...

And the series actually provided us reference of how the saiyans deal with no.18 and Piccolo without transforming in Super Saiyans: Trunks and Goten (who are strong enough to spare with Vegeta and Gohan) couldn't handle no.18

Isn't it because they were clumsy because they were using the same costume?
Although Android 18 hardly fought seriously...

and Goku clearly stated that "Piccolo’s coming out strong now" after Gotenks fusion timed out inside Evil Boo.

I don't remember that... I remember Goku saying: "He looks like Piccolo now, it's clear that the kids defused... Now Gohan can handle him on his own..."

Well, for me it seems that Piccolo is supposed to be the strongest inside Boo.

Actually, while Trunks and Goten are stronger than Piccolo when SSJ charget at max, I hardly believe they could be even close to him as base form...

Based on Trunks facial expression, he was under pressure all time. Besides was scared of a her energy ball, seemed to have problem in catching with no.18 Bukunjutsu speed, etc.

It can be because of their condition more than their power level... Well, but No.18 is a matter, Piccolo is another... Piccolo was stronger than No.18 by a small amout even after he just fused with Kami because he equals No.17 that is a bit stronger than No.18... In Buu's saga, with three more trainings including one in the RoSaT he is far stronger than No.18...

And while the fact that Trunks and Goten may equal No.18 in base could be barely supposed, it's not possible to suppose the same for Piccolo...

[CatouttaHell]

Is it possible Kaioshin feared Dabura out of reputation just like he feared Yakon and Pui-Pui? I mean it'd make a lot more sense for him to know how powerful Dabura was than some random no-name guy like Pui-Pui but other evidence suggests otherwise. For one Kaioshin didn't think he was surpassed until he felt SSjin 2 Goku's burst against Yakon. And he did better against Dai Kaioshin Boo than SSjin 2 Gohan and Dabura did. If you just assume Kaioshin feared Dabura because of his reputation as the strongest guy in the Demon Realm, and that he and South Kaioshin never actually bothered to pull out the Z Sword, which are both very probable, it's very likely for East Kaioshin to be above Super Perfect Cell and for South Kaioshin to be SSjin 3 tier IMO.

[p123]

I have all Kaioshins residing in the 250-500 million range.

I even have Cyborg 18 above South Kaioshin by a little bit... Kaioshins are nothing special to the Cell Saga IMO...

[CatouttaHell]

I have all Kaioshins residing in the 250-500 million range.

I even have Cyborg 18 above South Kaioshin by a little bit... Kaioshins are nothing special to the Cell Saga IMO...

Damn, below Cyborg #18?! No offence, but how did you come to that conclusion? Kaioshins should be monsters. East Kaioshin was just a coward. It's likely that all of Babidi's goons are also hard to probably sense, kind of like Majin Boo himself. Goku said at some point that Spopovich had no life Ki too IIRC. South Kaioshin has to be on par with SSjin 3 Goku considering all of the implications IMO. East Kaioshin is >>> Piccolo, but he's pretty much a garbage bug by the Boo Arc so that doesn't mean much.

East Kaioshin did amazingly well against Majin Boo too. Feats > statements IMO. If East Kaioshin is terrified of a guy like Pui-Pui, and yet does much better than Gohan and Dabura against the exact same opponent then the second holds far more weight IMO.

[p123]

I just don't see Pocus being all that strong. I think the Cyborgs and Cell have unnatural powers.


I have Pocus at like 350 m, Suggested Base Saiyans Strength by Badibi/Dabura around 300 million and Kaioshin about 250 million.


I think Kaioshin only has to be strong enough to be able to take out Freeza in one blast, and that's it really..


Regarding the Fat Buu stuff your right, it's awkward. But things like that happen in the Buu Saga. Various level of toying around etc etc.


Kaioshin IMO is def weaker than Pocus, and way way weaker than Yakkon and Base Saiyans...

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah I agree about Cyborgs and Cell having unnatural powers. I think Initial Second Form Cell and #16 have powers that 99.9% of beings simply cannot reach. Piccolo flat-out stated nobody can defeat Initial Cell and pretty much just seemed to throw in the towel after that. And he was a legendary Namekseijin warrior who had fused twice!

I just can't see Pui-Pui and Yakon being able to survive even a light poke from Dai Kaioshin Boo. I think Kaioshin just feared all of Babidi's warriors because of their reputation. Everybody Babidi-related seems to be implied to be very hard to sense IMO. Also, imagine if all of your fellow brethren were slaughtered by some impossibly strong guy. And then you went to fight the son of the guy who had unleashed him, and as soon as you find him you see he has a guy who has the reputation of being by far the strongest guy in the entire Demon Realm with him.

A guy who, depending on whether you believe he's a Makaioshin or not, could be far above even your equivalents in his world. He can't be blamed for being scared of anybody Babidi brings out after all that IMO. For all he knew, Pui-Pui was worlds above all of them. He had already seen a guy who is supposed to just be a weak Earthling go SSjin 2 earlier. Everybody in Babidi's ship seemed to be completely off regarding their expectations of everyone's power. I mean Dabura thought the combined power of the three Base Saiya-jins was > SSjin 2 Gohan's power. That's hilarious.

[Fox666]

It can be because of their condition more than their power level... Well, but No.18 is a matter, Piccolo is another... Piccolo was stronger than No.18 by a small amout even after he just fused with Kami because he equals No.17 that is a bit stronger than No.18... In Buu's saga, with three more trainings including one in the RoSaT he is far stronger than No.18...

And while the fact that Trunks and Goten may equal No.18 in base could be barely supposed, it's not possible to suppose the same for Piccolo...

I think that most people forget that the Cell saga actually provides a numerical comparison of Goku power as a Full-power Super Saiyan with the rest of the characters. This is, when Goku uses 50% of his Ki.


I remember when this line was discussed back them. Trunks was surprised when Goku said Piccolo couldn't defeat Cell:

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go in the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”
Piccolo: “Hmph…You really were frank…”

Besides, there is not just Piccolo, but also Vegeta:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first
Vegeta: “Do want you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

Vegeta clearly surpassed by much the 50% of Goku. And if you are gona believe that Piccolo in the Cell Games is by any form close to Vegeta in power, added to Trunks' reaction above, it should be clear that Piccolo should also have surpassed these 50%.

[p123]

Piccolo never surpassed 50%. Not even close.

Everyone up till this point feels that Goku's 100% power is his 50% power... That's why Vegeta thinks he will win.

Initial Semi Cell >= Piccolo Buu > Piccolo Cell > 16

IMO...

[CatouttaHell]

Piccolo never surpassed 50%. Not even close.

Everyone up till this point feels that Goku's 100% power is his 50% power... That's why Vegeta thinks he will win.

Initial Semi Cell >= Piccolo Buu > Piccolo Cell > 16

IMO...

I agree with that. I think #16 and Initial Second Form Cell are unnatural powers that 99.9% of beings will max out before ever reaching. I personally have:

Intial Second Form Cell >>> Piccolo Boo = Piccolo Cell > #16

[p123]

Cmon man, Piccolo Buu > Piccolo Cell.


Piccolo End of Z 2,000
Semi Cell FP 2,000
Initial Semi Cell 1,600
Piccolo Buu 1,500
Piccolo Cell 1,200
16/Imperfect Cell 1,000
Kamiccolo/17 600
18 550
Kamiccolo Weights 540



Marvel at perfection COH! Cmon man you know that ish it tight!

[CatouttaHell]

There's really nothing flat-out saying Piccolo increased from the Cell Games, just assumptions. Honestly I'd like to give Piccolo an increase but it just doesn't work. Base Goten and Trunks should be on par with or higher than #18 and Goten is never implied to be horribly far from Gohan. Base Gohan >>> Piccolo, so it makes it really hard for Piccolo to get big increases, especially if you use a 50x boost. I do agree that he got a hefty boost by the End of DBZ though. IMO he started training again because his old rival Goku came back to life. I personally have:

FP Second Form - 3,600
Initial Second Form - 1,500
Base Goku - 1,300
End of Z Piccolo - 1,200
Base Vegeta - 1,000
Base Goten (Post) - 750
Base Gohan Boo - 750
Base Gohan Cell - 650
Piccolo Cell/Boo - 600
Imperfect Cell - 570
#16 - 530
Base Goten (Pre) - 450
Kamiccolo - 380

[p123]

Just regular logic.

Piccolo is not stated to have stopped training, so logically he trained, and if he trained, logically he got stronger. Think of Piccolo as hitting MSSJ like Goku. He can get stronger, but at a snail's pace. Not to mention that Goku has SSJ2/SSJ3 to help him train and grow, and Piccolo doesn't have transformations. So Goku's minimal increases are even more than Piccolo's minimal training...


Base/SSJ Goku Cell 66% of Base/SSJ Goku Buu with OtherWorld Training + SSJ2/ SSJ3 Training...

Piccolo Cell is 80% of Piccolo Buu just with regular earth training over 7 years...



And then I have....


Goku Buu at 80% of Goku End of Z


And Piccolo Buu at 75% of Piccolo End of Z...





You have Piccolo end of Z doubling his power in 10 years, yet in 7 years no increase. No bueno...

[dbgtFO]

Maybe Piccolo trained, maybe he didn't. Perhaps even if he did train it'd probably just be maintenance, which wouldn't give huge gains.
In the long run it doesn't really matter, since Piccolo's power is not relevant at all in the Buu Arc, so I'm fine with him not gaining any significant power. If it was in battle power he could gain like one point every year, it doesn't really matter. Nobody states anything about him growing significantly stronger, the plot doesn't require him too and I don't feel it's necessary either.
Piccolo(Cell) more or less equals Piccolo(Buu) IMO.

[p123]

Piccolo trained. Why? Because he was never suggested not to. Only Kuririn/Yamcha/Gohan were suggested to have stopped training. No reason to throw Piccolo in there.

Piccolo should received minimal / moderate gains. Just because it makes your other power levels iffy, doesn't mean you should hold onto a twisted POV...


It shouldn't be much, but it should be something... 80% gap or something you know? It is 7 years...