DragonBall Opposing Views: Cell's power after he returned

[Bussani]

It is also said in the manga that Gohan turned 11 during his time in the RoSaT.

Ah, was it? Can you tell me when please?

Even if you ignore the RoSaT, Gohan should be 17 after the 7 years passed since the Cell Games. Since the narrator says in the manga that Gohan is 16, fans assume that his birthday occur beetween the months before the 25th Budokai.

Okay. Makes sense to me.

[Fox666]

It is also said in the manga that Gohan turned 11 during his time in the RoSaT.

Ah, was it? Can you tell me when please?

Sorry, my bad, I think it was in the anime, not the manga.

[Bussani]

It is also said in the manga that Gohan turned 11 during his time in the RoSaT.

Ah, was it? Can you tell me when please?

Sorry, my bad, I think it was in the anime, not the manga.

Ah, okay. There was a piece of filler where they celebrated his birthday, so I just wondered if that was actually based on something in the manga after all.

[DBZ Mick]

7 at the time Goku returned from Yardrat

He was 6, wasn't he? There was only a 1 year gap between the events of Namek and Freeza's arrival on Earth.

[Bussani]

7 at the time Goku returned from Yardrat

He was 6, wasn't he? There was only a 1 year gap between the events of Namek and Freeza's arrival on Earth.

There was a year between the Namekians leaving Earth and Goku returning, but the Namekians were on Earth for 260 days while everyone used their dragon balls to resurrect Yamcha and the others.

[Herms]

There was a year between the Namekians leaving Earth and Goku returning, but the Namekians were on Earth for 260 days while everyone used their dragon balls to resurrect Yamcha and the others.

The anime does however change this to just being a year total in the opening narration for Chapter 118. Damn anime.

[Bussani]

There was a year between the Namekians leaving Earth and Goku returning, but the Namekians were on Earth for 260 days while everyone used their dragon balls to resurrect Yamcha and the others.

The anime does however change this to just being a year total in the opening narration for Chapter 118. Damn anime.

Ah, I forgot that. For curiosity's sake, could you tell us how the Japanese version of the manga words it?

On an unrelated note, I just realized I was browsing "test.kanzentai.com". What's the deal with that?

[Herms]

Ah, I forgot that. For curiosity's sake, could you tell us how the Japanese version of the manga words it?

The narration explains how the Namekians immigrate to their new planet, and in the next panel it says:

そして
それから
約1年の時が
すぎた………….

"And so, about 1 year's time has passed since then..."

It does rather hinge on when "then" is, but in context I think it's pretty clear that it's referring to the Namekians leaving for New Namek, since it follows directly after the explanation of that, while the battle with Freeza isn't mentioned anywhere nearby. And that is what the Daizenshuu 7 timeline goes with.

On an unrelated note, I just realized I was browsing "test.kanzentai.com". What's the deal with that?

What do you mean?

[Bussani]

Ah, I forgot that. For curiosity's sake, could you tell us how the Japanese version of the manga words it?

The narration explains how the Namekians immigrate to their new planet, and in the next panel it says:

そして
それから
約1年の時が
すぎた………….

"And so, about 1 year's time has passed since then..."

It does rather hinge on when "then" is, but in context I think it's pretty clear that it's referring to the Namekians leaving for New Namek, since it follows directly after the explanation of that, while the battle with Freeza isn't mentioned anywhere nearby. And that is what the Daizenshuu 7 timeline goes with.

Okay, thank you. Viz's line is roughly the same, and I also get the same impression from both.

On an unrelated note, I just realized I was browsing "test.kanzentai.com". What's the deal with that?

What do you mean?

Well, I wanted to look through the manga guide, so I went to it from the links already in my history. I only noticed by chance that instead of being on http://www.kanzentai.com, I was on test.kanzentai.com, and everything looked like it did in 2010. I have no idea how I got there in the first place.

[dprez]

My only disagreement is how some people seem to think that when Cell is referred to 7 years later it somehow can mean him before his pre near death powerup or just merely the level he was fighting Goku at. I don't see very much credibility to that.

I disagree with this. The manga I'm seeing shows Gohan, then Vegeta and Goku only a few pages apart. Gohan looks the same every time he's super saiyan, in every panel he's in. Gohan appears this way while he fights Dabura and when Goku makes that statement. Could it mean that a possibly holding back Dabura was hiding a massive amount of power that equaled Ssj2 Kid Gohan, since Gohan was obviously weaker than was 7 years prior? I highly doubt it since Vegeta called him nothing, along with Goku saying he's no big deal. This would have to mean that Gohan was also SSj, which he appears to be if you ask me. Dabura couldn't even injure Gohan while Vegeta and Goku didn't fear his power in the least. How could that be if Dabura rivaled Cells zenkai Ssj2 power, that is arguably even stronger than a Ssj2 kid Gohan.

Dabura does not equal Ssj2 because of this, so when Goku compares their powers, he is actually talking about the Cell that FpSsj Gohan and Goku fought. This is actually very credible and reasonable due to a few reasons. That is the Cell Goku and Gohan fought while Ssj 7 years prior. This actually means something here. Gohan is Ssj when he fights Cell and Dabura. We also know that Gohan does not equal his Cell games self, so every form, base, Ssj, and Ssj2 are all weaker than they were 7 years prior. Stated by Vegeta just about every time he is introduced to Gohan after the time skip.

Goku was dead when Cell came back, and the only thing on his mind was that Gohan was still capable of defeating Cell. Seams to me like Goku was referring to the Cell he and his son fought before Ssj2 power arrived. Cell was always Cell before he got his freak zenkai that just gave him a free boost for nothing really. Goku didn't care about that power after Gohan defeated it. Cell was the power they went into facing at the beginning of the Cell games, the power his son had to go far beyond if they were going to survive. It also appears to me that Gohan is Ssj while Goku makes these claims and while Vegeta mocks his weakened power. I can easily see why Goku would compare Dabura to Cell before his zenkai.

[Kaboom]

I could turn that around and say that, from an in-universe perspective, "Cell is Cell, regardless of what level of power." We apply terms like "Imperfect" or "X-stage" Cell for him for our own convenience, but you wouldn't hear the heroes getting that specific. At the most, you've got more vague instances like Trunks telling Cell that he was "very powerful in [his] complete form," and even then only because it's important to that particular sub-plot.

But in the end, Cell is Cell. Whether Goku is specifically thinking of Cell at the level of power he fought, or when he went full-power to fight Gohan, or even when he came back from the "dead" stronger, it doesn't really matter. That entire general range is still "Cell." It doesn't have to be more specific than that.

[dprez]

Fair enough. I just think it must be a certain Cell Goku's talking about, based off of how I interpret what we're shown, and that it's really not as vague as some may think.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It is vague, though. Gokuu merely compares to Dabra to "Cell", not "the Cell that I fought", "the Cell that Gohan fought" or "the Cell after he recieved a near-death power-up". Just Cell.

I guess it all depends on whether or not you think Gohan was SS or SS2 against him. I personally have given up trying to make sense of this retarded arc, since the story tells me that Gohan was SS2 while the illustrations tell me that he was SS.

[dprez]

That's my point. The way I see it, Gohan is obviously Ssj1, so even if the quote just says "he's like Cell", which I suppose can easily be open to interpretation by some, it's still gotta be a certain Cell because of the power Dabura and Gohan seamed to display while this statement was made.

Also, I'm not so sure the story says Gohan was Ssj2 there and it only looked like he was Ssj1. I have done the debate to death as well and don't wanna get to into it, but I like to use that statement by Goku before he fights Vegeta to show that Gohan had yet to unleash his full power against Dabura.

Couldn't find it (Herms guide of awesomeness) but Goku just tells Gohan to get mad and use all his power. With this and Gohan appearing to be Ssj1 before, he wasn't using all his power then, and needs to to easily beat Dabrua. IMO every bit of his power is his Ssj2 self, which he didn't look like he was while fighting Dabura. Gohan later goes through mental gymnastics about not being able to use all his power when Boo's shell starts smoking, where he yet again appears with his Ssj1 aura, mere pages away from Goku and Vegeta with Ssj2 auras. The story makes it very clear the power they were using, and I believe the story also let's us know the kind of power Gohan was using, not to mention the art which is the easiest indicator if you ask me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, I don't want to get into it either, so let's just end it here before the inevitable derailment of this thread. I personally believe that the story tells me that Gohan was SS2, while the illustrations tell me that he was SS. Of course, everything is open to interpretation, and this is probably the worst written arc of DB, evidently showing Toriyama's fatigue IMO.

[dprez]

I understand, and I think we are agreeing to disagree here. Toriyama-sensei I think was having fun with this entire arc, leisurely writing the story as he drew the art, which can lead to many interpretations of, well... everything. I tend to believe he knew what he was doing and drawing, so to speak, and to trust my eyes. But hell, nobody knows for sure. Just a part of what makes Dragon Ball so mysterious.

[Fox666]

I guess it all depends on whether or not you think Gohan was SS or SS2 against him. I personally have given up trying to make sense of this retarded arc, since the story tells me that Gohan was SS2 while the illustrations tell me that he was SS.

I don't think the story tell us Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2. You can argue that he should use his strongest form, but that's different of the "story telling" it.

Both Gohan and Dabra have been instantly defeated by Majin Boo, while Vegeta on the other could fight back. Which for me show that a Super Saiyan 2 is on a complete different level from Gohan or Dabra. There is also Babidi telling Goku that "Vegeta tried the same thing" after he transformed in Super Saiyan 2. I suppose these aren't definitive proof, but are suggestive.

The idea of Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2 is mostly because Cell was stronger than Gohan in his Super Saiyan form at the Cell Games. And an even weaker Gohan was fighting evenly with someone who is supposed to be about as strong as Cell...

However I don't think Gohan need to be a Super Saiyan 2. Cell (before his self-destruction) has never been show to be far stronger than a full-power Super Saiyan 2, and Goku said Dabra was "probably about as strong" as Cell. I don't really have a problem with that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not just the fact that Gohan should've been using his strongest form, but the fact that Kaioshin tells Kibito that he wasn't around to see Gohan's "unbelievably tremendous power", which makes no sense because he obviously saw Gohan at his best during the Budokai if Gohan didn't use anything higher than Super Saiyan. That's more straight to the point than Goku's comparison.

Also, I think Gohan and Dabra being defeated by Boo while Vegeta does better just shows Vegeta's on a far different level, rather than Gohan and Dabra not being Super Saiyan 2 level. I think Majin Vegeta would thrash Super Saiyan 2 Gohan rather easily.

I think Gohan's a Super Saiyan there, but like Daimao, I've given up trying to make sense of the Bobbidi arc like forever ago.

[Saiga]

Not just the fact that Gohan should've been using his strongest form, but the fact that Kaioshin tells Kibito that he wasn't around to see Gohan's "unbelievably tremendous power", which makes no sense because he obviously saw Gohan at his best during the Budokai if Gohan didn't use anything higher than Super Saiyan. That's more straight to the point than Goku's comparison.

Also, I think Gohan and Dabra being defeated by Boo while Vegeta does better just shows Vegeta's on a far different level, rather than Gohan and Dabra not being Super Saiyan 2 level. I think Majin Vegeta would thrash Super Saiyan 2 Gohan rather easily.

I think Gohan's a Super Saiyan there, but like Daimao, I've given up trying to make sense of the Bobbidi arc like forever ago.

I think the tremendous power line is referring to the Kamehameha he used on Boo's shell. Dabra looked shocked by it as well.

[Fox666]

Not just the fact that Gohan should've been using his strongest form, but the fact that Kaioshin tells Kibito that he wasn't around to see Gohan's "unbelievably tremendous power", which makes no sense because he obviously saw Gohan at his best during the Budokai if Gohan didn't use anything higher than Super Saiyan. That's more straight to the point than Goku's comparison.

Not necessarily.

Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”