Daizenshuu 7, Goku's SSJ PL

[Fox666]

Well, surely not. The manga is quite clear that Vegeta and the others can't change what battle power the Scouter will give at all. Here are some examples:

Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Jheese: “This is unexpected. Those little squirts' battle power surpassed 10,000."
Butta: “At any rate, races that can alter their battle power without transforming are rare.”

Thinking of an analogy, it would be like this: the Ki is like waves, the battle power or strength is the lenght of the wave, while the stamina is the frequency. Someone with a high battle powers will display frequent waves of a great lenght, while someone with a low battle power will have frequent waves of low lenght. However if any of them is exausted his waves will not be very frequent.

A Scouter only tell the lenght of the Ki wave, so no matter what is your condition it will tell how strong you are. However someone who can sense the Ki estimate the size of the Ki based on both lenght and frequency, thus he will feel a Ki of different size also depending on your stamina.

Additionally, when Vegeta and Nappa are supressing their power, they only display a different frequency of wave, while the Earthlings who can control their Ki change the lenght of the Ki. Thus the Scouter would only tell the difference in the second case, while someone who can sense the Ki would feel both differently.

[Bussani]

That's a neat analogy, but I still don't know... If Goku and Piccolo's scouter rating could change just from removing some weights, then these values can't be completely inflexible.

[Kaboom]

I'd agree with the simpler explanation: Battle Power can fluctuate with different conditions and circumstances, but the ability to actually control your power and alter it so drastically on purpose is extremely rare.

[Fox666]

That's a neat analogy, but I still don't know... If Goku and Piccolo's scouter rating could change just from removing some weights, then these values can't be completely inflexible.

I don't know either. I am not sure of anything on this subject. When it comes to Ki, it is a result of your physical and mental condition, so I guess weights would affect your Ki.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Even if the transformation miraculously restored Goku's power and stamina, it's not going to make his injuries go away. His battered and beaten body would probably still hold him back somewhat. It's a reasonable explanation, if one is really needed, for how Freeza could put up such an even fight.

My theory is just that the Super Saiyan transformation kind of allowed him to overcome the injuries that he'd sustained beforehand, since, in comparison to before the transformation when he was experiencing pain when he laughed, he was able to move comfortably and knock around 50% Freeza. I guess you could compare it to when you accidentally cut your ankle during exercise, but because of the adrenaline coursing through your body, you only notice it and perhaps only feel the pain when you realize that it's there and you've calmed down.

However, I'm not saying that, whenever a base Saiyan is injured, they can just go SSj and all their injuries will go away. I think it was special for Goku in that it was his first time, and he was all enraged, so that temporary, adrenaline-pumped battle state kind of distracted him from his wounds. And somehow, he was still able to draw from that when he reverted back to normal after quitting his battle with Freeza.

[Hitiro]

Well, surely not. The manga is quite clear that Vegeta and the others can't change what battle power the Scouter will give at all. Here are some examples:

Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Jheese: “This is unexpected. Those little squirts' battle power surpassed 10,000."
Butta: “At any rate, races that can alter their battle power without transforming are rare.”

Thinking of an analogy, it would be like this: the Ki is like waves, the battle power or strength is the lenght of the wave, while the stamina is the frequency. Someone with a high battle powers will display frequent waves of a great lenght, while someone with a low battle power will have frequent waves of low lenght. However if any of them is exausted his waves will not be very frequent.

A Scouter only tell the lenght of the Ki wave, so no matter what is your condition it will tell how strong you are. However someone who can sense the Ki estimate the size of the Ki based on both lenght and frequency, thus he will feel a Ki of different size also depending on your stamina.

Additionally, when Vegeta and Nappa are supressing their power, they only display a different frequency of wave, while the Earthlings who can control their Ki change the lenght of the Ki. Thus the Scouter would only tell the difference in the second case, while someone who can sense the Ki would feel both differently.

But Vegeta never says he couldn't increase the amount of power he uses, if you go back to the start of the fight with Nappa vs. the Z-Fighters just before the battle started Nappa increased his power, Piccolo explains that he couldn't believe Nappa had that much power. When Vegeta fought against Goku he also increased his power and Goku made note that he was much stronger than he thought. Like I said the difference between the Z-Fighters and all the other characters is the Z-Fighters can suppress how much energy they give off which will make them seem weaker than they are. If you go to the battle with Goku vs. Ginyu then Jeice mentions numerous times "Captain Ginyu's maximum" which has always suggested to me that characters have a resting powerlevel and a maximum powerlevel much like your heart has a resting rate and a rate for when your doing physical exercise.

Also I wouldn't go so far as to say everyone has a fingerprint on their powerlevel, the reason I say this is because a few times through the manga the characters would read a powerlevel and be unsure who it was. In the early instances where Vegeta arrived on Namek and he killed Cui, Dodoria assumes that it was Vegeta who killed Cui but he wasn't sure because Vegeta's battle power had increased yet if there was fingerprint on their battle powers then he would clearly know it was Vegeta.

[Bussani]

I mentioned that it could have been like adrenaline as well, although as Hitiro pointed out, it's not necessary if you're willing to take the Daizenshuu number as Goku's max rather than what he actually had at the time. But anyway, ki is a mental/spiritual power, and mental focus, emotions, willpower, etc, are not tangible quantities that are irrecoverable when lost, so even if someone thinks they've lost ki--and even if that actually appears be the case--some sort of trigger might just cause that person's power to return. It's not what you'd call an exact science.

But Vegeta never says he couldn't increase the amount of power he uses, if you go back to the start of the fight with Nappa vs. the Z-Fighters just before the battle started Nappa increased his power, Piccolo explains that he couldn't believe Nappa had that much power. When Vegeta fought against Goku he also increased his power and Goku made note that he was much stronger than he thought.

Some people don't think that Nappa or Vegeta's actual battle powers changed in either of those cases. It could be that the amount of energy was the same, but feeling it all "wake up" and start blazing is different--something only people with actual ki sensing abilities would be able to feel.

If you go to the battle with Goku vs. Ginyu then Jeice mentions numerous times "Captain Ginyu's maximum" which has always suggested to me that characters have a resting powerlevel and a maximum powerlevel much like your heart has a resting rate and a rate for when your doing physical exercise.

Ginyu's actually said to be the type of human(oid) that can control his battle power, though, so he's an exception.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P5.2
Ginyu: “If you’ve gotten confident from that brief exchange just now, I’ll soon take you down a notch…The truth is that I am also the type of human that can freely alter their battle power…!”

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think that Super Saiyan Goku's battle power on Namek was 150 million, but perhaps it would be a good argument to make that he couldn't put forth his full strength because of the previous injuries he'd sustained in base form. Maybe you could compare it to when he fought #19. He was clearly much stronger than #19, and was giving it all he got, but because of the virus, it was playing against his strength and preventing him from destroying #19 instantly.

But Freeza was disadvantaged too, moreso than Goku. The strain of bulking up and stretching his ki to its fullest went beyond the threshold of how much ki he could contain, and his ki began steadily dropping. Basically what Goku said:

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Perhaps Freeza was injured beforehand, too. He could've recieved a lot of damage from the Genki-Dama.

[Hitiro]

I mentioned that it could have been like adrenaline as well, although as Hitiro pointed out, it's not necessary if you're willing to take the Daizenshuu number as Goku's max rather than what he actually had at the time. But anyway, ki is a mental/spiritual power, and mental focus, emotions, willpower, etc, are not tangible quantities that are irrecoverable when lost, so even if someone thinks they've lost ki--and even if that actually appears be the case--some sort of trigger might just cause that person's power to return. It's not what you'd call an exact science.

But Vegeta never says he couldn't increase the amount of power he uses, if you go back to the start of the fight with Nappa vs. the Z-Fighters just before the battle started Nappa increased his power, Piccolo explains that he couldn't believe Nappa had that much power. When Vegeta fought against Goku he also increased his power and Goku made note that he was much stronger than he thought.

Some people don't think that Nappa or Vegeta's actual battle powers changed in either of those cases. It could be that the amount of energy was the same, but feeling it all "wake up" and start blazing is different--something only people with actual ki sensing abilities would be able to feel.

If you go to the battle with Goku vs. Ginyu then Jeice mentions numerous times "Captain Ginyu's maximum" which has always suggested to me that characters have a resting powerlevel and a maximum powerlevel much like your heart has a resting rate and a rate for when your doing physical exercise.

Ginyu's actually said to be the type of human(oid) that can control his battle power, though, so he's an exception.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P5.2
Ginyu: “If you’ve gotten confident from that brief exchange just now, I’ll soon take you down a notch…The truth is that I am also the type of human that can freely alter their battle power…!”

I must have missed Ginyu saying it in the manga, I only thought he said it in the anime. But even if Nappa and Vegeta released their energy Piccolo shouldn't be any more shocked at their power than before. Piccolo clearly says "I never thought it would be this much!" implying that he didn't know how much power Nappa had. If their battle powers always stayed the same and never changed I don't think Piccolo would have said this because he would be able to sense how much he had in the first place. This is why I believe that characters other than the Z-Fighters have a resting battle power and a maximum battle power. It's just that those characters can't lower their battle powers below their resting battle power.

[Senzu_Bean]

We once discussed this same matter and I believe we concluded it really is a basket full of contradictions.

Basically we have characters rising their power through techniques like Kamehameha, Kikoho, etc. long before Mr. Popo introduces what is later known to Freeza's men as something unnatural. Raditz is shocked that Goku & Piccolo can increase their battle power through techniques yet that doesn't have anything to do with what later Nappa, Vegeta, Freeza's men, etc. described they can't do but is treated as the same thing. Then you have Vegeta doing his version of the Kamehameha and match a battle power of 24,000, while before Nappa and Vegeta did exactly the same Goku did to go from 5,000 to over 8,000 yet they claim they cannot change their battle power.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Then you have Vegeta doing his version of the Kamehameha and match a battle power of 24,000

Goku had just used the Kaio-ken x3 and subsequently injured his body, so it could've brought his battle power down to the point that using the Kaio-ken x3 again in conjunction with the Kamehameha could've read at 18,000.

Basically, what I think is that, although Saiyans like Vegeta (pre-Namek) and Nappa may appear as if they're "powering up" and it seems that way to Earthlings (who are more fine-tuned in ki-sensing and don't rely on rigid and restricted Scouters), they'd still always read the same consistent battle power on a scouter. It's just that they'd kind of be releasing more of their ki on the surface. I.e. Vegeta would always read 18,000, even if he's using his Galick Gun.

Characters like Ginyu and Freeza can control their battle power to an extent. As in, they can't suppress down to zero like the Earthlings. So they might have a resting battle power and a maximum battle power. E.g. Ginyu at rest could be 90,000, while his max is 120,000.

You're right, it's not explained well and you could probably class it as a contradictory inconsistency. The above is just my in-universe explanation. Perhaps an out-of-universe explanation is that Toriyama wanted to show the Saiyans and members of Freeza's army "powering up" for dramatic effect, or he just happened to forget all those instances. But yeah, it is hard to look at a guy "powering up" in a similar way to other characters confirmed to be able to control their ki, but the story telling you that his power didn't change one bit.

[Senzu_Bean]

Yep, most likely Mr. Toriyama wanted to show the Saiyans and Freeza powering-up for dramatic effect like you said but that can be throw together as a visual mistake like so many others.

The real inconsistency is why would Raditz be surprised that Goku & Piccolo can increase their battle powers through techniques since everybody was capable of that (Vegeta and mostly likely Nappa) long before Mr. Popo introduced the whole concept of suppressing which is Vegeta later is referring to.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, I may be wrong in saying this, but do we know that, before characters trained under God, attacks like the Kamehameha and Kikoho increased their powers? Again, this may be a contrived in-universe explanation to twist a possible inconsistency into making sense, but if it was portrayed to increase their power, it could just be that, like how Nappa "powered up", it was just them releasing more ki on the surface.

[Senzu_Bean]

Well, Roshi commented how fantastic Tenshinhan ki was when he was powering-up the Kikoho, he even described it as focusing the ki into the hands, which later Raditz is surprised about.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, Roshi commented how fantastic Tenshinhan ki was when he was powering-up the Kikoho, he even described it as focusing the ki into the hands, which later Raditz is surprised about.

Yeah, that's why I was hesitant about whether or not it was stated that it actually increased their powers. But you're right.

So basically, it's just...Toriyama. Being inconsistent. Again.

[Hitiro]

Well, Roshi commented how fantastic Tenshinhan ki was when he was powering-up the Kikoho, he even described it as focusing the ki into the hands, which later Raditz is surprised about.

But I don't think Raditz was surprised that somebody could do that, rather, he was surprised that a planet with the average powerlevel of 5 would have people able to teach Goku and Piccolo the ability to concentrate their energy into one spot and then fire it. All the fighters from space should be able to concentrate their energy into a single point but it's a surprise to see it on a planet with weak powerlevels. This was never brought up on Namek and there were a few Nameks who could also manipulate their ki so Frieza and his forces probably weren't startled by their ability to gather energy into a single spot due to Namek's average powerlevel being in the 1,000's.

[Fox666]

Yep, most likely Mr. Toriyama wanted to show the Saiyans and Freeza powering-up for dramatic effect like you said but that can be throw together as a visual mistake like so many others.

The real inconsistency is why would Raditz be surprised that Goku & Piccolo can increase their battle powers through techniques since everybody was capable of that (Vegeta and mostly likely Nappa) long before Mr. Popo introduced the whole concept of suppressing which is Vegeta later is referring to.

I don't think characters change their battle powers at all when they power-up (except for Ginyu and transformed Freeza). The reason why characters power-up is just to scare their opponents. It's similar to yelling the name of a technique which doesn't have any real purpose.

It's not like if Jhess and Burta attacked Goku from behind he would be unable to defend himself like someone who truly was at 5,000. Even if the Scouter say 5,000 his battle power has always been 90,000. Another example is when Vegeta reads 2,800 from Gohan:

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

Piccolo and Gohan have been fighting Nappa for a while ever since Vegeta was using the Scouter, meaning that their battle power remained at 1,220 or 981 for the whole time.

We once discussed this same matter and I believe we concluded it really is a basket full of contradictions.

Basically we have characters rising their power through techniques like Kamehameha, Kikoho, etc. long before Mr. Popo introduces what is later known to Freeza's men as something unnatural. Raditz is shocked that Goku & Piccolo can increase their battle power through techniques yet that doesn't have anything to do with what later Nappa, Vegeta, Freeza's men, etc. described they can't do but is treated as the same thing. Then you have Vegeta doing his version of the Kamehameha and match a battle power of 24,000, while before Nappa and Vegeta did exactly the same Goku did to go from 5,000 to over 8,000 yet they claim they cannot change their battle power.

I think the Garlic Gun is just stronger than the Kamehameha. So a Garlic Gun of 18,000 can match a Kamehameha of 24,000.

The Makankousappou is classified in the Daizenshuu as "concentration-type" so it could be the reason why his power raise up to 1,330. The Kamehameha is a question I would like to pass, since the Weekly Jump provided that odd battle power of 910 for Goku which there is no official explanation of.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Another example is when Vegeta reads 2,800 from Gohan:

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

Piccolo and Gohan have been fighting Nappa for a while ever since Vegeta was using the Scouter, meaning that their battle power remained at 1,220 or 981 for the whole time.

I thought Vegeta wasn't wearing his scouter for the majority of the battle, as he deemed them useless due to the Earthlings' fluctuating battle powers.

Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”

I can't remember the times that Vegeta put his scouter back on, but I recall that Piccolo and Gohan did less fighting, and more getting the crap beaten out of them, meaning that the times they actually put forth their full power could've been when Vegeta wasn't wearing his scouter.

[Fox666]

Vegeta picked the Scouter when he heard Goku was approaching the battle field, and after reading 5,000 he told Nappa to finish Piccolo and the others quickly. At that point he used the Scouter for a while during the battle. For example:

[Bussani]

But even if Nappa and Vegeta released their energy Piccolo shouldn't be any more shocked at their power than before. Piccolo clearly says "I never thought it would be this much!" implying that he didn't know how much power Nappa had. If their battle powers always stayed the same and never changed I don't think Piccolo would have said this because he would be able to sense how much he had in the first place.

That's true, and it used to make me think the same thing you're suggesting. There are other things that seem to match this way of thinking, such as Gohan not being able to sense Videl's ki until she starts fighting some guys--and Videl didn't even know what ki was at that point. But Freeza's guys really don't treat it like they can raise their battle powers even a little, so it's very inconsistent... Perhaps the idea that scouters and the Earthlings detect ki in slightly different ways is worth thinking about.

An analogy might be like if as a kid someone told you something was 20 meters tall; you might be able to imagine and estimate it in your head, but actually standing next to it and looking up is completely different. Even if Piccolo could sense that Nappa was much stronger than them, feeling that ki wake up and rage like a storm might still blow him away--especially if we consider that he's never felt a ki that large before, so he'd have nothing to compare it to. Another analogy might be knowing that a car has 1,000 horsepower, but actually standing next to the thing when it zooms past you at top speed could make you go, "I didn't know it would be that fast...!"

Really, I think Fox's sine wave analogy could work well here.