Krillin's PL was upped to 13,000 exactly according to the daizenshuu. I don't think 10x gravity would have THAT much of an effect on Tenshinhan since he already had a PL of 1,830 when he got there, which was already 630 over the average Saiyan's PL (and as we all know, Saiyans live in 10g). That's why, since he was there for so long, I think his PL upped to just a bit under 13,000 (12,000-13,000). I know 1g and 10g is a huge diffm but note that Vegeta constantly trained under 300g and Goku 1g, but Goku was always stronger.I like that scenario -- although didn't Krillin's power level only increase by ten times or so when his "hidden power" was released on Namek? Tenshinhan might have actually been able to multiply his own power level by that factor during his months of training with Kaio-sama in 10x Earth gravity.
Human power levels.
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SonGohan-san
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That's a good argument, Dayspring. However, I'm going to side with whoever is arguing against Kuririn being stronger which is apparently just Cadwell (I think?). The gravity issue is important, but remember that Tenshinhan wasn't horribly out Goku's league by the end of DB. And though they never fought head to head in the tournament, Tenshinhan just seemed stronger than Kuririn (I know this is just by observation, but he lasted a lot longer against Goku than Kuririn did against Piccolo, who was near identical to (if not slightly weaker) than Goku. I mean, Goku actually had to take off his weighted clothes against Ten, whereas Piccolo just...well he just didn't have to AT all against Kuririn).
When Tenshinhan died, his power level was stronger than Goku's was when he died from Radditz, but I don't think this disproves the idea of him being able to surpass the 13,000 barrier, unless Kaiou doesn't teach him the same techniques as Goku. This makes me wonder whether Tenshinhan and Yamucha actually learn Kaiou-ken. Anyways, him being stronger at death to me doesn't seem to imply that he's on more of a plateau than Goku. I think its reasonable to assume that Tenshinhan was able to get past 20,000 in the same amount of time that Goku managed to perfect Kaiou-ken (which put him around 25,000 or more at X 4, I think). At any rate, the 13,000 mark doesn't seem out of Tenshinhan's range regardless of power or gravity (just b/c he was stronger than Goku was at his death doesn't mean he couldn't benefit from training in it.
God this post is ugly and incoherent, but I'm going to hit "submit"
anyways.
Just wanted to add another example, which is Piccolo (even if he's not human). Are we not able to assume that Piccolo benefited greatly from his training due to the high gravity (despite him being over a certain PL when he died)? He had to have benefited fairly well considering that he fused with Nail to reach an absurd PL of near one million. Incidentally, that is the most absurd (how to justify) power up in the whole series aside from perhaps when he fuses with Kami. Works for you if you're Piccolo fan, which I am.
When Tenshinhan died, his power level was stronger than Goku's was when he died from Radditz, but I don't think this disproves the idea of him being able to surpass the 13,000 barrier, unless Kaiou doesn't teach him the same techniques as Goku. This makes me wonder whether Tenshinhan and Yamucha actually learn Kaiou-ken. Anyways, him being stronger at death to me doesn't seem to imply that he's on more of a plateau than Goku. I think its reasonable to assume that Tenshinhan was able to get past 20,000 in the same amount of time that Goku managed to perfect Kaiou-ken (which put him around 25,000 or more at X 4, I think). At any rate, the 13,000 mark doesn't seem out of Tenshinhan's range regardless of power or gravity (just b/c he was stronger than Goku was at his death doesn't mean he couldn't benefit from training in it.
God this post is ugly and incoherent, but I'm going to hit "submit"
anyways.
Just wanted to add another example, which is Piccolo (even if he's not human). Are we not able to assume that Piccolo benefited greatly from his training due to the high gravity (despite him being over a certain PL when he died)? He had to have benefited fairly well considering that he fused with Nail to reach an absurd PL of near one million. Incidentally, that is the most absurd (how to justify) power up in the whole series aside from perhaps when he fuses with Kami. Works for you if you're Piccolo fan, which I am.
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Zackarotto
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Ah, yes, Kaiou-ken. I forgot about that... why weren't they thought it? It makes no sense. They were better than Goku when he got there, or something, yet they weren't tought any of the moves. Any of them could greatly improve in fights if Kaiou-ken was at their disposal, and I'm sure that the stronger ones there could have pulled off a Genki Dama. Strange...
Seriously, guys. Use the quote tags! It's much easier to read, and it's not that much harder.
Seriously, guys. Use the quote tags! It's much easier to read, and it's not that much harder.
Last edited by Zackarotto on Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SonGohan-san: earlier in the thread I said that I thought Tenshinhan was stronger than Krillin up to when Krillin had his PL raised by Saichoru.
I didn't consider the kaioken because, well, he never used it.
I didn't consider the kaioken because, well, he never used it.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
1. Unless it was in the manga, any battle power including ones from the world guide are not canon. The only thing that is canon is whats derived from Toriyama and the World Guide is done by Bird Studios, therefore, that battle power of Kuririn is fictictious. They even have Piccolo at 800,000 while Freeza is at 1 million in his second form, yet, Piccolo was beating his second form.
2. Kuririn didn't just attack Ginyu in Goku's body off guard. He attacked him head on and got blows in. That means Ginyu in Goku's Body at the point < Kuririn.
3. Yamucha didn't say it to Kuririn's daughter. People always assume this and I don't know why. They need to read/watch the series/manga more carefully. He states to Kuririn's daughter that he's the strongest fighter in the world. Then when she's not paying any attention to him, to comfort himself, he murmurs to himself "Well, amongst humans anyway." Like I said before, this statement was never proven wrong throughout the whole Boo saga therefore, it holds validity. Come to think of it, there is nothing in the Boo saga that Tenshinhan does which could be used as evidence to support the whole "Ten > Kuririn" argument, while we do have a statement made by Toriyama, which in turn, had his character state, that Kuririn was the strongest guy amongst earthlings.
"Didn't Krillin stop training after the Cell Games? Are you implying that the gap between Krillin and Tenshinhan is -so- enormous that Krillin could sit in Kame House watching television for seven years and -still- be stronger than Tenshinhan? "
Its never stated, or implied, that Ten continued training either. And Kuririn trained for 2 months prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament with Artificial Human 18. Training with Artificial Human #18 > Anything Ten could do with Chaozu in the mountains. BUt again, all Ten says is that he'll never see his friends again, and doesn't indicate at training. My guess is the only training he'd do is to keep in shape since he was vastly inferior to the Saiyans and Piccolo at the point, making any harsh training a waste of time.
And please, tell me the evidence that suggests Ten > Kuririn in the BOO SAGA. We have something to prove Kuririn > Ten, yet nothing the otherway around.
2. Kuririn didn't just attack Ginyu in Goku's body off guard. He attacked him head on and got blows in. That means Ginyu in Goku's Body at the point < Kuririn.
3. Yamucha didn't say it to Kuririn's daughter. People always assume this and I don't know why. They need to read/watch the series/manga more carefully. He states to Kuririn's daughter that he's the strongest fighter in the world. Then when she's not paying any attention to him, to comfort himself, he murmurs to himself "Well, amongst humans anyway." Like I said before, this statement was never proven wrong throughout the whole Boo saga therefore, it holds validity. Come to think of it, there is nothing in the Boo saga that Tenshinhan does which could be used as evidence to support the whole "Ten > Kuririn" argument, while we do have a statement made by Toriyama, which in turn, had his character state, that Kuririn was the strongest guy amongst earthlings.
"Didn't Krillin stop training after the Cell Games? Are you implying that the gap between Krillin and Tenshinhan is -so- enormous that Krillin could sit in Kame House watching television for seven years and -still- be stronger than Tenshinhan? "
Its never stated, or implied, that Ten continued training either. And Kuririn trained for 2 months prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament with Artificial Human 18. Training with Artificial Human #18 > Anything Ten could do with Chaozu in the mountains. BUt again, all Ten says is that he'll never see his friends again, and doesn't indicate at training. My guess is the only training he'd do is to keep in shape since he was vastly inferior to the Saiyans and Piccolo at the point, making any harsh training a waste of time.
And please, tell me the evidence that suggests Ten > Kuririn in the BOO SAGA. We have something to prove Kuririn > Ten, yet nothing the otherway around.
It IS stated by Toriyama the Tenshinhan continued. He explains that Tenshinhan's relocating all the time, looking for better training locations, is the reason why Lunch never found him. Why would he continue looking for better training locations if he had no intention of training? Also, he didn't train WITH #18, they just trained at the same place: home.Its never stated, or implied, that Ten continued training either. And Kuririn trained for 2 months prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament with Artificial Human 18.
Not in the manga.Kuririn didn't just attack Ginyu in Goku's body off guard. He attacked him head on and got blows in. That means Ginyu in Goku's Body at the point < Kuririn.
Fair enough. But then now you have to assume that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan since, in the manga, he destroyed all the remaining saibamen except for one with one shot.Unless it was in the manga, any battle power including ones from the world guide are not canon. The only thing that is canon is whats derived from Toriyama and the World Guide is done by Bird Studios, therefore, that battle power of Kuririn is fictictious
They gave Freeza's 4th form PL only. His second form PL is given in the manga, and the daizenshuu gives Piccolo at 1,000,000 as well.They even have Piccolo at 800,000 while Freeza is at 1 million in his second form, yet, Piccolo was beating his second form.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
"It IS stated by Toriyama the Tenshinhan continued. He explains that Tenshinhan's relocating all the time, looking for better training locations, is the reason why Lunch never found him. Why would he continue looking for better training locations if he had no intention of training? Also, he didn't train WITH #18, they just trained at the same place: home. "
No its not. Go check your manga this instant. All he states to his friends is that they will never see him again. They NEVER state that he's going to continue training after the Cell Games. All he says is he's going to get Chaozu, they are headed off to the mountains, and they will probably never see him again.
And Kuririn did train WITH 18, 1 or 2 months prior to the Tournament.
"Not in the manga. "
Uhh, what? Kuririn does attack Ginyu in Goku's body and does damage. He then tells Gohan that they can easily take him since he can do damage to him. I think you need to check your manga over.
"Fair enough. But then now you have to assume that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan since, in the manga, he destroyed all the remaining saibamen except for one with one shot. "
Not really, for many reasons. 1. Ten's max battle power isn't given during the Saibaman fight in the manga. 2. Ten was following the rules and fighting them 1 on 1. Kuririn disregarded the rules and decided to just take 3 of em out. I'm sure Ten could do the same thing.
EDIT: How do I do the quote stuff the way you did? Like quote different pieces and such? Thanks in advance.
No its not. Go check your manga this instant. All he states to his friends is that they will never see him again. They NEVER state that he's going to continue training after the Cell Games. All he says is he's going to get Chaozu, they are headed off to the mountains, and they will probably never see him again.
And Kuririn did train WITH 18, 1 or 2 months prior to the Tournament.
"Not in the manga. "
Uhh, what? Kuririn does attack Ginyu in Goku's body and does damage. He then tells Gohan that they can easily take him since he can do damage to him. I think you need to check your manga over.
"Fair enough. But then now you have to assume that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan since, in the manga, he destroyed all the remaining saibamen except for one with one shot. "
Not really, for many reasons. 1. Ten's max battle power isn't given during the Saibaman fight in the manga. 2. Ten was following the rules and fighting them 1 on 1. Kuririn disregarded the rules and decided to just take 3 of em out. I'm sure Ten could do the same thing.
EDIT: How do I do the quote stuff the way you did? Like quote different pieces and such? Thanks in advance.
Look above where you type. There's a bold button, italic, underline and quote, etc. Though I'm not sure how people quote so that it says "Dayspring wrote:" instead of just "quote".
You seem to be really sure about the Krillin vs Ginyu so I'll go check it out later. All I remember offense-wise is Krillin double fisting him into the roof of the ship.
I know Krillin and #18 trained for those 2 months, but I don't remember them training with each other. Since it's my least favorite saga I'll go over that later too since I might be wrong.
As for Tenshinhan, it's said in the daizenshuu under a section that Toriyama himself explains what happened to Lunch. (Other things in that section were what happened to Pilaf+co, the diff +Mirai and Chibi Trunks, etc).
Although I agree with you concerning the saibamen and Tenshinhan not going all out, I feel he would have blasted his saibaman in one shot like Piccolo did instead of wasting all that energy, so I stand by my argument. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You seem to be really sure about the Krillin vs Ginyu so I'll go check it out later. All I remember offense-wise is Krillin double fisting him into the roof of the ship.
I know Krillin and #18 trained for those 2 months, but I don't remember them training with each other. Since it's my least favorite saga I'll go over that later too since I might be wrong.
As for Tenshinhan, it's said in the daizenshuu under a section that Toriyama himself explains what happened to Lunch. (Other things in that section were what happened to Pilaf+co, the diff +Mirai and Chibi Trunks, etc).
Although I agree with you concerning the saibamen and Tenshinhan not going all out, I feel he would have blasted his saibaman in one shot like Piccolo did instead of wasting all that energy, so I stand by my argument. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
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SonGohan-san
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Yeah, I know. I was just taking your agrument a step further by taking the position that by the time Tenshinhan had been wished back to life, he was stronger than Kuririn and remained that way throughout the entire series, which I thought condradicted your beliefs somewhat.Dayspring wrote:SonGohan-san: earlier in the thread I said that I thought Tenshinhan was stronger than Krillin up to when Krillin had his PL raised by Saichoru.
Anyways, that above post I made was written in a very ugly way and anything but clear, but it was quite early in the morning when I made it.
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James R. Cadwell
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Being able to hit someone doesn't mean that you're stronger than him. It just means that the difference in speed and skill is negligible.Gohan-kun wrote:2. Kuririn didn't just attack Ginyu in Goku's body off guard. He attacked him head on and got blows in. That means Ginyu in Goku's Body at the point < Kuririn.
Which is evidence that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan why...? Yamucha hadn't seen Tenshinhan in years -- you'll need to demonstrate why Yamucha is qualified to evaluate their comparative strength.Gohan-kun wrote:3. Yamucha didn't say it to Kuririn's daughter. People always assume this and I don't know why. They need to read/watch the series/manga more carefully. He states to Kuririn's daughter that he's the strongest fighter in the world. Then when she's not paying any attention to him, to comfort himself, he murmurs to himself "Well, amongst humans anyway."
Wrong. Dialogue ! = evidence. Dialogue is a subjective interpretation of events and is usually introspective. Unless dialogue concerns a -direct- observation and isn't impeachable by contradictory evidence, it's the -weakest- form of information to use when analyzing a fictional universe.Gohan-kun wrote:Like I said before, this statement was never proven wrong throughout the whole Boo saga therefore, it holds validity.
Tenshinhan deflects one of Buu's energy blasts using the "Kikoho" technique, if I recall correctly. Besides, there's no direct evidence that would lead to the conclusion that Krillin is stronger, either -- and he definitely wasn't in the Cell Saga, so it's counter-intuitive to assume that he's stronger by the time Majin Buu arrived.Gohan-kun wrote:Come to think of it, there is nothing in the Boo saga that Tenshinhan does which could be used as evidence to support the whole "Ten > Kuririn" argument...
Which means what? Toriyama could have Piccolo say that everyone is wrong and Korin is really the most powerful warrior in the universe -- it would still just be a statement made by a character and not empirical evidence.Gohan-kun wrote:while we do have a statement made by Toriyama, which in turn, had his character state, that Kuririn was the strongest guy amongst earthlings.
-You- are not Akira Toriyama, so you aren't qualified to determine what his reasoning was when he wrote Yamucha's lines about Krillin being the most powerful human warrior. There are several possible interpretations and for all -you- know, the correct one is that Toriyama simply intended for Yamucha to -politely- compliment Krillin and then wistfully reflect on the fact that the Saiya-jin have become so much more powerful than the humans -- an interpretation perfectly consistant with Yamucha's character.
One possible interpretation:
Yamucha: Blah-blah-blah, Krillin's the strongest in the world. (a nice compliment)
Yamucha: Well, at least among humans. (thinking of how the Saiya-jin have long since exceeded everyone in power)
Your interpretation, which you are fallaciously assuming is correct since you can apparently look directly into Toriyama's mind.
Yamucha: Blah-blah-blah, Krillin's the strongest in the world. (a statement of absolute fact!)
Yamucha: Well, at least among humans. (Yamucha correcting his statement of absolute fact!)
So Tenshinhan (who has been wandering the world and training constantly ever since we first met the character in Dragon Ball) was wandering the world and -not- training anymore because...? What was he doing out in the wilderness?Gohan-kun wrote:Its never stated, or implied, that Ten continued training either.
So two months of training with someone who completely outclasses you in every regard is superior to potentially seven -years- of training on your own? So if you practiced martial arts with an elephant for two months, you'd be stronger than someone who practiced martial arts on their own or with a friend for seven years?Gohan-kun wrote:And Kuririn trained for 2 months prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament with Artificial Human 18. Training with Artificial Human #18 > Anything Ten could do with Chaozu in the mountains.
Tenshinhan doesn't train because he wants to be the strongest warrior in the universe (unlike Vegeta) -- he trains because he's a consummate warrior who's living the lifestyle of a consummate warrior. I lift weights fairly regularly, despite the fact that I'll never be as strong as Arnold Schwarzengger was during his prime -- using -your- logic, I should just give up immediately because I can't be the best.Gohan-kun wrote:BUt again, all Ten says is that he'll never see his friends again, and doesn't indicate at training. My guess is the only training he'd do is to keep in shape since he was vastly inferior to the Saiyans and Piccolo at the point, making any harsh training a waste of time.
No, we don't have anything that proves Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan -- what we have is a few off-handed remarks from Yamucha, who isn't even qualified to compare Krillin and Tenshinhan's power levels since he hasn't seen the latter in seven years.Gohan-kun wrote:And please, tell me the evidence that suggests Ten > Kuririn in the BOO SAGA. We have something to prove Kuririn > Ten, yet nothing the otherway around.
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SonGohan-san
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Well I'll ask this question even though I'm pretty sure of the answer.
I've only seen the subtitles. Can we confirm the subtitles where Yamucha says "Kuririn is the strongst amongst us humans" or whatever is correct or accurate?
Speaking of Funimation getting things right, I can remember someone (a friend, actually, though it was some time ago) saying that they edited out the stuff w/ Gohan in the first episode b/c it was filler and they were actually making it closer to the original manga. I thought that was an odd thing to say.
I've only seen the subtitles. Can we confirm the subtitles where Yamucha says "Kuririn is the strongst amongst us humans" or whatever is correct or accurate?
Speaking of Funimation getting things right, I can remember someone (a friend, actually, though it was some time ago) saying that they edited out the stuff w/ Gohan in the first episode b/c it was filler and they were actually making it closer to the original manga. I thought that was an odd thing to say.
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Jerseymilk
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That's ridiculous! Please! They just edited it out to save time and because they thought that their target audience-young boys, wouldn't be interested in watching a half hourof a crying Gohan wandering around in the woods and being rescued by Goku in a rushing river when they could watch a half hour of people punching, kicking, and blasting one another sooner. Your friend was giving Funi waaaay too much credit!SonGohan-san wrote:Well I'll ask this question even though I'm pretty sure of the answer.
I've only seen the subtitles. Can we confirm the subtitles where Yamucha says "Kuririn is the strongst amongst us humans" or whatever is correct or accurate?
Speaking of Funimation getting things right, I can remember someone (a friend, actually, though it was some time ago) saying that they edited out the stuff w/ Gohan in the first episode b/c it was filler and they were actually making it closer to the original manga. I thought that was an odd thing to say.
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TripleRach
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Yes, it is indeed accurate. Well, the meaning of the sentence, at least. I don't agree that Yamucha's observation is accurate, but I really want to stay out of another Tenshinhan vs Kuririn argument...SonGohan-san wrote:I've only seen the subtitles. Can we confirm the subtitles where Yamucha says "Kuririn is the strongst amongst us humans" or whatever is correct or accurate?
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SonGohan-san
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No, he knew FUNi didn't purposely do it. I was in a rush, so I didn't clarify that he was really just being a dick and joshing me around b/c I didn't read the mangas. I'm sure he knows FUNi made the series completely different than Toriyama intended.
Last edited by SonGohan-san on Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jerseymilk
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Super Sonic
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They're both great fighters, Krillin and Tien. Yamcha was okay until Freeza showed up on Earth and they started to make him a little wuss. I also think that they both could have stopped the villains easier if they had thought about it. For example, Krillin could have destroyed Freeza after blinding him on Namek. While he was blinded he should have made another Destructo Disc and decapitated Freeza or slice him in two. As for Tien, while Cell was fighting #16, he should have snuck up behind #17 and fired that Neo Ki Ko Ho right at him. At that point blank range, I doubt even #17 could have survived. No 17, no Perfect Cell.
"Being able to hit someone doesn't mean that you're stronger than him. It just means that the difference in speed and skill is negligible. "
Being able to damage to someone while they are ON-GUARD, as in, fully aware of you attacking them, means the other is greater in the Z world at least. It never has to do with speed or skill. Name another time someone weak has done damage to someone stronger than them when they are FULLY aware of it, and not caught off guard. I gurantee you, you can't. It never happens in the Z world.
"Which is evidence that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan why...? Yamucha hadn't seen Tenshinhan in years -- you'll need to demonstrate why Yamucha is qualified to evaluate their comparative strength."
Its stated. We don't know what fictional characters are doing during the time we don't see them. How do you know Yamucha didn't run into Ten prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament?
"Wrong. Dialogue ! = evidence. Dialogue is a subjective interpretation of events and is usually introspective. Unless dialogue concerns a -direct- observation and isn't impeachable by contradictory evidence, it's the -weakest- form of information to use when analyzing a fictional universe. "
Uhh no. You're not thinking in the sense of the Dragonball world. Every single statement made in Dragonball which is never again contradicted is valid. We don't have to witness it for it to be valid. Going by your logic, a crapload of things would be left untrue going by your logic.
1.SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Boo saga) isn't weaker than Vegeta even though its stated a million times Gohan is now the weakest of the two because of not training. There's no evidence shown to us that Gohan is actually weaker than Vegeta and Goku.
2. Goku and Vegeta can't beat Dabura even though its stated a million times they can. We never see them fight so I guess Vegeta and Goku are liars.
3. Freeza's battle power in his second form isn't 1 million, although its stated it is. There was no scouter to prove it so I guess he lies too.
4. Its stated by Goku (and Vegeta agrees) that the both of them cannot beat Super Boo 1, UNLESS they fuse. They are liars too and its not true.
I could go on and on. My point is: if its stated, and its never again contradicted, its valid. Thats how the DB universe works. Otherwise I can easily say that Trunks also lied when he said that the Artificial Humans of his time are weaker than the ones of ours, since we don't see any evidence of this.
"Tenshinhan deflects one of Buu's energy blasts using the "Kikoho" technique, if I recall correctly. Besides, there's no direct evidence that would lead to the conclusion that Krillin is stronger, either -- and he definitely wasn't in the Cell Saga, so it's counter-intuitive to assume that he's stronger by the time Majin Buu arrived. "
Yes, and Vegeta in SSJ form deflects kikoha blast from Boo. Whats your point? Not only that but the power of the Kikoho isn't derived from the users power, rather it multiplies its power and uses the users lifeforce. If it was Ten's own power, that would mean Ten > Artificial Human 16 +Piccolo +#17+#18 etc.
One question: how do we know Kuririn < Ten in the Cell saga?
"Which means what? Toriyama could have Piccolo say that everyone is wrong and Korin is really the most powerful warrior in the universe -- it would still just be a statement made by a character and not empirical evidence."
Which means unless the statement is contradicted, it holds validity. I already explained this above. If Toriyama had Piccolo say the above, but was later proven wrong, then what Piccolo stated is obviously false. FOr example, Goku states that Dabura and Cell have equal strength. Later on, after seeing Dabura fight Gohan, he says Dabura is a lot stronger than he thought. The statement of "Dabura and Cell are equal" was later contradicted by the statement "Dabura is a lot stronger than I thought" making Dabura > Cell. However, Yamucha's statement is NEVER contradicted so it holds validity. Otherwise, those four examples I used above don't hold any truth.
"So Tenshinhan (who has been wandering the world and training constantly ever since we first met the character in Dragon Ball) was wandering the world and -not- training anymore because...? What was he doing out in the wilderness?"
He's haulted his training once before. Remember? He refuses to train in the Room of Spirit and Time, although his strength could be upped considerably. And this is BEFORE Goku and Gohan refuse to go in again, meaning there were two extra slots he could have taken, but refuses. Like I said before, if Ten did any training, it'd only be training to stay in shape. He was already severely outclassed by the Saiyans so training in order to surpass them would be ludacris.
"So two months of training with someone who completely outclasses you in every regard is superior to potentially seven -years- of training on your own? So if you practiced martial arts with an elephant for two months, you'd be stronger than someone who practiced martial arts on their own or with a friend for seven years?"
Heh, real life examples with the Dragonball World. When will people realize they don't compare. Anyway, your example is pretty ridiculous as we know in Dragonball, the more serious and hard the training is, the more powerful one becomes. A better example, on my part, would be one who trains with a man with a 4th degree blackbelt, compared to one who is a brown belt, but trains with a white belt (Tenshinhan being the brown belt and Chaozu being the white belt). But like I said, real life examples and DB world=no no. #18 outclasses Tenshinhan in everyway and she trained with Kuririn. Its never stated Tenshinhan trained during the seven years but its a FACT that Kuririn trained with 18.
Like I said, its stated Kuririn > Ten. nothing ever contradicts this statement throughout the whole Boo saga and there is absoloutely NOTHING which suggest Ten > Kuririn during the Boo arc.
Dayspring, thanks for the help on the technicalties of quoting hehe. I'll use it in my next post, or try to at least.
Hmm, the Daizenshuu seems to be refering to Ten prior to all the SSJ stuff as it wasn't around then. Since James tends to believe statement don't hold validity, that doesn't hold validity since we don't always see Ten training throughout all of DB and wondering and the like. Basically, he's saying anything stated that we don't actually see isn't factual, which is a bulk majority of Dragonball.
The way I see it is that people don't want to accept that someone as goofy as Kuririn is the strongest human.
Being able to damage to someone while they are ON-GUARD, as in, fully aware of you attacking them, means the other is greater in the Z world at least. It never has to do with speed or skill. Name another time someone weak has done damage to someone stronger than them when they are FULLY aware of it, and not caught off guard. I gurantee you, you can't. It never happens in the Z world.
"Which is evidence that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan why...? Yamucha hadn't seen Tenshinhan in years -- you'll need to demonstrate why Yamucha is qualified to evaluate their comparative strength."
Its stated. We don't know what fictional characters are doing during the time we don't see them. How do you know Yamucha didn't run into Ten prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament?
"Wrong. Dialogue ! = evidence. Dialogue is a subjective interpretation of events and is usually introspective. Unless dialogue concerns a -direct- observation and isn't impeachable by contradictory evidence, it's the -weakest- form of information to use when analyzing a fictional universe. "
Uhh no. You're not thinking in the sense of the Dragonball world. Every single statement made in Dragonball which is never again contradicted is valid. We don't have to witness it for it to be valid. Going by your logic, a crapload of things would be left untrue going by your logic.
1.SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Boo saga) isn't weaker than Vegeta even though its stated a million times Gohan is now the weakest of the two because of not training. There's no evidence shown to us that Gohan is actually weaker than Vegeta and Goku.
2. Goku and Vegeta can't beat Dabura even though its stated a million times they can. We never see them fight so I guess Vegeta and Goku are liars.
3. Freeza's battle power in his second form isn't 1 million, although its stated it is. There was no scouter to prove it so I guess he lies too.
4. Its stated by Goku (and Vegeta agrees) that the both of them cannot beat Super Boo 1, UNLESS they fuse. They are liars too and its not true.
I could go on and on. My point is: if its stated, and its never again contradicted, its valid. Thats how the DB universe works. Otherwise I can easily say that Trunks also lied when he said that the Artificial Humans of his time are weaker than the ones of ours, since we don't see any evidence of this.
"Tenshinhan deflects one of Buu's energy blasts using the "Kikoho" technique, if I recall correctly. Besides, there's no direct evidence that would lead to the conclusion that Krillin is stronger, either -- and he definitely wasn't in the Cell Saga, so it's counter-intuitive to assume that he's stronger by the time Majin Buu arrived. "
Yes, and Vegeta in SSJ form deflects kikoha blast from Boo. Whats your point? Not only that but the power of the Kikoho isn't derived from the users power, rather it multiplies its power and uses the users lifeforce. If it was Ten's own power, that would mean Ten > Artificial Human 16 +Piccolo +#17+#18 etc.
One question: how do we know Kuririn < Ten in the Cell saga?
"Which means what? Toriyama could have Piccolo say that everyone is wrong and Korin is really the most powerful warrior in the universe -- it would still just be a statement made by a character and not empirical evidence."
Which means unless the statement is contradicted, it holds validity. I already explained this above. If Toriyama had Piccolo say the above, but was later proven wrong, then what Piccolo stated is obviously false. FOr example, Goku states that Dabura and Cell have equal strength. Later on, after seeing Dabura fight Gohan, he says Dabura is a lot stronger than he thought. The statement of "Dabura and Cell are equal" was later contradicted by the statement "Dabura is a lot stronger than I thought" making Dabura > Cell. However, Yamucha's statement is NEVER contradicted so it holds validity. Otherwise, those four examples I used above don't hold any truth.
"So Tenshinhan (who has been wandering the world and training constantly ever since we first met the character in Dragon Ball) was wandering the world and -not- training anymore because...? What was he doing out in the wilderness?"
He's haulted his training once before. Remember? He refuses to train in the Room of Spirit and Time, although his strength could be upped considerably. And this is BEFORE Goku and Gohan refuse to go in again, meaning there were two extra slots he could have taken, but refuses. Like I said before, if Ten did any training, it'd only be training to stay in shape. He was already severely outclassed by the Saiyans so training in order to surpass them would be ludacris.
"So two months of training with someone who completely outclasses you in every regard is superior to potentially seven -years- of training on your own? So if you practiced martial arts with an elephant for two months, you'd be stronger than someone who practiced martial arts on their own or with a friend for seven years?"
Heh, real life examples with the Dragonball World. When will people realize they don't compare. Anyway, your example is pretty ridiculous as we know in Dragonball, the more serious and hard the training is, the more powerful one becomes. A better example, on my part, would be one who trains with a man with a 4th degree blackbelt, compared to one who is a brown belt, but trains with a white belt (Tenshinhan being the brown belt and Chaozu being the white belt). But like I said, real life examples and DB world=no no. #18 outclasses Tenshinhan in everyway and she trained with Kuririn. Its never stated Tenshinhan trained during the seven years but its a FACT that Kuririn trained with 18.
Like I said, its stated Kuririn > Ten. nothing ever contradicts this statement throughout the whole Boo saga and there is absoloutely NOTHING which suggest Ten > Kuririn during the Boo arc.
Dayspring, thanks for the help on the technicalties of quoting hehe. I'll use it in my next post, or try to at least.
Hmm, the Daizenshuu seems to be refering to Ten prior to all the SSJ stuff as it wasn't around then. Since James tends to believe statement don't hold validity, that doesn't hold validity since we don't always see Ten training throughout all of DB and wondering and the like. Basically, he's saying anything stated that we don't actually see isn't factual, which is a bulk majority of Dragonball.
The way I see it is that people don't want to accept that someone as goofy as Kuririn is the strongest human.
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Zackarotto
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Gohan-Kun, it's not just Kuririn's looks that make us support Tenshinhan as the strongest human. Of course, it's not just Tenshinhan's looks that make us believe he's the strongest human.
Anyway, Kuririn isn't willing to train as hard with 18 as Tenshinhan is willing to train by himself. Kuririn might be going in for a break after 3 minutes of getting his ass kicked to grab a soda and watch some TV, but Tenshinhan might be lifting Icebergs (or something) for hours without wanting to travel _____ miles to get to a nice place to relax for a break. A partner means little against all the other factors.
Anyway, Kuririn isn't willing to train as hard with 18 as Tenshinhan is willing to train by himself. Kuririn might be going in for a break after 3 minutes of getting his ass kicked to grab a soda and watch some TV, but Tenshinhan might be lifting Icebergs (or something) for hours without wanting to travel _____ miles to get to a nice place to relax for a break. A partner means little against all the other factors.
The above is pure speculation. Use factual info please. Its a fact Kuririn trained with 18 for two months. Its not a fact that Ten trained in between the Boo and Cell saga. Again, WHAT EVIDENCE SUGGESTS TEN > KURIRIN IN THE BOO SAGA? No assumptions don't count. I don't even know how you derived at the above...Zackarotto wrote:Gohan-Kun, it's not just Kuririn's looks that make us support Tenshinhan as the strongest human. Of course, it's not just Tenshinhan's looks that make us believe he's the strongest human.
Anyway, Kuririn isn't willing to train as hard with 18 as Tenshinhan is willing to train by himself. Kuririn might be going in for a break after 3 minutes of getting his ass kicked to grab a soda and watch some TV, but Tenshinhan might be lifting Icebergs (or something) for hours without wanting to travel _____ miles to get to a nice place to relax for a break. A partner means little against all the other factors.
What I'm eagerly awaiting is James response. If he disregards things stated, but disregards them because we don't actually see it or any evidence to show it, that means the bulk of dragonball is speculation.