Budokai combat mechanics vs. Tenkaichi combat mechanics

[Hitiro]

Hey guys,

The other day I was browsing Youtube and came across a video mentioning, the rumored, new HD game that is up on Walmart's online store and cduniverse.com. After watching the video I noticed in the comments section a bunch of people defending the Tenkaichi style of games and they were basically saying that BT3 is a more skilful and complicated game than B3. I have played both games myself and tend to disagree with their statements. While the Tenkaichi games feel more like the show I feel that they are just a simulation of what the combat is like in the Dragonball universe as opposed to the Budokai games which, I feel, could push the competitive aspect of combat.

Stepping towards our current gen games I feel that Raging Blast 2 has taken a step towards a better combat style, however it still has its shortcomings. In the same respect I feel that the game Shin Budokai - Another Road (for the PSP) has also taken a step up from the Budokai games on the PS2 and I feel that if any game were to be pushed into a competitive scene then it would be a DBZ game with this sort of combat style. At the moment I would say that the Tenkaichi style is the closest to being like the battles we see in the Dragonball universe. However, because the Budokai style focuses a little less on making the combat close to those type of battles and, instead, sticks to the more conventional route of the fighting game genre; I believe it is closer to being played at a competitive level. So what do you feel about these two different approaches to the combat mechanics? Which combat style do you fans feel is closest to being played at a competitive level? Do you feel that either one should be considered for a competitive level of play like other fighting games such as Street Fighter or Blazblue? Also, do you think that either of these styles of combat would need to sacrifice their ties with the universe(making them less like games you would consider in the style of the Dragonball universe) further for them to work at a competitive level?

[Savage68]

Well, it's pretty apparent to me that the Budokai (specifically Infinite World specifically) engine is more suited to competitive play. The Sparking/Tenkaichi games are chock full of infinite combos and free counters to those infinites that make the game needlessly tedious as you grow more skilled at playing them.

[dario03]

I would say that Budokai style has a better chance of getting a competive fan base because its closer to the traditional style which already has followings. However either one could get a following. I think for a non competitive gaming series to gain a competitive following would require a game with good balance, a good combo system, and a deep meta game. It can't be a game that doesn't evolve, there needs to be enough variety in the gameplay so that there isn't just one play style or set of moves for certain characters that will always win.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

I'm in the Budokai boat(surprise, surprise) when it comes to the better combat mechanics. I'm not saying Tenkaichi's mechanics suck or that Budokai comes anywhere close to complex; however I do think Budokai makes for better competitive play. Granted Budokai 3 can be a bit on the simpler side of things in terms of specials and so forth but I was playing Budokai 2 the other day and I forgot how fun it was. There are like two, maybe three different ways to pull off something like a Kamehameha or you could just hit forward circle; allowing for newbies to compete but a reward to those who use the combos instead. The best examples of what these games can be come from the Shin Budokai games and even Burst Limit. Granted it's simplified but there is still a nice balance to everything.

[NECPS]

I like the way things are going the path of strategy like ultimate tenkaichi.
It was not all that strategic, some kind of luck and stuff,
but in the end no one can deny, the way it puts your worries on
"how much ki do you have, now you can only defend.." or
"spirit high, seven degrees, ultimate blast - Finally!"

I used to like budokai, but it was not fast enough compared to anime
then they create tenkaichi, which was so fast that you couldn´t even fight seriously, just blast.

Some nice improvement on ultimate would be great. I would keep it going.

[DBZ Mick]

While I'm no fighting game buff, I'd say the Budokai games for sure. All those cancel combos and such...

The Tenkaichi games have too many broken moves...

[mysticboy]

Budokai. However, Tenkaichi can indeed be played at a competitive level if you get people that know what they're doing

[Titan]

Tenkaichi series by far.

[Super Saiyajin Luffy]

I will take the 3rd option, Super DBZ.
Gameplay-wise I prefer DIMPS DBZ engine out of these 2, but I think, it still can be improved in several ways.
Spike DBZ-engine (not counting UT/UB) has some nice visuals and interesting concepts, but the rush-Supers and the Perfect Smashes just aren't good ideas for a good game. And everyone sharing cloned movesets and animation doesn't really help either...

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I agree with you wholeheartedly- Shin Budokai is king; Budokai, even at a tournament level, usually devolves into one-sided combos with teleports and teleport-guards in between, since the game gives you almost no way to respond to combo once it's first couple hits connect. Shin Budokai has enough movement and defense options to keep that from constantly happening unless the skill gap is enormous- keep in mind I haven't played any of the games using that style in that way, so if anyone has actual experience, shoot my fish barrel.

I do really enjoy Tenkaichi's system, and they most certainly can be played on a competitive level, but even their legitimate advanced techniques boil down to expert evasion, stealing the first hit (Step-ins, mainly), and indeed infinite combos. Never played T3, but it sounds like Spike tried to balance ridiculous offense by adding ridiculous defense and nerfing one move (Rolling hammer), which isn't how you go about doing that, but then does Spike really have the time to do anything else?

But as for tournaments and skill? Shin Budokai. But I would love to see a legitimate Tenkaichi Tournament (Yay pun).

[DonieZ]

A tournament for a Tenkaichi game? Get out of here. The day that happens the day the world falls to the apocolapse.

Tenkaichi isn't competitive worthy, and the characters are all too similar for the matches to be that interesting. There's a lot less to take into consideration when playing and practising with these games than real tournament fighters. I think Tenkaichi needs to seriously hit the bucket.

[NitroEX]

The fact that Tenkaichi games require split screen for vs matches just puts me off the idea of it being a truly competitive game.

[dbboxkaifan]

I really like Tenkaichi Tag Team on the PSP for the 2 Vs. 2 battles, it plays really smoothly and sort of flawless for me.

But Burst Limit still beats Spike's DBZ games.

The fact that Tenkaichi games require split screen for vs matches just puts me off the idea of it being a truly competitive game.

How about that thing that requires glasses and it's subjectively expensive which makes split screen into one screen? lol. I'm talking about 3D which you've figured out.

[DBZAOTA482]

Budokai

/Thread

[012yArthur0]

Well, BOTH actually can be taken in competitive, but Infinite World is better than Budokai, then let's just use IW.
Tenkaichi 3 is a nice game, despite many people complaining about the game have "Same Characters but different skins", which is somewhat invalid. Sure, all melee attacks are similar, but punching and kicking in a 2D is also is, and they vary of speed and power, while Tenkaichi Melee varies often on strings and number of hits.

Competitive gaming with BT3 is most notably noted by his Reflects and combo strings. It's hard to keep remembering the Combo string and how to counter it (Be Vanishing or be Z-Counter) and character is uniquier than you think. SSJ2 Gohan is a broken melee fighter, while SSJ2 Goku is a powerhouse (Not faster hits than Gohan but it has 2 heavy finishes well placed) While SSJ2 Vegeta is the most ruthless melee fighter in the game, aside of being the best "Energy Ki barrage'r" as well.

All they do is spam!

Learn to dodge it, then.

All of them just throw Kamehamehas! They also used other moves, why they didn't put it here?

Simply put, Kamehameha was the "most used" move in the anime. Turtle Style students used it, and Goku sons as well. Buu and Cell used it because they copied it. It won't make sense NOT putting them actually.
About unique moves, a lot of them was situational, and their was used only once or two times, while BT3 try to keep universal with this question "What moves X character would do against Y character?" so it basically means that it would use the simpler and the most efficient ones, like, Kamehamehas.

But yes, a veriety in the graphics could be cool. Only a few actually have some uniqueness, but It's sad that Ultimate Gohan Kamehameha wasn't "eletric" like the Anime.

Infinite World is a more competitive B3 and Shin Budokai, period. I think it was clearly made to be one. a lot of characters got boosted, a lot got nerfed, and it's way faster and more reflexive than before. If you guys heard of Cancels, you know that is the bread and burter of the game, but getting right is though and very frustrating at the first time.

All in all, both games is good for competitive, but I rather IW just because.

[DonieZ]

No, the Tenkaichi-styled games cannot be played in very high levels of competivity, and they can never be compared to fighters with real depth in the genre. Also, each character isn't as disctinctive to another as characters are in the top fighters. Playing with Goku feels like playing with Frieza, and playing with Chatuzu feels like playing with Kid Buu, the game is shallow as hell as well as generic. To keep it short, you don't have to really, if at all, alter your tactics or play-style when battling different characters, as you would in other games, but instead each fight feels the same and is the same.

The Budokai-styled games are better, however are moreorless casual fighting games; they can be played competively to an extent, however the system is too linear which doesn't help for a variety of possibilities in a fight. The fact that the games mainly consist of memorising combos/cancel-sets and doing the same combos over and over again, with one way to begin attacking; which result in matches possibly being a bore to watch. I think BL was heading the right way, since it seemed to be trying to introduce some new depth, such as attacks which could be noted as 'mid-range' (again that's all the extra depth that game had = not much variety), although unfortunately that series didn't have a chance to show what else they could do with it.

The best and most competitive DBZ fighter there has been since last-gen is Super DBZ. That game had a lot more depth than any other of these DBZ fighters, it had characters which were very unique from each other and required you to think about the manner in which you fought.

[012yArthur0]

No, the Tenkaichi-styled games cannot be played in very high levels of competivity, and they can never be compared to fighters with real depth in the genre. Also, each character isn't as disctinctive to another as characters are in the top fighters. Playing with Goku feels like playing with Frieza, and playing with Chatuzu feels like playing with Kid Buu, the game is shallow as hell as well as generic. To keep it short, you don't have to really, if at all, alter your tactics or play-style when battling different characters, as you would in other games, but instead each fight feels the same and is the same.

The Budokai-styled games are better, however are moreorless casual fighting games; they can be played competively to an extent, however the system is too linear which doesn't help for a variety of possibilities in a fight. The fact that the games mainly consist of memorising combos/cancel-sets and doing the same combos over and over again, with one way to begin attacking; which result in matches possibly being a bore to watch. I think BL was heading the right way, since it seemed to be trying to introduce some new depth, such as attacks which could be noted as 'mid-range' (again that's all the extra depth that game had = not much variety), although unfortunately that series didn't have a chance to show what else they could do with it.

The best and most competitive DBZ fighter there has been since last-gen is Super DBZ. That game had a lot more depth than any other of these DBZ fighters, it had characters which were very unique from each other and required you to think about the manner in which you fought.

I could barrage you with videos showing competitive BT3 as well as uniqueness between characters, but I'm afraid I'm cannot (unless the moderators could let me do so), so I let it be. The characters difference may not be that "disctinctive", but that low variation makes a big roll in competitive gaming.

The fact that "It's too close to each other" came from the fact that Combo strings is easy to do. What I mean with that? Simple. Every character has the same combo strings, which usually leads to a lot of combos. However, Characters also has B1's that keeps them more variated, as well as different amount of hits and different signature set-ups, aside of Potaras to customization.

I can agree with B3 mechanique, although, to archieve that level takes a lot of time. Did you ever saw someone using GT Vegeta in IW? He could be the best character in the game if somebody had a tireless finger to do the cancel barrage he is capable to. And ironically, Yamcha is the best in IW, believe it or not.

I never played Super DBZ, but it seems interesting. And lol, Goku got mad and he uses his own Shoryuken? I know Goku can learn attacks fast, but not to make a "cheapo copy" like that

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

^ The problem Tenkaichi runs into is it has all the means to make characters varied, it just doesn't have enough. See characters that have a combo ending move (hard punch, triple kick, etc.) for multiple basic hits and Blast 1's with different names but identical effects, and just bad Blast 1's in general.

[Jackal puFF]

Tenkaichi is really fun if both you and your opponent know what you're doing. Budokai is kind of the same deal. It's somewhat easier though.

[012yArthur0]

^ The problem Tenkaichi runs into is it has all the means to make characters varied, it just doesn't have enough. See characters that have a combo ending move (hard punch, triple kick, etc.) for multiple basic hits and Blast 1's with different names but identical effects, and just bad Blast 1's in general.

Fact is, it's just take like a 3D fighting game. naruto and many others follows this same aspect. One button to do a combo regardless if it is a punch or a kick,and easy combos by just pressing the button Z amount of times. However, the combat is deep, and there are transformation that change the character style.

Please guys, don't take it offensive, but I would like that people would stop looking at this game superficially. Any game have a competitive system, some more noticeable than others, but still competitive.