Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

[Eire]

Film linked above makes some interesting points, but the overall tone of the doom and fall makes it hardly to watch. The guy could tell it without saying that in his times the grass was greener.

[SHINOBI-03]

THE RISE AND FALL OF ANIME FANSUBS (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0

Dude... that's the video that changed my view of fansubs ages ago.

[.:PoetikaL:.]

Same here. The point being is that I agree that anything translated from another country should be translated as smoothly as possible. Some will agree, some won't, and that's okay because everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But like you, this documentary really changed my outlook with fansubs and even professional translations.

[obiwan23s]

It depends on the setting of the story for me. Dragon Ball makes sense to keep the titles within the script because it starts out with many Eastern influences, different dialects and what not. But I translated Mobile Suit Gundam TV for a little-known group mostly associated with doing scanlations and I completely scrapped honorifics across the board, save for maybe translating -sama once or twice to fit the situation. And of course the military titles were kept but those are quite different from the general use and respectful titles.

My biggest beef with them is not the fact that they get left in scripts but rather this general attitude that we must always translate them the same way. I think this limits their use substantially. Like, -san doesn't always need to come out as Mister or Miss. In all of my Japanese classes, we had to refer to classmates with -san after their names just to show an equal level of respect to everyone in there. We obviously had to call the teacher with -sensei after his name, but that's about as far as it went. I didn't have to speak to female classmates with -chan after their names (this was actually greatly discouraged as apparently it's more popular among children and teenagers and not nearly as common with adults). So in essence, simply removing -san from a line of translation could theoretically be a proper translation as long as that character's tone is kept respectful enough. At least in my opinion it would be.

As you move up the chain it gets a little more tricky, but I think you get the idea. I recall a pretty awesome situation in which I was able to use "Mister" as a translation for -sama and it was a slam dunk, but I won't bore you guys with more tales from the fansubbing crypt unless you really want to hear them.

[Herms]

Kaio-sama > Lord Kaio

Don't you mean "Lord World-King"?

[.:PoetikaL:.]

Kaio-sama > Lord Kaio

Don't you mean "Lord World-King"?

Close enough!

[TonyTheTiger]

I tend to have different standards for subs and dubs, being far more lenient regarding how many "Japan-isms" I'm willing to put up with in subs. Mostly because there's an active listening factor and I think if what you're hearing heavily clashes with what you're reading it can cause some problems here and there. The subtitles in the Street Fighter Alpha anime kept translating "Gouki" as "Akuma." Yeah, ok...I get why they did it, but it was actually kind of annoying. While if I watch the dub I fully expect the characters to say "Akuma."

So I don't think Steve Simmons did anything wrong in this case. A stylistic choice.

[Gaffer Tape]

Oh, geez, I couldn't begin to tell you how much that would piss me off if I was watching that movie. When I put on foreign language subtitles, I sort of expect them, you know, actually translate what's on the screen. If they were to just up and dubtitle a character's name, I'd completely lose faith in it and assume that everything else it was saying was just something some random script writer made up... which completely goes against my entire purpose of watching things subbed. I've used this example before, but, when I was new to this whole game, I'd watch Tenchi Muyo! subbed, and they'd bypass "big brother" for just "Yosho." At the time, I had no idea what was going on, but they obviously weren't saying "Yosho." So I would spend the whole time paranoid, wondering if I could trust the words on the screen.

[JulieYBM]

I've used this example before, but, when I was new to this whole game, I'd watch Tenchi Muyo! subbed, and they'd bypass "big brother" for just "Yosho." At the time, I had no idea what was going on, but they obviously weren't saying "Yosho." So I would spend the whole time paranoid, wondering if I could trust the words on the screen.

I'm watching Zeta Gundam right now and Shinta and Qum call Fa Yuiri 'onee-chan'...which one would assume would be written as 'big sis'...but instead the subtitles just say 'Fa'.

It's the most annoying thing ever. >_<

[Gaffer Tape]

Yep. Even now that I understand what it was and why they did it, it annoys me. Because if they're going to fudge one thing for the sake of "Americanizing," how do I know what else they're taking big liberties with?

[JulieYBM]

Yep. Even now that I understand what it was and why they did it, it annoys me. Because if they're going to fudge one thing for the sake of "Americanizing," how do I know what else they're taking big liberties with?

Yeah, not to mention you have to wonder what is going through the minds of these people where they think people aren't paying attention to the audio while reading the subtitles and thinking. Really, how does this escape someone, let alone professionals?

[VegettoEX]

It was a long while back (November 2006) so I can't guarantee sound quality or anything, but we did interview Steve back on Episode #0052 of our podcast. One of the answers that left a lasting impression on me was how he described getting everything the characters would say in SOME WAY in the translation on-screen, whether that was through an honorific, slang-spelling, etc.

Something I always point to in this type of discussion is the Viz DVD release of Honey & Clover, since it's a prime example of how to do EVERYTHING WRONG. Sure, you can probably point to a lot of those examples as just plain ol' piss-poor quality control, but by "translating" honorifics and pet-names into different things, when later characters are introduced with the same name as someone else, or one character changes the way they address someone else... well, if you haven't adapted the way they speak any other way, you're left with a translation that completely misses major points of character development. WHOOPS.

[TonyTheTiger]

I've used this example before, but, when I was new to this whole game, I'd watch Tenchi Muyo! subbed, and they'd bypass "big brother" for just "Yosho." At the time, I had no idea what was going on, but they obviously weren't saying "Yosho." So I would spend the whole time paranoid, wondering if I could trust the words on the screen.

Yeah, exactly. That happens a lot, actually. In Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans Bulma's "Son-kun" was subbed as "Goku" if I remember correctly.

This precisely characterizes my distinction between sub and dub. With a dub you can (and I think you often should) take advantage of the actors' ability to "translate" things through means other than sheer words. Some things just don't have dictionary analogues but concepts (which I think are more important to get across) can be communicated to the audience through the voice talent and the linguistic attributes they bring to the table, which go far beyond the mere words themselves.

So I'm faaaar more open to "translations" in dubs that forgo mere words for more accurate communication of concepts. Since, ya know, that's what language is for in the first place and what the original Japanese audience "understood" while they watched in Japanese. They may have listened to words but what they actually interpreted was concepts. All language is like that.

But with subtitles, because you're literally hearing what is being said in Japanese, whether you understand it or not, the words written on screen have a different function. They aren't the sole form of communication like an actor's voice is. Instead they work hand in hand with the Japanese actor's performance. You're still hearing those extra linguistic flairs but you're not getting them from the subtitles. There's no English speaking actor to deliver them. You're getting them in Japanese.

The end result is me usually being very annoyed when I hear girls use the phrase "big brother" in dubs (because it often misses the concept entirely for the sake of literal translation) but being perfectly fine reading "big brother" in subtitles because the Japanese actor is giving all that extra information that provides all requisite meaning to the phrase even when there's a language barrier. That kind of communication outside of words is incredibly powerful. Try to watch something subbed while on mute. It's almost impossible to tolerate.

Since subs and dubs operate under different conditions, I think it's only right they have different "rules" or guidelines. The universal truism is to make sure the audience simply understands what the hell is going on in the same organic way a native speaker of the original language would. The means by which to accomplish that varies depending on the situation.

[Bussani]

Well, for one, it's a Japanese dub, and second the Japanese listeners sees it normal the same way we take Mr. and Mrs. normal.

I wasn't talking about a Japanese listener watching the Japanese version--I was talking about an English listener watching it with subtitles and then complaining that Japanese doesn't fit the setting. I can understand the argument that some people want a completely translated script, but to me, if you don't want any Japanese messing with the feel of a British setting, why would you watch it in Japanese?

Honestly, I'd still say I don't care about honorifics either way when it comes to subs, but Gaffer, YBM and Mike have all shown examples of how translating them or just leaving them out doesn't always go well. Like I said to begin with, it takes a subtle and flexible touch to do well.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I can in my language use honorific kun, which will look like this: Gohan-kun: Gohánek, Videl-kun: Videlka.....

Isn't it rather an equivalent of -chan?

That's more a diminutive (upon which I probably should've expanded in my previous post) than an honorific. A diminutive is used to express affection, but it also can be used mockingly. An honorific is used to show respect to someone of superior status. Chan is undoubtedly the former. What pisses me off is that they occur in a myriad of languages and they're relatively easy to translate, but I mostly see them untranslated in Anime and Manga. Ah well, I'm not going to flog a dead horse here.

[obiwan23s]

I think a decent amount of colloquialism is definitely necessary when adapting a Japanese work for English. Yes, you can get away with more in a dub but I think that documentary was spot on earlier when he said that the Japanese language isn't this holy and sacrosanct idea that we spill any blood on lest we be beheaded and what not. I had people approach me all the time asking me if I was a hack translator because I'd insert a character name in place of "onee-chan" when it's just a simple respect of my target audience. My goal was always to make my translate reach as many people as possible without costing the script any integrity. The simple replacement of "sister" with the character's name was a no-brainer because in western culture we don't address our siblings like that, we would use their name.

Another thing is that the Japanese language allows for terms like "onee-chan" to be substituted for pronouns. That's the Zeta Gundam thing mentioned earlier. I'm sure it's also contextually translated as "her/she/you" in other contexts but the most obvious reason they deviated from a proper translation of "onee-chan" with respect to Fa is that she's not actually the kids' sister. This also shows up in First Gundam with Fraw Bow and the three kids on the White Base. I did the same thing in that case and just inserted "Fraw" into the subtitles. Most of these things are still technically correct.

Also the -chan vs -kun thing is very easy. -chan is for females, -kun is for males.

[Eire]

I can in my language use honorific kun, which will look like this: Gohan-kun: Gohánek, Videl-kun: Videlka.....

Isn't it rather an equivalent of -chan?

That's more a diminutive (upon which I probably should've expanded in my previous post) than an honorific. A diminutive is used to express affection, but it also can be used mockingly. An honorific is used to show respect to someone of superior status.

Diminutives are also used to shown devotion towards superiors in comical way(eg. Toadie to Igtorn in Gummi Berars)
That's not strange they they are rarely translated- all other details in the manner of speaking usually share the same fate, not only in M&A.

I had people approach me all the time asking me if I was a hack translator because I'd (...)

Maybe you should publish FAQ about that as did the Polish translator of Fullmetal Alchemist. Guy made a wonderful translation preserving amount of humor and made an effort to give the proper equivalents of character's manner of speaking (eg. some archaisms in Armstrong), translate military terms and in reward he had a lots of usually annoying questions why he dared to not translate it as scanlators did.
I do appreciate fansubbers, scanlators and all translators who doesn't translate automatically, but actually think while translate. Luckily recently more groups tend to learn and not just translate words but think about people who will watch and read that.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

That's not strange they they are rarely translated- all other details in the manner of speaking usually share the same fate, not only in M&A.

I don't feel that way about diminutives. Certainly, honorifics like senpai and kōhai are vexing, but diminutives like chan are simple. The usage of little, tiny or even -ie/-y conveys the same message rather nicely: the speaker is being affectionate or playful.

The simple replacement of "sister" with the character's name was a no-brainer because in western culture we don't address our siblings like that, we would use their name.

I sometimes see sister and brother being used like that in dubs, which is the last place you'd expect.

-chan is for females, -kun is for males.

Not necessarily, but in most cases.

[coola]

Thank you for answers,and sorry,if it sounded like I'm picky,i was just curious why Mr. Simmons decide to left honorifics

[TripleRach]

I've been meaning to write a blog post about this subject, because I see a lot of extremism on both sides of the argument lately. Basically, I think there's a middle ground between leaving everything-chan untranslated desu, and hardcore "whitewashing" localization.

I don't speak a word of French, but if I saw "monsieur" left in subtitles of French material, I don't think it would bother me or make me go "what a bunch of Francophile assholes." I've heard plenty of professional translations do exactly that, so it's not just a Japanese thing.

The point of translating is to make things understandable in another language. So you have to consider "Will leaving in 'Son-kun' be confusing?" versus "Will the audience lose something if I completely ignore it?" In the case of Dragon Ball, honorifics are pretty rare overall, so it's fairly significant when they do pop up. I think it would be a mistake to omit them entirely. (If you wanted to localize "Son-kun" instead of leaving it as is, I guess something like "Sonny" would be an, uh, interesting alternative.)

I think a better question might be "Why aren't things like 'Kaiou' and 'Kami' and 'Kienzan' translated?" But that's opening up a whole new can of worms.