Daizenshuu 7, Goku's SSJ PL

[Hitiro]

But even if Nappa and Vegeta released their energy Piccolo shouldn't be any more shocked at their power than before. Piccolo clearly says "I never thought it would be this much!" implying that he didn't know how much power Nappa had. If their battle powers always stayed the same and never changed I don't think Piccolo would have said this because he would be able to sense how much he had in the first place.

That's true, and it used to make me think the same thing you're suggesting. There are other things that seem to match this way of thinking, such as Gohan not being able to sense Videl's ki until she starts fighting some guys--and Videl didn't even know what ki was at that point. But Freeza's guys really don't treat it like they can raise their battle powers even a little, so it's very inconsistent... Perhaps the idea that scouters and the Earthlings detect ki in slightly different ways is worth thinking about.

An analogy might be like if as a kid someone told you something was 20 meters tall; you might be able to imagine and estimate it in your head, but actually standing next to it and looking up is completely different. Even if Piccolo could sense that Nappa was much stronger than them, feeling that ki wake up and rage like a storm might still blow him away--especially if we consider that he's never felt a ki that large before, so he'd have nothing to compare it to. Another analogy might be knowing that a car has 1,000 horsepower, but actually standing next to the thing when it zooms past you at top speed could make you go, "I didn't know it would be that fast...!"

Really, I think Fox's sine wave analogy could work well here.

But if we go back to when Goku is fighting Vegeta though we can clearly see that he's fighting on par with Vegeta with his Kaioken, then Vegeta unleashes his power and all of a sudden Goku is at a major disadvantage, not even able to keep up with Kaioken x2. This leads me to believe that characters who can't manipulate their ki can still push it to their maximum, if you think of people in general we can decide on how much strength we exert in things. If your doing an arm wrestle with your friend and you clearly have the greater strength then to mess about you would purposely hold back your strength to prolong the arm wrestle. Likewise when you walk about in your every day life you don't exert 100% of your strength from walking about, you only use the necessary amount to walk about. That's why I feel that all characters have a resting powerlevel and a maximum powerlevel.

[Bussani]

But if we go back to when Goku is fighting Vegeta though we can clearly see that he's fighting on par with Vegeta with his Kaioken, then Vegeta unleashes his power and all of a sudden Goku is at a major disadvantage, not even able to keep up with Kaioken x2. This leads me to believe that characters who can't manipulate their ki can still push it to their maximum, if you think of people in general we can decide on how much strength we exert in things. If your doing an arm wrestle with your friend and you clearly have the greater strength then to mess about you would purposely hold back your strength to prolong the arm wrestle. Likewise when you walk about in your every day life you don't exert 100% of your strength from walking about, you only use the necessary amount to walk about. That's why I feel that all characters have a resting powerlevel and a maximum powerlevel.

It's possible, of course. That's more or less how I see it working in similar shonen stories, which is why I also used to assume it worked this way in Dragon Ball. But does having your full ki out necessarily mean that every movement you make is automatically at full speed and full strength? Is it impossible to control how much force you put into something without your battle power being lower? I assume it would be harder the higher your power actually is, but...I dunno. There are a lot of angles to view this from, including Toriyama being just being forgetful and inconsistent. I seem to hear a new point of view every time the subject comes up!

[Hitiro]

But if we go back to when Goku is fighting Vegeta though we can clearly see that he's fighting on par with Vegeta with his Kaioken, then Vegeta unleashes his power and all of a sudden Goku is at a major disadvantage, not even able to keep up with Kaioken x2. This leads me to believe that characters who can't manipulate their ki can still push it to their maximum, if you think of people in general we can decide on how much strength we exert in things. If your doing an arm wrestle with your friend and you clearly have the greater strength then to mess about you would purposely hold back your strength to prolong the arm wrestle. Likewise when you walk about in your every day life you don't exert 100% of your strength from walking about, you only use the necessary amount to walk about. That's why I feel that all characters have a resting powerlevel and a maximum powerlevel.

It's possible, of course. That's more or less how I see it working in similar shonen stories, which is why I also used to assume it worked this way in Dragon Ball. But does having your full ki out necessarily mean that every movement you make is automatically at full speed and full strength? Is it impossible to control how much force you put into something without your battle power being lower? I assume it would be harder the higher your power actually is, but...I dunno. There are a lot of angles to view this from, including Toriyama being just being forgetful and inconsistent. I seem to hear a new point of view every time the subject comes up!

Considering Vegeta says to Cui: "Did you think my speed would also not increase if my battle power did?" speed and strength have a direct correlation to the powerlevel you have. If we also take Krillin explaining to Gohan that they shouldn't fly because it exerts energy and they want to stay hidden the that implies, to me at least, that you need to use a certain amount of powerlevel in order to fly. Even while they were jumping across the land and arrived at the location where Frieza and his men were the exertion of their jumping clocked on Dodoria's scouter for a second. This says to me that it is impossible to hide your power level while doing feats like jumping a hundred meters in one jump or moving at the speed of sound. If we take Goku on the other hand, while he's fighting against Ginyu and his men he purposely increases his powerlevel for only a fraction of a second before hiding it again to dish out damage and move about much faster than the Ginyu force. Never in any fights does he actually use a powerlevel of 5,000 to defeat his opponents, he instead flashes his powelevel to 90,000 hit's Recoome, for instance, and then returns his powerlevel to 5,000 without anybody noticing.

[Bussani]

I don't see how any of that applies to what I said. I didn't say characters could do large feats without having a high battle power--I definitely don't think they can. What I was pondering was whether they could do small feats while having a high battle power. That is, if you have a battle power of 120,000,000, is every movement you make automatically at phenomenal speeds? I think the answer is probably no, at least not necessarily, but holding yourself back should at least be easier if you can lower your power.

I still think Fox's sine wave analogy might be worth thinking about. There's definitely a difference between a large yet calm ki and an equally large yet raging ki (i.e. just having a large ki doesn't cause the world to shake in and of itself), though scouters, which apparently only care about the size/amount, don't tell you the difference. People who can sense ki, on the other hand, can sense what it's doing. Maybe what Goku and the gang call a "large ki" is a combination of the amount and how much that amount is blazing and churning and raging; if so, it could be that Nappa and Vegeta's ki "got bigger" from an Earthling's perspective, but not from a scouter's perspective.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But if we go back to when Goku is fighting Vegeta though we can clearly see that he's fighting on par with Vegeta with his Kaioken, then Vegeta unleashes his power and all of a sudden Goku is at a major disadvantage, not even able to keep up with Kaioken x2.

Vegeta was toying with Goku until he used Kaio-ken x3. Goku himself even says so. The only reason that Vegeta got hit by Goku's regular Kaio-ken is because he was caught off-guard. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was suppressed, just that he wasn't putting as much effort into his attacks as he would with a real opponent.

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P8.1
Context: Vegeta is unimpressed by Goku's performance.
Vegeta: "I don’t think you were like this when you defeated Nappa!”

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P9.2
Goku: “It figures...He’s still just joking around, but he’s still surpassing me in speed and technique.”

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

[Hitiro]

But if we go back to when Goku is fighting Vegeta though we can clearly see that he's fighting on par with Vegeta with his Kaioken, then Vegeta unleashes his power and all of a sudden Goku is at a major disadvantage, not even able to keep up with Kaioken x2.

Vegeta was toying with Goku until he used Kaio-ken x3. Goku himself even says so. The only reason that Vegeta got hit by Goku's regular Kaio-ken is because he was caught off-guard. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was suppressed, just that he wasn't putting as much effort into his attacks as he would with a real opponent.

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P8.1
Context: Vegeta is unimpressed by Goku's performance.
Vegeta: "I don’t think you were like this when you defeated Nappa!”

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P9.2
Goku: “It figures...He’s still just joking around, but he’s still surpassing me in speed and technique.”

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

That's what I was trying to say, Vegeta wasn't using his full power against Goku at the time but after the quick power-up he easily surpassed Goku's Kaioken x2. Like I said this points me towards Vegeta using his normal resting powerlevel which is like a person who is just walking around not exerting 100% of their strength and then using much more strength which would be comparable to me or you doing a much more physical activity.

I don't see how any of that applies to what I said. I didn't say characters could do large feats without having a high battle power--I definitely don't think they can. What I was pondering was whether they could do small feats while having a high battle power. That is, if you have a battle power of 120,000,000, is every movement you make automatically at phenomenal speeds? I think the answer is probably no, at least not necessarily, but holding yourself back should at least be easier if you can lower your power.

I still think Fox's sine wave analogy might be worth thinking about. There's definitely a difference between a large yet calm ki and an equally large yet raging ki (i.e. just having a large ki doesn't cause the world to shake in and of itself), though scouters, which apparently only care about the size/amount, don't tell you the difference. People who can sense ki, on the other hand, can sense what it's doing. Maybe what Goku and the gang call a "large ki" is a combination of the amount and how much that amount is blazing and churning and raging; if so, it could be that Nappa and Vegeta's ki "got bigger" from an Earthling's perspective, but not from a scouter's perspective.

Well it stands to reason that if a character who is doing smaller feats to prevent their powerlevel from being discovered, in this case Krillin and Gohan. Then they must be able to do small feats at a lower powerlevel but those small feats are much easier to do at a lower powerlevel. Also the whole shaking the world thing I concluded to the way their energy leaves their body, for example, if your body doesn't usually express that amount of energy then it doesn't flow from you as well as it should. Because it doesn't flow from you as well you produce pressure that shakes the planet, if you think about it as being a water pipe then you can let water out of the pipe and depending on the quantity of water and the size of the pipe directly points to whether the water comes out easier. Now if you increase the amount of water coming from the pipe or you make the end smaller you get a build up of pressure and the water comes out further and in more of a stream. You can also feel the pipe shake as the build up of pressure is felt at the end of the pipe.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta was toying with Goku until he used Kaio-ken x3. Goku himself even says so. The only reason that Vegeta got hit by Goku's regular Kaio-ken is because he was caught off-guard. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was suppressed, just that he wasn't putting as much effort into his attacks as he would with a real opponent.

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P8.1
Context: Vegeta is unimpressed by Goku's performance.
Vegeta: "I don’t think you were like this when you defeated Nappa!”

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P9.2
Goku: “It figures...He’s still just joking around, but he’s still surpassing me in speed and technique.”

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

That's what I was trying to say, Vegeta wasn't using his full power against Goku at the time but after the quick power-up he easily surpassed Goku's Kaioken x2. Like I said this points me towards Vegeta using his normal resting powerlevel which is like a person who is just walking around not exerting 100% of their strength and then using much more strength which would be comparable to me or you doing a much more physical activity.

I understand your point, and it's pretty much what I'm saying too, but what I'm saying is that the power-up fundamentally didn't change anything. Vegeta still had the upper hand before and after the power-up, which didn't change his battle power at all. He'd still read 18,000 on a scouter. I think I'm recalling from Viz, but I believe, before his power-up, Vegeta said, "Before you die, should I show the full power of a Saiyan elite?" I take that to mean that he just wants to show off by showing his full power before killing Goku, which he could do beforehand anyway.

I'm getting a bit confused here. I don't know whether what we're both saying is the same, or all this ambiguity is causing us to misconstrue each other's theories.

[Hitiro]

I personally feel that Vegeta's powerlevel went up to 18,000 as that was his maximum output. It seems silly to me that he would say that to Goku if he was already using 100% but just toying around with him. I don't think a character would have any reason for unleashing their energy like that unless they weren't fighting at their maximum. And if we also look at Nappa who was in a fit of rage against Goku at first he did a lot worse, after Vegeta told him to calm down however Nappa was doing much better. This says to me that your state of mind can also effect how much power you use.

[Kaboom]

The best way I can think of to explain it is the same way Bussani put it. That when Vegeta "surfaced his Ki," it made the full scope of his power more obvious to Goku, a natural Ki-senser, as opposed to a scouter which would read 18,000 for him the whole time.

[Hitiro]

The best way I can think of to explain it is the same way Bussani put it. That when Vegeta "surfaced his Ki," it made the full scope of his power more obvious to Goku, a natural Ki-senser, as opposed to a scouter which would read 18,000 for him the whole time.

But that's like saying a scouter is more accurate? We know it's not because the Z-fighters can hide their power level. If it worked that way then people who are able to sense Ki would never be able to tell if someone was clearly stronger than them because they would have to wait until the Ki surfaced.

[Kaboom]

But that's like saying a scouter is more accurate?

I wouldn't say more accurate, really. Just more... "straightforward."

[Piccolo Daimao]

The best way I can think of to explain it is the same way Bussani put it. That when Vegeta "surfaced his Ki," it made the full scope of his power more obvious to Goku, a natural Ki-senser, as opposed to a scouter which would read 18,000 for him the whole time.

But that's like saying a scouter is more accurate? We know it's not because the Z-fighters can hide their power level. If it worked that way then people who are able to sense Ki would never be able to tell if someone was clearly stronger than them because they would have to wait until the Ki surfaced.

It's not like saying a scouter's more accurate. Obviously, a scouter can't tell when someone's suppressed (like the Earthlings), and the Saiyans, Freeza and his men's reliance on the scouters often end up being their downfall. They don't learn how to sense ki and it can cause them to be taken off-guard if they're facing an opponent who can control their battle power. An example of someone who relies on his eyes to track his opponent's movement rather than ki is when Goku blinded Tenshinhan with the Taiyo-ken at the 23rd TB, rendering Tenshinhan totally incapable of attacking Goku because, without his three eyes, he was lost. He could sense ki, but he hadn't learned to track the movement of someone moving at super-speed using ki-sensing alone.

Not to mention that the Earthlings have a more in-depth knowledge of ki, and that's outside of how to use it for strength.

Of course, if scouters were really more accurate than natural ki-sensing, then Goku and the others would start using that instead. But, as the story set out, they're not, so they didn't.

Just read this: http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=bps

But that's like saying a scouter is more accurate?

I wouldn't say more accurate, really. Just more... "straightforward."

I guess you could say that scouters are able to pinpoint exactly how strong an opponent. But that's only at a current point at time, whereas natural ki-sensing are able to sense ki under the surface (as in, whether or not someone's suppressed), the subtle nuances of it in general and how to utilise it in areas other than physical strength. That's the reason why Vegeta chose not to wear it for most of the battle, because he knew that his opponents' battle powers fluctuated in response to the fight.

Not to mention their tendency to explode when they exceed a certain level of power, rendering the user incapable of knowing how strong their opponent is.

[Bussani]

It seems silly to me that he would say that to Goku if he was already using 100% but just toying around with him.

It's only silly if we're forced to assume that having 100% of your ki out is the same as using it all and fighting for real, which is what I was pondering.

But that's like saying a scouter is more accurate?

Quite the opposite, I think. It would mean that a scouter can't tell the difference between 4,000 standing around and 4,000 preparing to kill you, but people who can sense ki can. It's kind of like taking a sleeping dragon and a dragon that's woken up and is trying to kill you: fundamentally they're both dragons, and being next to either would be scary, but one's much scarier and more menacing than the other.

[Fox666]

I think the Scouters are more accurate, at least for most of the life forms in the universe, however they are unable to tell the strength of someone who can control the Ki, rendering them mostly useless against the Earthlings.

But it's interesting to see how Vegeta quickly forget about the Scouters after he find out how to sense the Ki.

[Hitiro]

Eh, I still stand by the premise that powerlevels for all characters are like a heartbeats. The more you exert yourself the higher it goes but you'll always have a resting powerlevel that is when your not doing anything at all. The only difference with this is Goku and the Z-fighters are like highly trained assassins or agents you see in the movies that can slow their heartbeat down to a small amount or even make it stop for a second. In this respect Goku and the Z-fighters basically lower their powerlevels well below their resting value. To me it just seems more plausible as to the reason why characters are so surprised by their opponents strength when they start using their maximum strength in the Saiyan saga. And I've not seen it stated that characters don't increase their strength to a maximum level they have, only that Goku and the Z-fighters have the ability to decrease their powerlevels to much lower than what they should be and bring them to their maximum when they need to. I guess there's a lot of ambiguity in scenes and the way characters say things that leave the whole thing open to many interpretations. But the one thing most of us, I hope, can agree on is that if a character has received a beating their powerlevel will also be effected in turn. We see Vegeta take a pretty bad beating on earth and when he goes to kill everyone with his energy after being sent up to the stratosphere by the Genki Dama he can't dish out the killing blow so he attempted to kill them all individually with his own hands. Considering his inability to nuke Gohan, Goku and Krillin with his energy at this point I believe his battle power must have dropped considerably due to the injuries he sustained.

[Fox666]

Maybe the Ki is like heartbeats, but the battle power given by a Scouter is slight different.

[Bussani]

Eh, I still stand by the premise that powerlevels for all characters are like a heartbeats. The more you exert yourself the higher it goes but you'll always have a resting powerlevel that is when your not doing anything at all. The only difference with this is Goku and the Z-fighters are like highly trained assassins or agents you see in the movies that can slow their heartbeat down to a small amount or even make it stop for a second. In this respect Goku and the Z-fighters basically lower their powerlevels well below their resting value. To me it just seems more plausible as to the reason why characters are so surprised by their opponents strength when they start using their maximum strength in the Saiyan saga. And I've not seen it stated that characters don't increase their strength to a maximum level they have, only that Goku and the Z-fighters have the ability to decrease their powerlevels to much lower than what they should be and bring them to their maximum when they need to.

I get what you're saying, and I always thought it should work that way as well...but...that's not how the story seems to think battle powers work for some reason. Freeza's goons seem surprised by any change in battle power; they don't take a "standing around" reading of someone and assume it will go up when they start fighting. Even Vegeta and Nappa, who actually appear to power up themselves.

Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”

Maybe they think the numbers would only change slightly, but then, their own two shouldn't have changed that much either, so why are the Earthlings as shocked as they are? Either way, it seems to me that whatever is scaring them out of their wits is something battle power doesn't cover.

[Hitiro]

Eh, I still stand by the premise that powerlevels for all characters are like a heartbeats. The more you exert yourself the higher it goes but you'll always have a resting powerlevel that is when your not doing anything at all. The only difference with this is Goku and the Z-fighters are like highly trained assassins or agents you see in the movies that can slow their heartbeat down to a small amount or even make it stop for a second. In this respect Goku and the Z-fighters basically lower their powerlevels well below their resting value. To me it just seems more plausible as to the reason why characters are so surprised by their opponents strength when they start using their maximum strength in the Saiyan saga. And I've not seen it stated that characters don't increase their strength to a maximum level they have, only that Goku and the Z-fighters have the ability to decrease their powerlevels to much lower than what they should be and bring them to their maximum when they need to.

I get what you're saying, and I always thought it should work that way as well...but...that's not how the story seems to think battle powers work for some reason. Freeza's goons seem surprised by any change in battle power; they don't take a "standing around" reading of someone and assume it will go up when they start fighting. Even Vegeta and Nappa, who actually appear to power up themselves.

Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”

Maybe they think the numbers would only change slightly, but then, their own two shouldn't have changed that much either, so why are the Earthlings as shocked as they are? Either way, it seems to me that whatever is scaring them out of their wits is something battle power doesn't cover.

That isn't correct, what about the talk between Burter and Jeice? Gohan had his neck broken by Recoome and Jeice says: "Looks like all that brats energy is almost completely gone." Burter says: "Breaking your neck will do that."

[Fox666]

They tought Gohan was dead.

Chapter: 278 (DBZ 84), P13.5
Context: after Recoom kicks Gohan hard
Jheese: “He’s all but dead. He doesn’t have any battle power remaining.”
Burta: “Naturally. His neck’s broken.”

[Hitiro]

They tought Gohan was dead.

Chapter: 278 (DBZ 84), P13.5
Context: after Recoom kicks Gohan hard
Jheese: “He’s all but dead. He doesn’t have any battle power remaining.”
Burta: “Naturally. His neck’s broken.”

How did they think he was dead? You just said Jeice said "He's ALL but dead." There was no such thought that he was dead, only, that he was close to dying. If injuries didn't affect battle power then how did they know he was on his way out to being dead? Because like Jeice said "He doesn't have any battle power remaining." Which means that he did lose battle power from being injured. Another example is Gohan against Cell, after he saved Vegeta he lost over half of his energy, he tells Goku this when Goku tells him not to give up.