Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Jackal puFF » Mon May 07, 2012 2:32 pm


EDIT: I found something interesting. On the game Budokai Tenkaichi 3, I used Akkuman against Super Saiyan Goku (End). Went to max power, and shot a Devilmite beam at him. It took barely any of his health down. While once I tried Akkuman against Super Saiyan Vegeta (End), it took him down one whole bar of health. This has to mean something.
I tried it once on Adult Gohan, it took nearly half of a whole bar of health.
Lol! He had to have been thinking about Videl.. :wink:

But yeah I think Goku could still survive a Devilmite Beam.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Bussani » Mon May 07, 2012 8:39 pm

ChahikoDBZ wrote:Another example, This might be a little earlier in the series but, in the Freeza arc, Goku loses his best friend and explodes with anger, turning him into a Super Saiyan, at the end you still see him try to spare Freeza's life.
This is what I meant when I said that different people have their own ideas of what pure hearted means. Goku didn't spare the lives of bad guys as a kid and was still pure of heart, so whether he'd spared Freeza or not probably wouldn't make a difference.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Wasn't Genki Dama supposed to be able to be used only by pure people? :wink:
I think that was only said by Kuririn in a movie. The manga and the guides don't say any such thing, as far as I remember. The closest thing was probably that Gohan could bounce it back because he wasn't evil.
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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Beji » Mon May 07, 2012 9:04 pm

Nikkolas wrote:Normally I wouldn't bring up the games but this post plus the post above it just makes me remember how I went "...what?" when Perfect Cell used the Spirit Bomb as his ultimate in one of the games. It might have beeN BT3 actually...I can't recall.
It was in Budokai 3 so close. It was made of stupid energy :lol:

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Nikkolas » Mon May 07, 2012 9:39 pm

Beji wrote:
Nikkolas wrote:Normally I wouldn't bring up the games but this post plus the post above it just makes me remember how I went "...what?" when Perfect Cell used the Spirit Bomb as his ultimate in one of the games. It might have beeN BT3 actually...I can't recall.
It was in Budokai 3 so close. It was made of stupid energy :lol:
Cell saying give me that stupid energy was the best part of the move. :)

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Deep Thought » Wed May 09, 2012 4:14 pm

I think that Goku would be affected by the Devilmite Beam. I have this belief because I think that Goku became mildly corrupted over time, most prominently when he became a Super Sayajin, which I believe mediated the gap between his teachings on Earth (aka respect life, only use force when necessary, etc) and his primal Sayajin instincts. This might be a shady proposition but there's a lot of evidence to support it, particularly when it comes to Goku's willingness to kill.

- Goku wanting to finish Freeza off for good. He states this much to Trunks and we can pretty much assume that he'd stay true to his word. You could argue that this was the only thing that could be done to Freeza at this point, but Goku could just beaten him and his father to a pulp and allowed them to retreat, no harm done.

- When Android 20 and 19 destroy portions of the city, Goku yells "FOLLOW US!!!! WE'LL TEAR YOU TO PIECES!!!!". Awfully violent for someone who has no inclination towards murder, don't you think? It could have been out of anger, but Goku was still at his peak in anger against Vegeta and Nappa, both of whom had just murdered his friends, and he let them both live.

- Goku, rather hypocritically, telling Gohan to kill Cell and to not let him live long enough to do anything desperate.

- Goku killing Yakon. Some can argue that he's a monster, but he was capable of cognitive functions and rational thought, so I don't buy that.

- Goku killing Chibi Buu, although I might concede on this one since he didn't really have a choice.

I think that by becoming a Super Sayajin, Goku embraced a little bit of his Sayajin heritage, which he tried to distance himself from as much as possible. There is his insistence to be called "Goku," his renouncement of his brother (He literally says "I have no brother!" when Raditz makes his savagery known), and of course his behavior. Goku goes excessively out of his way to spare EVERYONE prior to becoming a Super Sayajin; Nappa (Goku just wounds him with the Kaioken, and he expressly tells Vegeta and Nappa to go home after that), Vegeta, Recoome (only knocks him out, expresses outrage when Vegeta obliterates him), Butta (same), Jeice (expresses outrage when Vegeta kills him), Captain Ginyu (Vegeta was about to crush frog-Ginyu but Goku talked him out of it), and Freeza. I think that Goku made a conscious effort not to succumb to murder, but I think the battle on Namek fundamentally changed him. There is him becoming a Super Sayajin, and him blasting Freeza. Remember, it wasn't until a year later that it was revealed that Freeza was still alive. That's an entire year where Goku needed to come to grips with the fact that he committed murder. I think that in that year, due to the influence of Super Sayajin, he desensitized himself to the murder, which would be easy to do when everyone, including God of the Cosmos, told him to murder Freeza before he powered up.

So, yes, the Devilmite Beam would affect Goku because he has the capacity to commit murder and murder is wrong.

Two points that I want to address. First point is that if Goku isn't pure than he can't ride Kinto'un and therefor Gohan can't either because, if anything, Gohan as a Super Sayajin 2 was even more violent-minded than Goku as a Super Sayajin. But with Gohan, we see more effort from him to distance himself from what he was in that transformation, hence his unwillingness to transform into it. By relegating his Super Sayajin 2 persona into a wholly separate compartment of his psyche, like a split personality, he maintained his purity. Goku, obviously, did no such thing.

Second point, why did Goku spare good Buu then? While I think that Goku became desensitized to murder, it would only be by a very small margin, just enough to taint his purity so that it changes from, say, "100% pure to "99%" pure. IF he has the capacity to commit murder, it's only as a very last resort, not a common occurrence. With that said, Goku's mentality pertaining to good Buu was absolutely correct; he is completely innocuous. Killing him would be like murdering an innocent person, and, like I said, I don't think Goku became comparable to his antithesis, Vegeta; a borderline-sociopathic person with a continuous urge to murder who became slightly purer over time.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Majin Boo » Wed May 09, 2012 4:26 pm

^ I don't understand half of your points. Goku killed people when he was younger, and how did he "commit murder"? Freeza got cut to pieces by his own hand (Goku even tried to warn him), and then the dumbass still tried to kill Goku after he was given some energy so that he could live. Saying Goku did anything wrong there is some messed up logic.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Deep Thought » Wed May 09, 2012 4:43 pm

Majin Boo wrote:^ I don't understand half of your points. Goku killed people when he was younger, and how did he "commit murder"? Freeza got cut to pieces by his own hand (Goku even tried to warn him), and then the dumbass still tried to kill Goku after he was given some energy so that he could live. Saying Goku did anything wrong there is some messed up logic.
As mentioned in the "Goku's Use of Lethal Force" topic, child Goku didn't really have an understanding of the value of life and the implications of murder, so that is excused due to naivety and ignorance. Adult Goku not only understands the value of human, but made a conscious effort not to murder, and (yes, even forcibly) "murdering" Freeza shattered his moral code, at least at the time. I'm not arguing that him killing Freeza immediately made him impure, just that it profoundly affected him to the degree that it changed his mentality and mindset. Goku kiled Freeza, but he really, really didn't want to, and being forced to wouldn't change that mentality any.

I don't care what anyone says, even if it was in self-defense, if they had to kill someone, it would affect them on some level, especially if it went against their entire moral character.

http://i.imgur.com/rtqlm.jpg

Look at his face in the middle panel and tell me that he's completely unscathed by having to kill Freeza. This was only made worse since he had to spend a year dealing with that. By himself.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:53 pm

I do believe King Kai once said Goku during SSJ was in an inner-blade sword or something like that within his nature.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by ChahikoDBZ » Wed May 09, 2012 9:18 pm

Deep Thought wrote: http://i.imgur.com/rtqlm.jpg

Look at his face in the middle panel and tell me that he's completely unscathed by having to kill Freeza. This was only made worse since he had to spend a year dealing with that. By himself.
Poor Goku. That page always made me feel so bad. :(
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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Saiga » Wed May 09, 2012 9:46 pm

Bullcrap, just because Goku killed some people when he had to doesn't mean he stopped being pure of heart. He killed Daimao and was still pure of heart then.
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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Nikkolas » Wed May 09, 2012 10:10 pm

Killing people wasn't the issue. It was letting them live because he was selfish and bloodthirsty.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by dprez » Wed May 09, 2012 10:13 pm

Nikkolas wrote:Killing people wasn't the issue. It was letting them live because he was selfish and bloodthirsty.
Or respected their lives enough to let them live. His only selfish wish was to challenge them again, not kill them.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Nikkolas » Wed May 09, 2012 10:15 pm

So he let a genocidal maniac who had just killed three of his friends go so he could fight him again.

...how is this pure and good again?

And of course there is how he threw his own son to Cell. Not exactly very noble or pure either.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Saiga » Wed May 09, 2012 10:17 pm

Gohan wanted to torture Cell, and the Boo saga shows that he's pure of heart. :roll:
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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by dprez » Wed May 09, 2012 10:19 pm

Nikkolas wrote:So he let a genocidal maniac who had just killed three of his friends go so he could fight him again..
That's why he is pure of heart. What kind of person who wasn't like Goku would let that guy go free. Exactly.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Fox666 » Wed May 09, 2012 10:26 pm

A Super Saiyan is a warrior with a pure heart, a Super Saiyan 2 is pure evil? :lol:

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by 012yArthur0 » Thu May 10, 2012 2:33 pm

Well, there are chances for both:

No:
- Goku always wanted to spare his enemies life, and he only killed them because there's nothing else to try.
- When Goku killed Buu, he asked for Porunga to resurrect him, yes, it may be only for the purpose of "we fight again someday" but it has a side note of letting him live twice.
- Goku may had asked to Gohan to kill Cell, however, he asked that to teach Gohan that were nothing they could do to fix Cell.

Yes:
- Super Saiyan broke his evil side when fighting Freeza, it was kinda obvious since he could just kill it with a Powerful attack instead of slapping around like that soon as he transformed. After all, Martial Arts didn't even had anything to be taken account when was all about power levels. (However, one of the Goku's unique treats is his Combat Experience that gives him a upper hand in fights, stated by Cell)
- Stated by Krillin in the Android#13 movie, Goku couldn't use Super Spirit Bomb as a Super Saiyan because he heart wasn't pure, but was full of rage. But since it was a OVA, it can be ignored. (Even if it's not a filler, it can be corrected because Goku controlled the SSJ transformation on the Cell Games, and he transformed while using Spirit Bomb on Kid buu, but since he already thrown it before transformation, I think it's unconcrete)


Anyway, about the small "Spirit Bomb" sub-topic, it made me think: The fact that Kid Buu not only took a spirit bomb in the face, but he was able to hold it and COULD bounce it back could mean that he wasn't evil but a mindless kid?

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Bussani » Thu May 10, 2012 9:28 pm

012yArthur0 wrote:Anyway, about the small "Spirit Bomb" sub-topic, it made me think: The fact that Kid Buu not only took a spirit bomb in the face, but he was able to hold it and COULD bounce it back could mean that he wasn't evil but a mindless kid?
I think it's more that he was just really, really strong. I mean, Freeza could "hold" the Genki Dama as well--he just wasn't strong enough to stop it.
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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by 012yArthur0 » Fri May 11, 2012 1:10 pm

dprez wrote:
Nikkolas wrote:So he let a genocidal maniac who had just killed three of his friends go so he could fight him again..
That's why he is pure of heart. What kind of person who wasn't like Goku would let that guy go free. Exactly.
Well, in a second way, Pure Heart can also mean stupidity. Or he was just being selfish for a good battle with him once again.

Oh well, I agree with what you say anyway.

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Re: Adult Goku vs. Devilmite Beam

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun May 13, 2012 11:02 am

Godo wrote:When he offered some naked pictures to Rou Kaioshin, it was merely from knowing how old men worked (like Bussani said).
He understands why Gohan and Vegeta are pissed at him (unlike before, when Gokuu tells Blooma, "What's the big deal? Just let him feel your pillows!", he later tells Gohan, "Come on! It's to save the Earth!" and is afraid when Vegeta angrily yells at him) for offering up their girlfriends, and now that he's an adult who knows about why breasts are so great and stuff (Gokuu asks the old Kaioushin if it's alright if Blooma's old, and mentions how Chi-Chi's "flat-chested"), he'd understand just why Blooma would object to being fondled by a stranger or merely someone she doesn't want to be fondled by.
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