Vegeta: Neglectful Father?

[vegetaslegacy15]

Do you think Akira Toriyama meant to make Goku such a neglectful selfish father? Also in my opinion Vegeta is a better father. At least he spends time with Trunks and stuff.

[Drabaz]

I don't know if Vegeta ever actually spends time with Trunks. The only time I recall is when Vegeta was training in the gravity chamber and Trunks just had the privilege to be in the same room as him. I do agree that it counts as spending time with him, but I'm sure Vegeta neglected Trunks even when he was around. Goku atleast understood the importance of spending time with his son. We see this durring the few days of peace before the Cell Games. But even then, a few days of quality time does not forgive years of absence from Goku. The only good and non-neglectful father would be Kuririn, in my opinion!

[Herms]

He never hugged Trunks until right before he blew himself up fighting Boo.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta just seems to end up spending time with Trunks as default for training with him. It's probably only after the Boo arc, after he stops being a jerk and admits that he loves his family, that he actively takes an interest in Trunks other than his strength and building him up to be stronger than Gohan and Goten.

Before his reformation, the only time I can recall Vegeta caring about or spending time with his son outside of training is when he agrees to take him to the amusement park after he lands a blow on his face.

[vegetaslegacy15]

He never hugged Trunks until right before he blew himself up fighting Boo.

Thats still better than Goku. He let his son be kidnapped. Then he died and he didn't even give a crap that Piccolo was basically abusing Gohan. He did not let himself be wished back. I know that was to keep evil people from attacking the earth. But it did not even work and it means he must not have cared to much about his family. Then he put his son Goten into danger by letting him fight boo and jerking around in SSJ 3 while fighting fat Boo.

Vegeta on the other hand lived with Trunks. He was atleast there for Trunks. Well in a way. He trained him and was very lenient with him compared to how he was with Future Trunks.

Vegeta just seems to end up spending time with Trunks as default for training with him. It's probably only after the Boo arc, after he stops being a jerk and admits that he loves his family, that he actively takes an interest in Trunks other than his strength and building him up to be stronger than Gohan and Goten.

Before his reformation, the only time I can recall Vegeta caring about or spending time with his son outside of training is when he agrees to take him to the amusement park after he lands a blow on his face.

Its still better than Goku who would always seemed to be off training somewhere or going away. While Vegeta was constantly there and never really left after Trunks was born. Except maybe during the 3 years they were training for the androids. I don't remember if Trunks was alive during any of those three years.

[Fox666]

Trunks was born during these 3 years, however he was still a baby. Anyway Vegeta was training in the gravity champer built by Dr. Brief, so technically Vegeta didn't "left".

[Michsi]

Thats still better than Goku. He let his son be kidnapped.

He let his son be kidnapped? Because I kinda remember him sacrificing his life to protect him and the other time being a bit too dead to anything against Piccolo?

Then he died and he didn't even give a crap that Piccolo was basically abusing Gohan. He did not let himself be wished back.

We have no idea when or if he ever find out about Gohan being taken by Piccolo. And even if he did, there wasn't anything he could about it beause 1) he was dead 2) they were running out of time and he barely managed to get strong enough to handle Vegeta as it was 3) even Muten Roshi admited that Piccolo was right and Gohan needed to go though this

I know that was to keep evil people from attacking the earth. But it did not even work and it means he must not have cared to much about his family.

What? I don't really understand this sentence. If it weren't for Gohan being there and fighting, Vegeta would have won.
It did work.

Then he put his son Goten into danger by letting him fight boo and jerking around in SSJ 3 while fighting fat Boo.

Questionable or not, he clearly stated his reasons. It wasn't the same thing with Gohan and Cell.

Although I do admit he changes a lot after reaching SSJ.

Nevertheless, we see that he is a good father when he is around

In Vegeta's case, yes he was there, but a father this is there and yet has little interaction with his family is somehow worse.
Then again, seeing how Trunks loves him the way he is, he didn't seem to care much about being hugged or something like that. Vegeta's aloofness made hi cooler in his eyes.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Anyway, I don't know why people are making cases for either Goku or Vegeta being better fathers than each other and trying to soften certain aspects of their fatherhood when, let's face it, they're both pure-blooded Saiyans who, while possibly harbouring some love for their family, aren't great fathers and love battle above all else.

[ulisa]

Given that the Son Family tends to contain my favorite characters, I will admit to being bias here. However, while I think that Goku is probably not going to win Father of the Year, I do think he is far from a neglectful or bad father.

1) He let his son be kidnapped--I actually recall Goku challenging Raditz right out, threatening him if he came a step closer. I also recall Goku charging right after his brother, despite knowing he and Piccolo would probably not be a match for him, and eventually dying himself restraining his brother so Piccolo could kill him

2) Not coming back after Piccolo took Gohan--Well, this one, we never really know for sure, that I recall, that Goku even knew Piccolo had his son. When Goku passed onto the other world, Bulma was holding Gohan and Piccolo had shown no interest in his child. If no one informed him, how was he supposed to know?

3) Goku dying during Cell to keep evil people from attacking the earth--This one I actually give Goku major props for. I've spoken with a few other DBZ fans, close friends of mine, who are actually parents and they tell me that a sacrifice like that, to keep danger away from your family/friends is the most selfless thing you can do and if given the decision between staying with their family and danger still being present or leaving their family and eliminating that threat, they would take the latter, regardless of how it would hurt. Is it fair to Gohan? Well, no, of course not. Is he going to hurt? Absolutely. However, does it ultimately have his best interests at heart...well, I would say yes.

4) Letting Goten fight Majin Buu---All things considered, Goku was technically dead here. He'd been granted his 24 hours to come back to earth and when seeing a threat, he opted to train his son and Trunks to deal with it. Remember, the fact that Goku got his life back was not foreseen or expected. Once he was given it, he jumped right into the battle.

As for Vegeta and Trunks , I personally like Vegeta as a father, though I like him more in the later episodes. He certainly seemed to get better than the Cell/Android arc. However, citing him as being better than Goku because he's there is a bit premature. A father who is there but does not interact is around the same level as a father who is dead. For some odd reason, Trunks and Vegeta's relationship works, which may have to do with Trunks having some of Vegeta's characteristics.

Just my two cents
Ulisa

[Eire]

(Delete long post about financial responsibility about the beings the Goku conceived and overall responsibility about their upbringing and education. When you are over 20 happy go lucky fathers who think that groceries grows in Fridge aren't funny any more. Vegeta at least had a spouse with money allowing her for royal kept man, while Goku should take his responsibility)

The fact that Vegeta never hugged his son doesn't mean that he was a bad parent. It's better to say that he seemed as a bad parent for us, raised in particular modern, western culture. We can only wonder how Saiyan's standards were, but I doubt that they paid attention to physic ways of showing affection or long, meaningful conversations. In fact our concept of parenthood involving close, full of gestures relationship is not so common among human cultures around the world. Read about Victorian, medieval, or nowadays Muslim upbringing- people who usually claim to have lots of love and respect for their parents, despite having totally different relationship that we could expect.
Therefore I wouldn't expect hugging and kissing from person of a warrior race. Also high classes tends to have more formal and distant relationship with children. We see that Vegeta cared for his son so he showed his attention in only way he could know- for rising him for a warrior and helping developing his abilities.
And, at least in one version, they enjoyed walking togehter

[Piccolo Daimao]

(Delete long post about financial responsibility about the beings the Goku conceived and overall responsibility about their upbringing and education. When you are over 20 happy go lucky fathers who think that groceries grows in Fridge aren't funny any more. Vegeta at least had a spouse with money allowing her for royal kept man, while Goku should take his responsibility)

Well, Goku and his family had Gyu-mao's fortune to live in, which was only beginning to run out around the Boo arc (when Goku was dead). They didn't really need financial responsibility from Goku because they already had it from Gyu-mao and were living a perfectly comfortable life.

[Michsi]

(Delete long post about financial responsibility about the beings the Goku conceived and overall responsibility about their upbringing and education. When you are over 20 happy go lucky fathers who think that groceries grows in Fridge aren't funny any more. Vegeta at least had a spouse with money allowing her for royal kept man, while Goku should take his responsibility)

Yet they never seemed to go hungry and had enough food to satisfy two saiyan appetites. Also Goku had been willing to go get a job after the whole android/Cell fiasco. And iirc, Toryama said that the tournament money Goku won sustained them for quite a while, so theoretically he did provide for them. The 2008 special showed that the Sons grow their own food (with Goku being the one to work the field no less) and I believe he goes out hunting or fishing to bring meat to the table like he did as a kid. Yes, not the best father in the world with his prolonged absence, but he did take responsibility for them, which is more than I can say for Vegeta.

[Piccolo Daimao]

And iirc, Toryama said that the tournament money Goku won sustained them for quite a while, so theoretically he did provide for them.

I don't recall this. Could you provide a source, please? Not that I don't believe you or anything, but I haven't heard this comment from Toriyama before. Plus, in the manga, Goku and Chi-Chi immediately set off on Kinto'un after the conclusion of the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budokai, with no money being handed over before and nothing suggesting that they ever returned to collect it.

[Michsi]

And iirc, Toryama said that the tournament money Goku won sustained them for quite a while, so theoretically he did provide for them.

I don't recall this. Could you provide a source, please? Not that I don't believe you or anything, but I haven't heard this comment from Toriyama before. Plus, in the manga, Goku and Chi-Chi immediately set off on Kinto'un after the conclusion of the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budokai, with no money being handed over before and nothing suggesting that they ever returned to collect it.

This might take me a while to find again. I'm almost 100% sure I read it in an interview tough. And it seemed logical.

[Eire]

Yes, the strong, healthy and unemployed man really need a praise for working on fields instead of his woman. Besides, the garden doesn't seem to be very large, so I'd rather treat is as a support, not the main source of the supplies. (unless you have really large fields it's impossible to feed even a samll family with your own crops). Hunting or fishing too usually doesn't work as free source of food, even if we eliminate problems caused by licences and lack of the veterinary watch over the meat.
The fact that they usually milked Chi-Chi's father also doesn't rise his values in my eyes since it's not the model of parenthood that I appreciate. And yet, while having such a dangerous lifestyle our hero didn't manage to have a proper financial safety in case of something.
I wonder how Toriyama just didn't care about such an aspects in real life that even if he mentions them he treats it just like a joke.

[Michsi]

Yes, the strong, healthy and unemployed man really need a praise for working on fields instead of his woman. Besides, the garden doesn't seem to be very large, so I'd rather treat is as a support, not the main source of the supplies. (unless you have really large fields it's impossible to feed even a samll family with your own crops). Hunting or fishing too usually doesn't work as free source of food, even if we eliminate problems caused by licences and lack of the veterinary watch over the meat.

You are making it sound like he is the archetypical mysoginistic jerk that stays home on the couch in front of the TV with a can of beer in one hand, a sandwhich in the other, while his woman is out working her health out to go and give him money. Sorry but no. If anything, the only character that ever leeched of his woman in this series is Vegeta, and probably Yamcha too ealier.
I repeat. They always have plenty of food. They have a house. They have a car. They have clothes. I have plenty of examples of families that live only on what they grow and get money from what they sell. Happy healthy families, like the Sons seem to be.
Hunting worked fine for Goku for all his life and it seems to work well for them now. We were never ever given an in universe reason to believe they lacked anything. They were a modest family, but not poor.

The fact that they usually milked Chi-Chi's father also doesn't rise his values in my eyes since it's not the model of parenthood that I appreciate. And yet, while having such a dangerous lifestyle our hero didn't manage to have a proper financial safety in case of something.

I don't ever remember anybody saiying they milked Chichi's father for money, because as I recall, he didn't have any left after his castle burned down.

I wonder how Toriyama just didn't care about such an aspects in real life that even if he mentions them he treats it just like a joke.

Because it's a kids manga about fighting and adventures , not a life story about a family strugeling to earn money. Whatever happened between those adventures, we were supposed to believe they somehow made it work. And they obviously did.

[Eire]

(Not to go off topic, but that was you who brought their field. You know how hard is now to make a normal life with growing plants? Unless you are owner of huge farm taken from Isaura or other Gone with the Wind with happy slaves singing while working it needs other activities like making ecological food that maybe can sound nice, but isn't a piece of cake. Especially when you have to wake up at 3 am to get everything ready by 8 am. I used to live like that and know how hard, endless and unfaithful kind of work is it, how much energy and management skills it requires. Not everyone say about their misfortunes, so I would be careful to what other's life seems to be.)

Sorry, my suspension of disbelief for DB was broken while I was a kid when I saw an army working without supplies. I can't help that careless treatment of everything (including fighting) here lowers it's rating in my eyes. Other authors making comics and cartoons for kids surprisingly managed to fill holes between fights and adventures to not make an impression that the whole story is floating in vast space. The author give an impression that money doesn't matter, because all goodies fall from the sky? I have the right to criticize it.

The fact that they usually milked Chi-Chi's father also doesn't rise his values in my eyes since it's not the model of parenthood that I appreciate. And yet, while having such a dangerous lifestyle our hero didn't manage to have a proper financial safety in case of something.

I don't ever remember anybody saiying they milked Chichi's father for money, because as I recall, he didn't have any left after his castle burned down.

Chi-Chi had "her father's money" that she run out before Boo saga.

[Michsi]

(Not to go off topic, but that was you who brought their field. You know how hard is now to make a normal life with growing plants? Unless you are owner of huge farm taken from Isaura or other Gone with the Wind with happy slaves singing while working it needs other activities like making ecological food that maybe can sound nice, but isn't a piece of cake. Especially when you have to wake up at 3 am to get everything ready by 8 am. I used to live like that and know how hard, endless and unfaithful kind of work is it, how much energy and management skills it requires. Not everyone say about their misfortunes, so I would be careful to what other's life seems to be.)

As I said, I have friends with families that live off the land, without big farms or large fields and are far happier and are better off than a great number of families that live in the city where both parents have jobs. Families that got up at 4 or 5 (I never remember as early as 3 though) and worked all day until well after dark.
And I keep bringing up how well off they were , it's right there in the story. Whatever they did to sustain themselves it happened off screen.
I repeat, aside from his absence, there is no reason to believe Goku was neglecting them in any way. You seriosly think that if they did have serious problems Goku wouldn't do anything about it? I mentioned this before, he DID plan on getting a job. He promised Chichi he would and I'm pretty sure meant it at that time.

Sorry, my suspension of disbelief for DB was broken while I was a kid when I saw an army working without supplies. I can't help that careless treatment of everything (including fighting) here lowers it's rating in my eyes. Other authors making comics and cartoons for kids surprisingly managed to fill holes between fights and adventures to not make an impression that the whole story is floating in vast space. The author give an impression that money doesn't matter, because all goodies fall from the sky? I have the right to criticize it.

You have every right to critize it , I critized it plenty of times, even as a kid. But with the examples I gave it's obvious the author made sure to have it seem that they were ok. Plenty of things may have happened off screen, it's was jusr never focused on, because the story never neede it too.

The fact that they usually milked Chi-Chi's father also doesn't rise his values in my eyes since it's not the model of parenthood that I appreciate. And yet, while having such a dangerous lifestyle our hero didn't manage to have a proper financial safety in case of something.

What exactly was he supposed to do?

Chi-Chi had "her father's money" that she run out before Boo saga.

Quote? I seriosly don't remember this ever being mentioned in an interview or in the story. I can't find "the tournament money" interview but I'm pretty sure it's out there somewhere. This, though I don't remember.

[Eire]

Mishi, moment where Gohan says that he wants to participate in tournament, and when his mother says that she thought about mortgage, because the money were gone.

I don't say that Goku was bad parent after all, but just point one thing that he lacked and I think wasn't developed right. Maybe I wouldn't even notice that if it wasn't Toriyama who made Chi-Chi's effort to have money and proper education for children just nothing more than mockery. That is the same level as making Freeza's army just decoration. Wasting the things that would keep reader's eye between fights and adventures and make the world more reliable.

[vegetaslegacy15]

Well okay i will admit the thing with Raditz was not bad. He did try to protect Gohan. But when Goku was with King Kai and I am sure King Kai would've told Goku. Which Goku would've probably told Piccolo to go easier on him if he cared to much about his son going through shit.

I never thought Goku did not provide for his family. They got to live off something. But they also lived off of Ox Kings treasure I believe. You gotta live off someone.

(Delete long post about financial responsibility about the beings the Goku conceived and overall responsibility about their upbringing and education. When you are over 20 happy go lucky fathers who think that groceries grows in Fridge aren't funny any more. Vegeta at least had a spouse with money allowing her for royal kept man, while Goku should take his responsibility)

The fact that Vegeta never hugged his son doesn't mean that he was a bad parent. It's better to say that he seemed as a bad parent for us, raised in particular modern, western culture. We can only wonder how Saiyan's standards were, but I doubt that they paid attention to physic ways of showing affection or long, meaningful conversations. In fact our concept of parenthood involving close, full of gestures relationship is not so common among human cultures around the world. Read about Victorian, medieval, or nowadays Muslim upbringing- people who usually claim to have lots of love and respect for their parents, despite having totally different relationship that we could expect.
Therefore I wouldn't expect hugging and kissing from person of a warrior race. Also high classes tends to have more formal and distant relationship with children. We see that Vegeta cared for his son so he showed his attention in only way he could know- for rising him for a warrior and helping developing his abilities.
And, at least in one version, they enjoyed walking togehter

Point is Vegeta is always there for the most part since Trunks was born. Did Goku ever hug Gohan?

Yes, the strong, healthy and unemployed man really need a praise for working on fields instead of his woman. Besides, the garden doesn't seem to be very large, so I'd rather treat is as a support, not the main source of the supplies. (unless you have really large fields it's impossible to feed even a samll family with your own crops). Hunting or fishing too usually doesn't work as free source of food, even if we eliminate problems caused by licences and lack of the veterinary watch over the meat.

You are making it sound like he is the archetypical mysoginistic jerk that stays home on the couch in front of the TV with a can of beer in one hand, a sandwhich in the other, while his woman is out working her health out to go and give him money. Sorry but no. If anything, the only character that ever leeched of his woman in this series is Vegeta, and probably Yamcha too ealier.
I repeat. They always have plenty of food. They have a house. They have a car. They have clothes. I have plenty of examples of families that live only on what they grow and get money from what they sell. Happy healthy families, like the Sons seem to be.
Hunting worked fine for Goku for all his life and it seems to work well for them now. We were never ever given an in universe reason to believe they lacked anything. They were a modest family, but not poor.

The fact that they usually milked Chi-Chi's father also doesn't rise his values in my eyes since it's not the model of parenthood that I appreciate. And yet, while having such a dangerous lifestyle our hero didn't manage to have a proper financial safety in case of something.

I don't ever remember anybody saiying they milked Chichi's father for money, because as I recall, he didn't have any left after his castle burned down.

I wonder how Toriyama just didn't care about such an aspects in real life that even if he mentions them he treats it just like a joke.

Because it's a kids manga about fighting and adventures , not a life story about a family strugeling to earn money. Whatever happened between those adventures, we were supposed to believe they somehow made it work. And they obviously did.

[/quote]

Well Chichi could've also had some sort of job. But yeah Goku deffinitely is not a jerk he provides food and for awhile I guess he provided financially with the money from the Budokais. Besides who knows maybe he got money for saving the world from King Piccolo.