Vegeta: Neglectful Father?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Point is Vegeta is always there for the most part since Trunks was born.

My father is a lot like Vegeta, pretty much an emotionless asshole all the time. Despite the fact that he was around around, and I admired him for a lot of his artistic talent, that still doesn't mean I considered him a "dad". He was much more akin to a sperm donator who happened to stick around afterward. On the other hand, my grandfather was kind of like Goku. Even though he obviously cared for the entire family, he would put his needs before everyone elses on occasion. but he taught me a lot of things, and did quite of bit of raising me, and even though I saw him much less frequent that my real father, I'll always consider him the dominant father figure in my life.

So, speaking from experience, Goku's a better father than Vegeta. Just because Vegeta never left, doesn't really mean anything.

[vegetaslegacy15]

Point is Vegeta is always there for the most part since Trunks was born.

My father is a lot like Vegeta, pretty much an emotionless asshole all the time. Despite the fact that he was around around, and I admired him for a lot of his artistic talent, that still doesn't mean I considered him a "dad". He was much more akin to a sperm donator who happened to stick around afterward. On the other hand, my grandfather was kind of like Goku. Even though he obviously cared for the entire family, he would put his needs before everyone elses on occasion. but he taught me a lot of things, and did quite of bit of raising me, and even though I saw him much less frequent that my real father, I'll always consider him the dominant father figure in my life.

So, speaking from experience, Goku's a better father than Vegeta. Just because Vegeta never left, doesn't really mean anything.

Well I guess from that point of view that is true. But a lot of the times Goku was also doing it because he loved fighting so much. Like how he got hard-ons from fighting Cell, Boo, Vegeta, and Freeza. So the reasons he fought were partially selfish in my opinion.

[Michsi]

Mishi, moment where Gohan says that he wants to participate in tournament, and when his mother says that she thought about mortgage, because the money were gone.

I don't say that Goku was bad parent after all, but just point one thing that he lacked and I think wasn't developed right. Maybe I wouldn't even notice that if it wasn't Toriyama who made Chi-Chi's effort to have money and proper education for children just nothing more than mockery. That is the same level as making Freeza's army just decoration. Wasting the things that would keep reader's eye between fights and adventures and make the world more reliable.

I remember her saying that they will finally have money again ,yes (I seriously don't remember anything about mortage)

It's just that I'm tired of people trying to pin Goku as the worst husband/father ever or saying that Vegeta was better simply because he was around. Yes, he is not the best dad , but for every fault Goku has, the author gave a few matching ones to Chichi, so neither of them are the perfect parents.

Did Goku ever hug Gohan?

Yes. When he was first introduced, Gohan was being held by Goku and considering how clingy Gohan was being, it's safe to say that this kid got a lot of attention and affection
And in the Buu Saga, when Gohan is about to leave to fight Buu , they give each other a nice big hug (and no , I'm not talking about the anime where Goku seems to push Gohan off in a "that's enough of this girly stuff, now go be a man" manner)
Keep in mind that I think that physical affection doesn't come naturally to Goku either.

[Eire]

Well Chichi could've also had some sort of job.

Japanese married woman in manga written in 80s? That would be a shame for Goku.

But yeah Goku deffinitely is not a jerk he provides food and for awhile I guess he provided financially with the money from the Budokais. Besides who knows maybe he got money for saving the world from King Piccolo.

Who knows, maybe Vegeta had savings or his father left him money in bank of Space Switzerland? Besides, who knows how Vegeta and Trunks were off screen, since author thought it was unimportant comparing to everything else?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Again, this:

Anyway, I don't know why people are making cases for either Goku or Vegeta being better fathers than each other and trying to soften certain aspects of their fatherhood when, let's face it, they're both pure-blooded Saiyans who, while possibly harbouring some love for their family, aren't great fathers and love battle above all else.

Not that I'm saying my word is final or anything, but I believe it's a valid point. And besides, it's also all about opinion when you're judging fatherhood. I mean, these days, in the media, you hear all kinds of scientific stories about studies showing that mothers who leave their children with nannies meaning that their children won't have a bond with their mother. It's as if everything some parents - that think they're doing the best for their child - do anymore is wrong, as if they should work harder than they already do. And you also have to think about it in terms of how the child feels about the parent themselves too.

Trunks, for example, idolized his father, despite the fact that they apparently never spent time with each other outside training and Vegeta didn't seem to care about him in anything other than training him to be stronger than Gohan and Goten.

[AleezaChocolat]

@ TheDevilsCorpse: I don't mean to offend . . . but I think you're projecting your own experiences onto the Vegeta/Trunks relationship too much. Fact is, we really don't know what the daily-life relationship between Vegeta and Trunks was like, because it was never shown in the manga. *shrug*

We do know that kid-Trunks loved and idolized his father . . . and that, even as a teenager (at the end of DBZ), Trunks seemed to have a normal relationship with his dad. In fact, after Buu, Vegeta appeared more at ease with himself and more fatherly than ever (joking with Goku about how lazy their sons were, and threatening to cut Trunks' allowance in half, etc.). Same goes for DBGT, in which Trunks teased Giru that his mother was scarier and more dangerous than his father.

So it doesn't appear that Vegeta and Trunks ever had issues with each other in the series. . . .

Sure, fighting seems to have been their big father/son "bonding" thing (the second Daizenshuu states that Trunks "received gifted education from Vegeta," once he became old enough to fight, learning how to manipulate ki, etc.). But I don't see how that means Vegeta ignored Trunks outside of training, or that his only interest in the kid was to make him stronger than Goten and Gohan, etc.

Heck, in the Daizenshuu 7 Human Radical index, it says that Vegeta "gradually began to change" with the birth of his son and that Trunks was "spoiled by Vegeta and Bulma" both. That sounds a lot less cold than some of you guys are making it out to be.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Vegeta was neglectful. There's no denying that.
Bulma even says that her and Vegeta weren't "together", which explains everything. The only reason he stayed at Capsule Corp at first was because they could supply him with the proper resources to achieve Super Saiyan. At that point in time, he didn't feel anything toward Bulma. But after meeting Future Trunks, Vegeta became proud of how strong his son would later become. And only after he spent time with his son did he get a sense of family and began to appreciate Bulma as well.

But the thing that irkes me is that I don't remember it saying anywhere if Vegeta and Bulma ever got married. :/

Goku was never a sturdy father figure either tho. He only spent half of Gohan's childhood with him and Chi Chi.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Sure, fighting seems to have been their big father/son "bonding" thing (the second Daizenshuu states that Trunks "received gifted education from Vegeta," once he became old enough to fight, learning how to manipulate ki, etc.). But I don't see how that means Vegeta ignored Trunks outside of training, or that his only interest in the kid was to make him stronger than Goten and Gohan, etc.

Heck, in the Daizenshuu 7 Human Radical index, it says that Vegeta "gradually began to change" with the birth of his son and that Trunks was "spoiled by Vegeta and Bulma" both. That sounds a lot less cold than some of you guys are making it out to be.

But nothing really suggests that Vegeta and Trunks did have a bond outside of training. And Trunks still loving and idolizing his father doesn't mean that Vegeta necessarily spent time with him outside of training. Lots of kids love and idolize their fathers even though they may not spend much time with them, because at the end of the day, they're their fathers and most kids tend to look up to their fathers, especially when you're an eight-year-old kid with a cool, powerful dad who taught you how to fight and stuff.

Yes, Vegeta gradully began to change, and it's stated within the manga himself that he loved his family. But he didn't admit it, and he certainly didn't show it.

As for the "spoiled by Vegeta and Bulma", I can't work an explanation around that. Perhaps whenever Trunks did something good in training (like landing a blow on his face, as we see in the manga), Vegeta would take him out to the amusement park.

But the thing that irkes me is that I don't remember it saying anywhere if Vegeta and Bulma ever got married. :/

Future Trunks told Goku that Vegeta and Bulma never got married, but later contradicts himself by berating Vegeta for not saving "his wife and kid" from #20. Although he could've just said that to make a point, since "that woman you knocked up and your kid" probably wouldn't make as much of an impact. Vegeta didn't call him out on it, but perhaps he was just occupied with #20 to care about what Trunks said. Either way, I don't think they were married back then, and Bulma says "You think I'd live with that jerk?!"

Later, in the Boo arc, Vegeta yells "She's my wife!" when Goku offers to let the old Kaioshin feel up Bulma. Again, he could've just said it for impact, since we know that beforehand, Vegeta has never actually admitted his love for his family, and marriage would obviously be a blatant statement of love. It's probably not something that Toriyama gave a second thought about, but I personally think that Vegeta and Bulma only got married after the Boo arc, after Vegeta had finally admitted his love for his family.

[Fox666]

Didn't Vegeta said something more like "Don't offer the wife from others!"? That's not so direct.

I suppose you can call a woman whom someone had a child and live togheder "wife" even if they aren't officially married.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Didn't Vegeta said something more like "Don't offer the wife from others!"? That's not so direct.

I suppose you can call a woman whom someone had a child and live togheder "wife" even if they aren't officially married.

I'm not sure what it is in the original version, but in Viz Vegeta says something like, "That's my wife! Give him a picture of your own wife!"

I don't really know anyone who calls a woman who they had a child with and live together with "wife" without actually being their wife, unless it's a joke.

[AleezaChocolat]

But the thing that irkes me is that I don't remember it saying anywhere if Vegeta and Bulma ever got married. :/

Piccolo Daimo already covered this, but I just wanted to to add that the daizenshuus also refer to Bulma and Vegeta as husband and wife, post-Cell . . .

"After his marriage, [Vegeta] appeared as a character who had feelings of attachment creep inside him somewhere, while keeping his cool demeanor." (link)

[AleezaChocolat]

But nothing really suggests that Vegeta and Trunks did have a bond outside of training. And Trunks still loving and idolizing his father doesn't mean that Vegeta necessarily spent time with him outside of training. [snip] Yes, Vegeta gradully began to change, and it's stated within the manga himself that he loved his family. But he didn't admit it, and he certainly didn't show it.

That's true. I was just saying that that there's no evidence that Trunks ever angsted for more in their relationship, etc. Obviously, Vegeta isn't the type of person to freely express his feelings, and training was his main outlet/way of bonding . . . but it worked well for them, since Trunks and Vegeta appeared to have a pretty good, mellow relationship throughout the series. That's all. XD

As for the "spoiled by Vegeta and Bulma", I can't work an explanation around that. Perhaps whenever Trunks did something good in training (like landing a blow on his face, as we see in the manga), Vegeta would take him out to the amusement park.

I agree . . . that line confused me greatly, lol. But I rationalized it like you did, so I guess it works?

[Piccolo Daimao]

But nothing really suggests that Vegeta and Trunks did have a bond outside of training. And Trunks still loving and idolizing his father doesn't mean that Vegeta necessarily spent time with him outside of training. [snip] Yes, Vegeta gradully began to change, and it's stated within the manga himself that he loved his family. But he didn't admit it, and he certainly didn't show it.

That's true. I was just saying that that there's no evidence that Trunks ever angsted for more in their relationship, etc. Obviously, Vegeta isn't the type of person to freely express his feelings, and training was his main outlet/way of bonding . . . but it worked well for them, since Trunks and Vegeta appeared to have a pretty good, mellow relationship throughout the series. That's all. XD

Yeah, I agree.

"After his marriage, [Vegeta] appeared as a character who had feelings of attachment creep inside him somewhere, while keeping his cool demeanor." (link)

See, I don't like that. Because if Vegeta never admitted love for his family before, then it would be a massive contradiction, because marriage is a blatant statement of love. It's not as if it was a Green Card situation or something. I know that marriage in DB seems to just be a verbal statement (like at the 23rd TB, when the announcer and everyone said that Goku and Chi-Chi had got married after Goku had just said "Yes" to Chi-Chi's proposal), but even so, it just doesn't make a lick of sense to have Vegeta get married to Bulma before he ever admits his love for his family.

[hleV]

Bulma forced Vegeta to marry her or else she would've disallowed him to use the gravity room.

[Michsi]

See, I don't like that. Because if Vegeta never admitted love for his family before, then it would be a massive contradiction, because marriage is a blatant statement of love. It's not as if it was a Green Card situation or something. I know that marriage in DB seems to just be a verbal statement (like at the 23rd TB, when the announcer and everyone said that Goku and Chi-Chi had got married after Goku had just said "Yes" to Chi-Chi's proposal), but even so, it just doesn't make a lick of sense to have Vegeta get married to Bulma before he ever admits his love for his family.

If you are referring to his little relapse in the Buu saga - iirc, he admited that he had come to love the earth (and I'm sure Trunks and Bulma where the biggest reason). Babidi's spell was supposed to help him lose those emotions.

[Piccolo Daimao]

See, I don't like that. Because if Vegeta never admitted love for his family before, then it would be a massive contradiction, because marriage is a blatant statement of love. It's not as if it was a Green Card situation or something. I know that marriage in DB seems to just be a verbal statement (like at the 23rd TB, when the announcer and everyone said that Goku and Chi-Chi had got married after Goku had just said "Yes" to Chi-Chi's proposal), but even so, it just doesn't make a lick of sense to have Vegeta get married to Bulma before he ever admits his love for his family.

If you are referring to his little relapse in the Buu saga - iirc, he admited that he had come to love the earth (and I'm sure Trunks and Bulma where the biggest reason). Babidi's spell was supposed to help him lose those emotions.

Yeah, but he never outright admitted that he loved his family. He did say that he'd settled into the comfortable life on Earth, but he hated it, wanting to return to his former self. In the Boo arc, when Goku said that they should postpone their match to fight Boo or else Boo would kill everyone including Bulma and Trunks, Vegeta just shouted at Goku to shut up and that he denied caring for them.

So he admitted loving life on Earth to Goku, but wouldn't admit loving his family.

[Piccolo Daimao]

See, I don't like that. Because if Vegeta never admitted love for his family before, then it would be a massive contradiction, because marriage is a blatant statement of love. It's not as if it was a Green Card situation or something. I know that marriage in DB seems to just be a verbal statement (like at the 23rd TB, when the announcer and everyone said that Goku and Chi-Chi had got married after Goku had just said "Yes" to Chi-Chi's proposal), but even so, it just doesn't make a lick of sense to have Vegeta get married to Bulma before he ever admits his love for his family.

If you are referring to his little relapse in the Buu saga - iirc, he admited that he had come to love the earth (and I'm sure Trunks and Bulma where the biggest reason). Babidi's spell was supposed to help him lose those emotions.

Yeah, but he never outright admitted that he loved his family. He did say that he'd settled into the comfortable life on Earth, but he hated it, wanting to return to his former self. In the Boo arc, when Goku said that they should postpone their match to fight Boo or else Boo would kill everyone including Bulma and Trunks, Vegeta just shouted at Goku to shut up and that he denied caring for them.

So he admitted loving life on Earth to Goku, but wouldn't admit loving his family.

[Michsi]

Yeah, but he never outright admitted that he loved his family. He did say that he'd settled into the comfortable life on Earth, but he hated it, wanting to return to his former self. In the Boo arc, when Goku said that they should postpone their match to fight Boo or else Boo would kill everyone including Bulma and Trunks, Vegeta just shouted at Goku to shut up and that he denied caring for them.

That was obviously him being in denial. Goku even says that outright. That he was lying to himself and Babidi's spell didn't have the effect he was hoping for.

He admited outright to loving his family minutes after that. Without having the spell taken away or him having an epiphany about his true feelings.

So he admitted loving life on Earth to Goku, but wouldn't admit loving his family.

It wouldn't make any sense, for him to love his life on earth and not Trunks and Bulma. These two were pretty much his life on earth. What else was there for him?
And as I said above, he was in denial about not caring for Bulma and Trunks.

[Eire]

Your guys are so romantic. Why do you consider that marriage is a result of love? In my grandpa's generation it was told that it goes in backward order. Maybe it as a matter of rising Trunks as his heir or anything else, or just meaningless ceremony to make Bulma to stop insisting? No matter what the cause was, we have no indications that in the time of Boo Saga he didn't develop a kind of love (as I wrote before, the Saiyan concept of love and mating would be far from our expectations). He doesn't seem to be the type that realizes it in everyday life, in the ways we expect, but we can judge that he at least had a piece of the heart in right place.

[Michsi]

He doesn't seem to be the type that realizes it in everyday life, in the ways we expect, but we can judge that he at least had a piece of the heart in right place.

But that's the thing, he did realize it. It was one of the two reasons he let Babidi put a spell on him.

Why do you consider that marriage is a result of love?

I'm not even that sure that they DID marry, but I can imagine Vegeta doing it for Bulma, if she asked him. But the act alone of doing it for someone else is pretty telling. He doesn't seem like the kind to care about such things, but if he did go through it, he did it for her or for Trunks.