Daizenshuu 7, Goku's SSJ PL

[Bussani]

That isn't correct, what about the talk between Burter and Jeice? Gohan had his neck broken by Recoome and Jeice says: "Looks like all that brats energy is almost completely gone." Burter says: "Breaking your neck will do that."

I meant that they don't seem to expect the battle powers to rise once the fighting starts. I guess I should have been more specific, but I already posted a bunch of quotes about things lowering battle powers earlier in the thread, and I agree with you and think that plenty of things can.

[bizness86]

From what I've read; I feel as if I can give at least some opinion concerning dynamic battle power readings.

I believe most of Frieza's henchmen were shocked to find that there are fighters would can alter their fighting power at will; being beaten to death, or power fading from generally giving/burning out, I'd hope, would not constitute as a willful power decrease.

It seems as most of the henchmen would pull out the scouters and get readings of fresh fighters as to know how their peak power; fighters probably wouldn't grow any stronger than when at peak. The counterexample would have been the Z Warriors, or even the Moori Village Namekians.

As far as Goku's initial Super Saiyan transformation, I would actually not call it stretching in stating that the transformation could have either restored his stamina or forced his power-up. Frieza seemed refreshed after each transformation. I suppose I also share the opinion that Kaioken would actually force power-up; as in, Goku (Saiyan Saga) at 5000 could trigger Kaioken and probably raise to > 16000.

Merely opinions, but I thought I'd share.

[dbgtFO]

From what I've read; I feel as if I can give at least some opinion concerning dynamic battle power readings.

I believe most of Freeza's henchmen were shocked to find that there are fighters would can alter their fighting power at will; being beaten to death, or power fading from generally giving/burning out, I'd hope, would not constitute as a willful power decrease.

It seems as most of the henchmen would pull out the scouters and get readings of fresh fighters as to know how their peak power; fighters probably wouldn't grow any stronger than when at peak. The counterexample would have been the Z Warriors, or even the Moori Village Namekians.

That's what the story told me too.

Most of Freeza's henchmen do not have the ability to willfully alter their scouter readings. People, who have a transforming ability(like Zarbon and Saiyans), can, but only when they are going from one form to the other.

So Nappa and Vegeta surprising the heroes with their powers on Earth does not mean the reading on the scouter would actually be different. Afterall Vegeta didn't know how to control his battle power before going to Earth, so his power-up would not change anything on the scouter going by his own words.

It's only to those who can actually sense ki that it feels much more fearful than before, since you're getting a better grasp of it.
This is most likely because the ki is more intense to a natural ki sensor, when it's actually being put to use as opposed to just standing around doing nothing.

So yeah, scouters are more reliable than natural ki sensing, when it comes to detecting the power of a person who can't change their scouter readings(Freeza's henchmen, most of the beings Freeza's henchmen have encountered most likely).
It's only when we are dealing with people who can change their scouter readings at will, that it becomes unrealiable ie. Goku instantly going from 5,000 to 90,000 vs. Ginyu's Squad and the prime example: Trunks who is above a million, suppressing his power down to 5, just like the average earthling.

What's everyone's thoughts on this area? Am I over analyzing this? Can anybody clarify if it actually says 150 million is what Goku's SSJ PL would be if he was fresh?

As far as I can tell Kanzentai translated every piece of text on those pages and it doesn't say anything about 150 million being Goku's fresh or injured battle power.

Either way Goku who was suppose to be 30 million higher than Freeza's powerlevel was fighting him pretty evenly despite having a more overwhelming powerlevel so if 150 million is Goku's fresh SSJ powerlevel then it would make more sense when Trunks takes him out pretty easily compared to Goku on Namek. If Goku had thought Freeza in SSJ while he was fresh on Namek perhaps the battle would have gone differently.

I don't think you should look at it that way. It's most likely the proportional difference that matters fx. when they first met Person A had BP 10, Person B had BP 20. 10 years later Person A has BP 100 and Person B has BP 200.
In both cases Person B's BP is double that of Person A's, so despite the gap in units alone being much bigger, the proportional difference is the same.

You wouldn't say Goku's regular Kaioken on Namek is different from the regular Kaioken he used on Earth just because on Namek he went up by 90,000 units and on Earth he only went up 8,000 units, would you?
In both cases his power was doubled, so it's the exact same technique.

And trying to determine a specific gap based on a fight and then trying to determine that the official battle powers are wrong because it doesn't fit within one's own idea of battle power relation is without a doubt not the best way to look at things.

In any case Goku and Freeza's fight was rather short once they both were serious. They only had two hand-to-hand bouts and in both cases Goku emerged the victor, so Goku being significantly stronger than Freeza like the official battle powers say he was, seems accurate.
It's only in the anime, where it's drawn out extremely, that Freeza seemed capable of competing evenly with Goku.

[Hitiro]

I don't think you should look at it that way. It's most likely the proportional difference that matters fx. when they first met Person A had BP 10, Person B had BP 20. 10 years later Person A has BP 100 and Person B has BP 200.
In both cases Person B's BP is double that of Person A's, so despite the gap in units alone being much bigger, the proportional difference is the same.

You wouldn't say Goku's regular Kaioken on Namek is different from the regular Kaioken he used on Earth just because on Namek he went up by 90,000 units and on Earth he only went up 8,000 units, would you?
In both cases his power was doubled, so it's the exact same technique.

And trying to determine a specific gap based on a fight and then trying to determine that the official battle powers are wrong because it doesn't fit within one's own idea of battle power relation is without a doubt not the best way to look at things.

In any case Goku and Freeza's fight was rather short once they both were serious. They only had two hand-to-hand bouts and in both cases Goku emerged the victor, so Goku being significantly stronger than Freeza like the official battle powers say he was, seems accurate.
It's only in the anime, where it's drawn out extremely, that Freeza seemed capable of competing evenly with Goku.

But that's if your considering that a person who is double your strength doesn't put you at a major disadvantage, it's all good and well if the gap is small enough to deal with somebody who is double your strength and speed. If your top speed was 5 miles per hour in movement and you were up against someone who could move about at 10 miles per hour even though they have double your speed you could still deal with them for the most part. It's as numbers increase to really high values that doubling becomes a problem. If you move at half the speed of light and your opponent can move twice as fast as you then you'll be destroyed. A person who moves at 5 miles per hour against an opponent who is double his speed has a much better chance at winning compared to the latter.

[Fox666]

What's everyone's thoughts on this area? Am I over analyzing this? Can anybody clarify if it actually says 150 million is what Goku's SSJ PL would be if he was fresh?

If you look at the Daizenshuu, it states Goku battle power at the beggining of the fight was 3,000,000 and Freeza was 60,000,000 while using 50% of his power. At that point they did not had any significant injury, meaning 150 and 120 million are their "fresh" battle power.

I suppose I also share the opinion that Kaioken would actually force power-up; as in, Goku (Saiyan Saga) at 5000 could trigger Kaioken and probably raise to > 16000.

That's correct, the moment Goku used the Kaio-ken against Ginyu his battle power instantly raised to 90,000.

But that's if your considering that a person who is double your strength doesn't put you at a major disadvantage, it's all good and well if the gap is small enough to deal with somebody who is double your strength and speed. If your top speed was 5 miles per hour in movement and you were up against someone who could move about at 10 miles per hour even though they have double your speed you could still deal with them for the most part. It's as numbers increase to really high values that doubling becomes a problem. If you move at half the speed of light and your opponent can move twice as fast as you then you'll be destroyed. A person who moves at 5 miles per hour against an opponent who is double his speed has a much better chance at winning compared to the latter.

It does not necessairly works that way.

In Yu Yu Hakusho, for example, Toguro seems to get a whole lot stronger by increasing his strength in 10 or 20 percent. The difference is noticeable more effective than it is in Dragon Ball.

[Bussani]

So Nappa and Vegeta surprising the heroes with their powers on Earth does not mean the reading on the scouter would actually be different. Afterall Vegeta didn't know how to control his battle power before going to Earth, so his power-up would not change anything on the scouter going by his own words.

It's only to those who can actually sense ki that it feels much more fearful than before, since you're getting a better grasp of it.
This is most likely because the ki is more intense to a natural ki sensor, when it's actually being put to use as opposed to just standing around doing nothing.

There are a few other things pointing towards this that I haven't even mentioned yet. For instance, everyone could tell that Nappa and Vegeta had enormous ki the moment they showed up, yet, as we've gone over, they're still blown away when they unleash it. But then there's this line...

Chapter: 219 (DBZ 25), P12.5
Piccolo: “The way the big one cowered…that must mean that the little one is even more powerful. It’s hopeless!”

So he couldn't tell Vegeta was the stronger of the two yet? But if battle powers did change between standing around and fighting, that would have to mean Vegeta's standing around reading would be as low as Nappa's, if not lower! But that wouldn't really go with other lines, like:

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

The way Vegeta says that definitely doesn't make it seem like he was in the same boat, and if battle powers fluctuated that much between standing and fighting, taking standing readings would be almost completely pointless.

So yeah, scouters are more reliable than natural ki sensing, when it comes to detecting the power of a person who can't change their scouter readings(Freeza's henchmen, most of the beings Freeza's henchmen have encountered most likely).

Something I've been wondering... Maybe scouters were more accurate at the time of the Saiyan fight, but not later on. After all, just a year prior to the fight Piccolo and Goku couldn't even find where Raditz had taken Gohan by his ki, but his scouter kept track of both of them just fine.

[dbgtFO]

The way Vegeta says that definitely doesn't make it seem like he was in the same boat, and if battle powers fluctuated that much between standing and fighting, taking standing readings would be almost completely pointless.

I agree. It's nice how you brought up such good examples, I hadn't even thought of.

Something I've been wondering... Maybe scouters were more accurate at the time of the Saiyan fight, but not later on. After all, just a year prior to the fight Piccolo and Goku couldn't even find where Raditz had taken Gohan by his ki, but his scouter kept track of both of them just fine.

It seems their ki sensing is forever improving. In the Saiyan Arc Goku didn't know which ki belonged to whom, when he was racing to get there, but in the Freeza Arc he's able to tell their distinctive ki signatures apart upon his arrival on Namek.

I think that their natural ki sensing combined with their intuition(?) did surpass scouters, when it comes to estimating the power of a person who can suppress his/her power, but that's only because Goku, Krillin and Karin each show the ability to somehow estimate Person B's suppressed power may be this or that great, which they were eventually right about.

Goku was also quick to not underestimate Buu, when he first appeared, because he sensed something unusual about his ki, which a scouter wouldn't.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Either way Goku who was suppose to be 30 million higher than Freeza's powerlevel was fighting him pretty evenly despite having a more overwhelming powerlevel so if 150 million is Goku's fresh SSJ powerlevel then it would make more sense when Trunks takes him out pretty easily compared to Goku on Namek. If Goku had thought Freeza in SSJ while he was fresh on Namek perhaps the battle would have gone differently.

I don't think you should look at it that way. It's most likely the proportional difference that matters fx. when they first met Person A had BP 10, Person B had BP 20. 10 years later Person A has BP 100 and Person B has BP 200.
In both cases Person B's BP is double that of Person A's, so despite the gap in units alone being much bigger, the proportional difference is the same.

You wouldn't say Goku's regular Kaioken on Namek is different from the regular Kaioken he used on Earth just because on Namek he went up by 90,000 units and on Earth he only went up 8,000 units, would you?
In both cases his power was doubled, so it's the exact same technique.

And trying to determine a specific gap based on a fight and then trying to determine that the official battle powers are wrong because it doesn't fit within one's own idea of battle power relation is without a doubt not the best way to look at things.

In any case Goku and Freeza's fight was rather short once they both were serious. They only had two hand-to-hand bouts and in both cases Goku emerged the victor, so Goku being significantly stronger than Freeza like the official battle powers say he was, seems accurate.
It's only in the anime, where it's drawn out extremely, that Freeza seemed capable of competing evenly with Goku.

I don't think it's even the proportional difference that matters, or, at least, not as much. Toriyama just seems to dish out the battle power numbers randomly. What ultimately matters is that, if you're going to look at it in such a restricted manner as the battle powers, one must be stronger than the other, and how much stronger can be arbitray and simply insignificant. For example (and this might be a shit one, since it's practically the same as Goku and Freeza's, but whatever), Saibaimen's 1,200 was still said to rival Raditz's 1,500.

And of course, there are other factors surrounding which fighter would win. Speed, skill, energy consumption, regeneration, confidence, arrogance, etc. Most obvious example is SSjG3 Trunks against Cell. But another is Vegeta vs. normal Zarbon (24,000 vs. 23,000, yet Vegeta was whooping his ass, and a theory for this has been that Vegeta could sense his ki movements while Zarbon could not).

But yeah, Goku and Freeza's battle wasn't as long as the anime's, and even in the manga, we didn't really get to see that much. I don't really want to give some panel-by-panel account of the fight, so I'll try to be brief. We first see Freeza beat up Goku as a warm-up soon after he's powered up, but Goku mocks him.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P14.3-4
Context: after full power Freeza beats up on Goku
Freeza: “Haah…haah…Kukkukku…How was that? That just now was a warm up exercise for the final attack that I’m about to show you.”
Goku: “…I figured…It’d have been disappointed if you were at that kind of level…”

Then they get serious and there's a relatively brief scuffle (it's hard to explain, but it doesn't really tell you anything either way), before Goku tosses Freeza into the air and they go into their beam struggle, after which Freeza pulls out of it and rams Goku into the water, taking him by surprise as he was still the middle of his Kamehameha. Then, later, they have a hand-to-hand battle, at which towards the end, we see Goku gain the upper hand against an exhausting Freeza, visibly breathing more heavily while Goku looks fine. Then Goku quits.

Whether or not Goku was significantly stronger than Freeza doesn't matter. I think people should just try and ignore the restricting numbers and look at the fight itself. Goku and Freeza are evenly matched, but Goku is somewhat stronger while Freeza is rapidly losing ki.

Also, just a side-note that I wanted to mention. With Gohan apparently losing "half his power", the argument could be made that Gohan simply didn't have enough confidence in his power, as it took Goku's encouragement and Vegeta's distraction of Cell for Gohan to finally let rip and use his full power to destroy Cell. I think he had more power within him than he gave himself credit for.

Something I've been wondering... Maybe scouters were more accurate at the time of the Saiyan fight, but not later on. After all, just a year prior to the fight Piccolo and Goku couldn't even find where Raditz had taken Gohan by his ki, but his scouter kept track of both of them just fine.

It seems their ki sensing is forever improving. In the Saiyan Arc Goku didn't know which ki belonged to whom, when he was racing to get there, but in the Freeza Arc he's able to tell their distinctive ki signatures apart upon his arrival on Namek.

I think that their natural ki sensing combined with their intuition(?) did surpass scouters, when it comes to estimating the power of a person who can suppress his/her power, but that's only because Goku, Krillin and Karin each show the ability to somehow estimate Person B's suppressed power may be this or that great, which they were eventually right about.

Goku was also quick to not underestimate Buu, when he first appeared, because he sensed something unusual about his ki, which a scouter wouldn't.

Yeah, I think at first, they could only sense characters' ki that were at a close proximity to them, but ones that were really far away were out of their reach. Piccolo didn't even sense Raditz's ki until it was coming right at him.

It's like how their flying appeared to improve too. In the Saiyan arc, Goku tried to fly across the Serpent Road, but because he used up his ki, he had to run the rest of the way. Later, after he'd completed his training under Kaio and was returning to Earth, he was able to just aura-up and fly freely (although we did see him not fly, but run and jump occasionally, so I assume he dropped out of flying once his ki ran out and then resorted to running and jumping until his ki came back). But once he'd returned to Earth, he still had to use Kinto'un so he could preserve his ki and save his friends before defeating the Saiyans.

Then, of course, as the series progressed, the characters could just fly without any worries about ki consumption.

And I think the "abnormal" thing that Goku sensed about his ki was either its demonic nature or that, like Gohan and Kuririn with the Namekians in Muuri's village, he could feel that he had more power within him, after Vegeta dismissed his power as beneath them.

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, its Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”