Was Piccolo shafted by Toriyama in favor of Vegeta?

[cRookie_Monster]

Piccolo is also a lot older character than Vegeta. Did Vegeta get shafted by not being in DB?

I think it makes sense.

Yeah but I am certain that Vegeta's character was not even an inkling of a thought back in DB. Hell the idea of Saiyans was not even in Mr. Toriyama's head at the time.

He did however have the idea of Piccolo being an alien !!!!!!

Agreed. I wasn't suggesting the answer to my question was "yes". I was just making a point about Piccolo having a lot of airplay Vegeta didn't get. So if Piccolo took a back seat later on, its actually kinda not surprising.

[Herms]

I don't think so. He fires the Gekiretsu Kodan, a blast so powerful that #17 had to dive out of the way and #18 believed he'd killed Cell. He later trains in the RoSaT along with Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks, while Tenshinhan, who's already long been shafted, declines. And at the Cell Games, he, Vegeta and Trunks are the only warriors who can hold their own against the Cell Juniors.

He trains more, but Goku rather roughly tells him that he's still no match for Cell, and his big contribution in the Cell Games is putting up maybe a decent fight against one of the seven minions who Gohan wipes out in a second. Even if he as strong as Vegeta and Trunks (which I don't really think), those two are pretty useless by the Cell Games too, and Trunks only remains prominent because he has to go back to his own timeline and look cool beating the weaker villains there. So I think Piccolo's already fallen hopelessly behind the top-tier guys by the Cell Games, and unlike Vegeta he doesn't have higher super transformations to get him closer to the top. Maybe if Toriyama had really wanted to he could have come up with some kind of Super Namekian 2/3 for him, but I think that would seem pretty forced, which is a problem the various Super Saiyan forms already run into pretty hard. And I just don't think it would be very convincing to simply say "well, he trained really hard so now he's as strong as a Super Saiyan 2". I think strength-wise Piccolo's pretty played out by the Cell Games. But compare that to the Boo arc where even though he's not as strong as the Saiyans he still plays a fairly important role in the plot from the 25th TB up until getting absorbed by Boo. So all in all I think Piccolo's treated a lot better in the Boo arc than the Cell one, where he gets his long built-up remerger with God only to have that power become meaningless pretty quick. For that matter, despite Gohan being lots stronger I think Piccolo has it better in the Boo arc than him.

[Michsi]

He trains more, but Goku rather roughly tells him that he's still no match for Cell, and his big contribution in the Cell Games is putting up maybe a decent fight against one of the seven minions who Gohan wipes out in a second. Even if he as strong as Vegeta and Trunks (which I don't really think), those two are pretty useless by the Cell Games too, and Trunks only remains prominent because he has to go back to his own timeline and look cool beating the weaker villains there.

This was my point, he and Vegeta stand on equal grounds in the Cell arc regarding their worth as warriors. They both get their turn as the main player of the story and both get pushed back once Goku and Gohan come out of the RoSAT. The only thing Vegeta gets more is that shot at Cell that distracts him and allows Gohan's wave to get the upper hand, but that was a redemption scene imo. Since this thread is about Vegeta and Piccolo and how their roles influenced eachother. He didn't fall hopelessly behind until the Buu arc.

Maybe if Toriyama had really wanted to he could have come up with some kind of Super Namekian 2/3 for him, but I think that would seem pretty forced, which is a problem the various Super Saiyan forms already run into pretty hard. And I just don't think it would be very convincing to simply say "well, he trained really hard so now he's as strong as a Super Saiyan 2".

But....it worked once.

So all in all I think Piccolo's treated a lot better in the Boo arc than the Cell one, where he gets his long built-up remerger with God only to have that power become meaningless pretty quick. For that matter, despite Gohan being lots stronger I think Piccolo has it better in the Boo arc than him.

A lot of fans judge a character by his awesome moments in the story, and his fight against Cell and 17 were just that. His role in the Buu Saga, while entertaining, lacks those moments. Everyone's power ups become meaningless unless they're Goku (and once Gohan ) so nothing new here.

[vegetaslegacy15]

Piccolo is also a lot older character than Vegeta. Did Vegeta get shafted by not being in DB?

I think it makes sense.

Yeah but I am certain that Vegeta's character was not even an inkling of a thought back in DB. Hell the idea of Saiyans was not even in Mr. Toriyama's head at the time.

He did however have the idea of Piccolo being an alien !!!!!!

Agreed. I wasn't suggesting the answer to my question was "yes". I was just making a point about Piccolo having a lot of airplay Vegeta didn't get. So if Piccolo took a back seat later on, its actually kinda not surprising.

Oh i misunderstood your post. I'm sorry!

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think so. He fires the Gekiretsu Kodan, a blast so powerful that #17 had to dive out of the way and #18 believed he'd killed Cell. He later trains in the RoSaT along with Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks, while Tenshinhan, who's already long been shafted, declines. And at the Cell Games, he, Vegeta and Trunks are the only warriors who can hold their own against the Cell Juniors.

He trains more, but Goku rather roughly tells him that he's still no match for Cell, and his big contribution in the Cell Games is putting up maybe a decent fight against one of the seven minions who Gohan wipes out in a second. Even if he as strong as Vegeta and Trunks (which I don't really think), those two are pretty useless by the Cell Games too, and Trunks only remains prominent because he has to go back to his own timeline and look cool beating the weaker villains there. So I think Piccolo's already fallen hopelessly behind the top-tier guys by the Cell Games, and unlike Vegeta he doesn't have higher super transformations to get him closer to the top. Maybe if Toriyama had really wanted to he could have come up with some kind of Super Namekian 2/3 for him, but I think that would seem pretty forced, which is a problem the various Super Saiyan forms already run into pretty hard. And I just don't think it would be very convincing to simply say "well, he trained really hard so now he's as strong as a Super Saiyan 2". I think strength-wise Piccolo's pretty played out by the Cell Games. But compare that to the Boo arc where even though he's not as strong as the Saiyans he still plays a fairly important role in the plot from the 25th TB up until getting absorbed by Boo. So all in all I think Piccolo's treated a lot better in the Boo arc than the Cell one, where he gets his long built-up remerger with God only to have that power become meaningless pretty quick. For that matter, despite Gohan being lots stronger I think Piccolo has it better in the Boo arc than him.

I understand what you mean, and maybe he doesn't do anything of significant importance after first-form Cell powers up. But I don't think he was shafted until the Boo arc, because in the Cell Games, he was still one of the main fighters and, along with Vegeta and Trunks, was one of the last ones standing against the Cell Juniors. That doesn't say "shafted" to me.

Having what ended up being his one opportunity at fighting thrown away because of god-respect-bullshit and then being overshadowed by the Super Saiyans, Fusion and whatnot...that says "shafted" to me. Not that you were arguing it wasn't, but I don't think Piccolo had already been shafted in the late Cell arc.

[Vegeta Jr]

Having Piccolo become Majin controlled makes no sense, his evil has waned since late Saiyan saga and since then has fused with 2 pure of heart characters.

I kind of like how they made Piccolo more of a mentor than a fighter, he does have Kami in there with him. However they still should have made him a little more comparable to the big powerhouses.

[Fox666]

Even if he as strong as Vegeta and Trunks (which I don't really think), those two are pretty useless by the Cell Games too

Something I would like to point about Cell famous "Vegeta ya Trunks" comment:

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell: “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

While "ya" doesn't necessarily exclude someone else, it also doesn't necessarily include.

Cell is being very specific in that line. He actually mentions they are "barely" fighting evenly, and he even mentions Goku's achievement in the battle. For that reason, I really doubt Cell meant anyone besides Vegeta and Trunks.

Of course this doesn't necessairly means Piccolo was miles away from Vegeta and Trunks, since Cell said the two were "barely" fighting evenly. Like you could say Zarbon (before transforming) managed to barely fight evenly with Vegeta and Dodoria don't.

[Michsi]

This ya thing again?

As far as I know this particle is only used in situations where other things are not specifically mentioned but "may be relevant or supposed." If he wanted to refer JUST to them, he would have used "to" . And this is visually backed up in the story.

[Gaffer Tape]

I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga

Piccolo's shafting comes midway through the Cell arc. He's not much good for anything after first-form Cell powers up.

Actually, I'd say his shafting comes midway through the Freeza arc. He shows up there only to be not be useful for anything. Then he spends pretty much the entire Cell arc not being useful for anything important. Hell, the Buu arc was the first time since the Saiya-jin arc that he was able to be consistently useful.

[Fox666]

If he wanted to refer JUST to them, he would have used "to".

I suppose there is no rule behind the use of such words.

[Rocketman]

Trunks was getting his ass kicked too. Vegeta was the only one who could actually fight a Cell Jr.

[Michsi]

I suppose there is no rule behind the use of such words.

These work like "and" in English. Use to to include only what is actually mentioned, and ya to include other things which are not mentioned but may be relevant or supposed:

http://www.timwerx.net/language/particles.htm#to
These particles are amoung th last things I remember from japanese class. There are people here that know more about this than me , so I can't claim this is 100% true, but from wha I have learned up until now, this is how they work.

Trunks was getting his ass kicked too. Vegeta was the only one who could actually fight a Cell Jr.

No he wasn't. If anything it even seemed like Trunks was fairing a little better than him. One hit was enough for Vegeta to claim that the Cell Jrs. were to strong.

Actually, I'd say his shafting comes midway through the Freeza arc. He shows up there only to be not be useful for anything. Then he spends pretty much the entire Cell arc not being useful for anything important. Hell, the Buu arc was the first time since the Saiya-jin arc that he was able to be consistently useful.

He saves Goku. Debatably twice. He would have never reached SSJ if it weren't for him.

[monster]

Piccolo is some weird alien dude with antenna and a turban with Vegeta I think a good quote that sums him up is "Women Want Him, Men Want to Be Him".Vegeta is like Han Solo or the Fonz of Dragonball.

He is just a much more marketable character.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga

Piccolo's shafting comes midway through the Cell arc. He's not much good for anything after first-form Cell powers up.

Actually, I'd say his shafting comes midway through the Freeza arc. He shows up there only to be not be useful for anything. Then he spends pretty much the entire Cell arc not being useful for anything important. Hell, the Buu arc was the first time since the Saiya-jin arc that he was able to be consistently useful.

Are you serious? Piccolo wasn't shafted in the Freeza arc. His shafting didn't come until the Boo arc. In the Freeza arc, Piccolo got to fight the main villain, and later in the Cell arc, he got to fight what was currently the main villain (#19) before once again fighting the actual main villain (Cell), and later was one of the only people standing, alongside Vegeta and Trunks, against the Cell Juniors.

Just because there are parts where Piccolo doesn't do anything useful doesn't mean that he was just permanently shafted. If you go by that, then I guess every single character was shafted.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga

Piccolo's shafting comes midway through the Cell arc. He's not much good for anything after first-form Cell powers up.

Actually, I'd say his shafting comes midway through the Freeza arc. He shows up there only to be not be useful for anything. Then he spends pretty much the entire Cell arc not being useful for anything important. Hell, the Buu arc was the first time since the Saiya-jin arc that he was able to be consistently useful.

Are you serious? Piccolo wasn't shafted in the Freeza arc. His shafting didn't come until the Boo arc. In the Freeza arc, Piccolo got to fight the main villain, and later in the Cell arc, he got to fight what was currently the main villain (#19) before once again fighting the actual main villain (Cell), and later was one of the only people standing, alongside Vegeta and Trunks, against the Cell Juniors.

Just because there are parts where Piccolo doesn't do anything useful doesn't mean that he was just permanently shafted. If you go by that, then I guess every single character was shafted.

[Gaffer Tape]

Are you serious? Piccolo wasn't shafted in the Freeza arc.

Yes, I am serious. And, yes, he was. Yes, he gets to fight the main villain. Big whoop. He gets this huge power up followed by this other huge power up... and has absolutely no impact on anything. His entire "fight" is a waste of time. You could edit out pretty much every single thing he does in the Freeza arc (which isn't very much at all) and never realize you were missing anything.

In the Freeza arc, Piccolo got to fight the main villain, and later in the Cell arc, he got to fight what was currently the main villain (#19) before once again fighting the actual main villain (Cell), and later was one of the only people standing, alongside Vegeta and Trunks, against the Cell Juniors.

Again I ask, "So?" In my opinion, being shafted doesn't mean, "Not being able to somewhat keep up to minor henchmen." It means impact in the story. And the Cell arc once again gives Piccolo a nasty case of what I like to call "green balls." There's this huge build up to Piccolo merging with Kami-sama and becoming as strong as the Super Saiya-jin. And what's the payoff? Nothing. He gets Cell to give some exposition, and then he gets involved in a fight with #17 that does nothing but alert Cell to where the Artificial Humans are. Then he's tossed aside and gets to stand around in the background again and contribute absolutely nothing. The only useful thing he got to do in that arc was beat around #20. After that, it was all a lot of waffling.

His shafting didn't come until the Boo arc.

No, I'd say the Buu arc is where his character was finally redeemed from the useless pile. Toriyama finally figured out an interesting way to use him that didn't involve building him up so ridiculously high only to give him absolutely nothing to do like in the previous two arcs. Piccolo stole the show in the Buu arc, the writing played to his strengths, and his character was all the better for it.

If you go by that, then I guess every single character was shafted.

Um... well... yes! Nearly every character in DB was shafted. I didn't know that was ever a point of contention. Toriyama treats most of his characters horribly. Just ask Oolong, Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Videl, and many others who started out the series with interesting things to do and interesting character traits, only to end up doing nothing but standing around in the background. At least Piccolo was finally given a chance to redeem himself from that role, even if it didn't come until near the end of the series, at a point in the series where 2/3rds of the cast were doing nothing but standing around in the background.

Piccolo, though, is shafted in a different way from most of the other characters. It seems that Toriyama tried to do things with him, but ultimately he was just used as a red herring disguised as a moment in the spotlight. So he'd get a moment to "look" cool, but it would ultimately not mean anything or accomplish anything, and it would then be followed by lots of standing around in the background.

[Michsi]

I really wouldn't call that shafted and I don't think this was what the OP meant anyway. That Piccolo's power ups didn't amount to much in the end isn't anything that is unique to him, far from it. If we were to discuss that, then the thread would be pointless because both Vegeta and Piccolo get shafted. I think the intial meaning here was throwing Piccolo out of the "big players club" and that might not have happened if Vegeta hadn't been kept in the story, because someone had to fill in the rival/anti hero/etc. role. In every other saga aside from the last one, Piccolo had a powerfull presence in the story as a warrior and he had been treated as such. He surpasses the legendary SSJ and manages to reach or come close to USSJ laster on. As a reader, even if you don't see him succeed, you are still aware of his power and what he is capable of.
Compare his fight against Freeza, against Nr.20, against Imperfect Cell, against 17. to whatever it is that he does in the Buu Saga, which by the way, ends up being just as meaningless in the long run like his power up in the Cell Saga.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Now this is an interesting turn in the question; was Piccolo shafted by ceasing to fight, or by powering up to ultimately do not much? (*Shameless attempt to seem involved after Daimao and Gaffer Tape do all the work*)

[Michsi]

Now this is an interesting turn in the question; was Piccolo shafted by ceasing to fight?

If you take into consideration that he was introduced as a fighter in a story about fighting and continued as a fighter for 3 Sagas, than yeah, that's the sort of shafting I mean.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Are you serious? Piccolo wasn't shafted in the Freeza arc.

Yes, I am serious. And, yes, he was. Yes, he gets to fight the main villain. Big whoop. He gets this huge power up followed by this other huge power up... and has absolutely no impact on anything. His entire "fight" is a waste of time. You could edit out pretty much every single thing he does in the Freeza arc (which isn't very much at all) and never realize you were missing anything.

Nonetheless, his fusion with Nail and his battle with Freeza, while it may have just been a way to fill out time, was still treated as important within the story and he was still a major fighter who, I repeat, had just fought the main villain. Even if he did stick at the sidelines (alongside Gohan, may I add, who definitely was not permanently shafted thereafter, as he got to fight and eventually defeat the main villain).

I'm not sure if we're on the same page here, but I'm talking about permanent shafting. Like what the Earthlings got. I.e. spotlight being taken off them and never shining on them again.

In the Freeza arc, Piccolo got to fight the main villain, and later in the Cell arc, he got to fight what was currently the main villain (#19) before once again fighting the actual main villain (Cell), and later was one of the only people standing, alongside Vegeta and Trunks, against the Cell Juniors.

Again I ask, "So?" In my opinion, being shafted doesn't mean, "Not being able to somewhat keep up to minor henchmen." It means impact in the story. And the Cell arc once again gives Piccolo a nasty case of what I like to call "green balls." There's this huge build up to Piccolo merging with Kami-sama and becoming as strong as the Super Saiya-jin. And what's the payoff? Nothing. He gets Cell to give some exposition, and then he gets involved in a fight with #17 that does nothing but alert Cell to where the Artificial Humans are. Then he's tossed aside and gets to stand around in the background again and contribute absolutely nothing. The only useful thing he got to do in that arc was beat around #20. After that, it was all a lot of waffling.

I understand what you mean, but even if it did turn out to be a whole load of nothing, there was still a great deal of importance placed on Piccolo's fusion and his battles with #17 and Cell. If there's still that much importance placed on Piccolo, no matter how meaningless it turned out to be, that's not shafting.

His shafting didn't come until the Boo arc.

No, I'd say the Buu arc is where his character was finally redeemed from the useless pile. Toriyama finally figured out an interesting way to use him that didn't involve building him up so ridiculously high only to give him absolutely nothing to do like in the previous two arcs. Piccolo stole the show in the Buu arc, the writing played to his strengths, and his character was all the better for it.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you.

If you go by that, then I guess every single character was shafted.

Um... well... yes! Nearly every character in DB was shafted. I didn't know that was ever a point of contention. Toriyama treats most of his characters horribly. Just ask Oolong, Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Videl, and many others who started out the series with interesting things to do and interesting character traits, only to end up doing nothing but standing around in the background. At least Piccolo was finally given a chance to redeem himself from that role, even if it didn't come until near the end of the series, at a point in the series where 2/3rds of the cast were doing nothing but standing around in the background.[/quote]

Do the Earthlings make up the entire cast though? No. I'm talking about permanent shafting. Yes, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Videl, etc., were shafted. But not Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo. All characters who had played parts that were important to the story at the time and perhaps sat at the sidelines at certain points, but were nonetheless integral. When I look at the Cell arc, I don't see Piccolo being shafted. When I look at the Boo arc, I do, since his part in the story isn't as important as the Saiyans who actually do the fighting, but even so, he suits his role and isn't relegated to completely useless like the Earthlings.