How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Super Vegetto]

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P3.2-4
Goku: “Is he amazing?...”
Kaioshin: “Of course…He’s the king of the Dark Demon Realm, after all…One of you people is probably the #1 in this world, but in the other world, the world of demons, Dabra is absolutely on top…”
Kuririn: “Th-the king of the Demon Realm, you say?...There’s a world like that?...S-so he’s probably an incredibly dangerous opponent, right…!?”

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P5.1-3
Kaioshin: “At any rate, it was a big miscalculation that Dabra is here. A combo of Babidi and Dabra…”
Vegeta: “Are you trying to say that our chances of victory have fallen considerably?”
Kaioshin: “…”

Gohan is with them. You get it ?

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

Everyone confirms that Cells ki is like entire Earth shaking. Its pretty much says FP Perfect Cell > Initial SSJ2 Enraged Gohan.

During Cells FP kamehameha everyone thinks that they lost. I'm wondering why ? Didnt they senced Gohans ki is stronger than FP Perfect Cell? Ofc that they didnt because its FP Perfect Cell > Initial SSJ2 Gohan transormed.

[dprez]

You're taking those quotes far to literal.

It was the most powerful Kamehameha any of them had ever seen aimed right at the earth. Of course they'd be freaking out.

As for Kaioshin, I'll refer you to DBZAOTA482's signature.

[Super Vegetto]

This is where panic starts and there is no sign of so called powerful kamehameha that is aiming on Gohan.

For Kaioshin is proven that he is only extra carefull. He knows about Gohans strenght, yet he doesnt know about Pui-Pui.
Why ? Because no one knowed how much Pui-Pui could be strong.

With logic where Kaioshin is idiot, Gohan was never SSJ2 and yet he says to Kibito that he didnt saw enormeus power he saw against Buus shell.

So no Kaioshin is good when it comes to compering strenght he saw or already knows. He is bad in sencing when he doesnt know how strong is someone.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

With logic where Kaioshin is idiot, Gohan was never SSJ2 and yet he says to Kibito that he didnt saw enormeus power he saw against Buus shell.

But Kaioshin is an idiot, and everything indicates that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 outside of the Tenkaichi Budokai...

[dprez]

Except they can feel the ki building up as Cell charges the kamehameha.

It's been shown in the manga, and explained to you here that Kaioshin's ki sensing ability is about as reliable as Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball memory.

With logic where Kaioshin is idiot, Gohan was never SSJ2 and yet he says to Kibito that he didnt saw enormeus power he saw against Buus shell.

But Kaioshin is an idiot, and everything indicates that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 outside of the Tenkaichi Budokai...

This to.

[Super Vegetto]

With logic where Kaioshin is idiot, Gohan was never SSJ2 and yet he says to Kibito that he didnt saw enormeus power he saw against Buus shell.

But Kaioshin is an idiot, and everything indicates that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 outside of the Tenkaichi Budokai...

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

Whait didnt Kibito saw Gohans unbelievably tremendous power ?

[dprez]

Kaioshin was speaking of the over all abilities of the three saiyans that Kibito didn't get to see. Kaioshin also heard Goku tell Gohan to get angry, that way he can't lose to anybody. He witnessed Gohan fight Dabura while not at full strength, meaning he has even more power hidden, and Gohan's comments on how he should be able to handle Boo if he uses all his power, basically everything that the saiyans did after Kibito was killed completely stunned Kaioshin. Sure Kibito saw Gohans Ssj2 power, but he never got to see the saiyans in action, and hear them boast about how easy this challenge that Kibito and Kaioshin feared so much, actually was to them. Kibito saw SSj2 Gohan. Kibito didn't see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. I can see how you would take that as literally meaning Kaioshin saw a Ssj2 Gohan stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan Kibito saw, but I do not believe this is the case. That rather vague quote cannot be taken so literal.

Kaioshin's quote does not automatically mean Gohan was Ssj2 against Boo. Kaioshin knows of Gohan's enormous hidden power at this point. He heard Vegeta and Goku speak of how he was stronger back in the day, and how his anger could erupt him to a level of power far beyond what Kaioshin was witnessing. He now understands that these saiyans have a ton of power in reserve, and Gohan possibly has the most. Really not even that, only because Goku is dead and Vegeta is evil, so his power is their only hope. All Kaioshin knows is that Gohan actually had power inside of him that could allow him to easily beat Dabura and challenge Fat Boo. Gohan never did either of these things so I don't know, I guess that's why Kaioshin is training Gohan with the Z sword.

Without any visual or more direct textual evidence during the time of Gohan's alleged Ssj2 appearance against Boo, it's hard to use that quote about the incredibly powerful saiyans to prove Gohan was Ssj2. Kibito didn't get to see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. He did see SSj2 Gohan, but he did not see him fight, nor get to understand his true capabilities. We also can't put to much faith in these guys ki sensing abilities. Even after seeing Ssj2 Gohan, they still feared the likes of Dabura and Pui Pui...

Taking into account those two quotes from Kaioshin, I see too much telling me he was just a regular SSj. Still incredibly powerful compared to Kaioshin and Kibito. Add in what Kaioshin learned of Gohan's true abilities, and the over all incredible powers of these saiyans, then what he says to Kibito makes perfect sense even if Gohan was not a Ssj2 against Boo's shell, which he does not appear to be.

[Super Vegetto]

Except they can feel the ki building up as Cell charges the kamehameha.

It's been shown in the manga, and explained to you here that Kaioshin's ki sensing ability is about as reliable as Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball memory.

With logic where Kaioshin is idiot, Gohan was never SSJ2 and yet he says to Kibito that he didnt saw enormeus power he saw against Buus shell.

But Kaioshin is an idiot, and everything indicates that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 outside of the Tenkaichi Budokai...

This to.

Whait what ? You do realize that you sad ki for kamehameha > SSJ2 Gohan. There is no panic if Gohan inital transformation without powering up is stronger than FP Perfect Cell. Gohan used fast power up and complity owned Cell.

Btw you do realize that Vegeta is suprised that Gohan made even bigger kamehameha. Why is he surprised if it is SSJ2 Gohan from begining > FP Perfect Cell.

[Super Vegetto]

Kaioshin was speaking of the over all abilities of the three saiyans that Kibito didn't get to see. Kaioshin also heard Goku tell Gohan to get angry, that way he can't lose to anybody. He witnessed Gohan fight Dabura while not at full strength, meaning he has even more power hidden, and Gohan's comments on how he should be able to handle Boo if he uses all his power, basically everything that the saiyans did after Kibito was killed completely stunned Kaioshin. Sure Kibito saw Gohans Ssj2 power, but he never got to see the saiyans in action, and hear them boast about how easy this challenge that Kibito and Kaioshin feared so much, actually was to them. Kibito saw SSj2 Gohan. Kibito didn't see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. I can see how you would take that as literally meaning Kaioshin saw a Ssj2 Gohan stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan Kibito saw, but I do not believe this is the case. That rather vague quote cannot be taken so literal.

Kaioshin's quote does not automatically mean Gohan was Ssj2 against Boo. Kaioshin knows of Gohan's enormous hidden power at this point. He heard Vegeta and Goku speak of how he was stronger back in the day, and how his anger could erupt him to a level of power far beyond what Kaioshin was witnessing. He now understands that these saiyans have a ton of power in reserve, and Gohan possibly has the most. Really not even that, only because Goku is dead and Vegeta is evil, so his power is their only hope. All Kaioshin knows is that Gohan actually had power inside of him that could allow him to easily beat Dabura and challenge Fat Boo. Gohan never did either of these things so I don't know, I guess that's why Kaioshin is training Gohan with the Z sword.

Without any visual or more direct textual evidence during the time of Gohan's alleged Ssj2 appearance against Boo, it's hard to use that quote about the incredibly powerful saiyans to prove Gohan was Ssj2. Kibito didn't get to see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. He did see SSj2 Gohan, but he did not see him fight, nor get to understand his true capabilities. We also can't put to much faith in these guys ki sensing abilities. Even after seeing Ssj2 Gohan, they still feared the likes of Dabura and Pui Pui...

Taking into account those two quotes from Kaioshin, I see to much telling me he was just a regular SSj. Still incredibly powerful compared to Kaioshin and Kibito. Add in what Kaioshin learned of Gohan's true abilities, and the over all incredible powers of these saiyans, then what he says to Kibito makes perfect sense even if Gohan was not a Ssj2 against Boo's shell, which he does not appear to be.

This is why you nead to say that Kaioshin is idiot when it comes to compering powers. Kaioshin senced SSJ2 Gohan world tournament powers and was wondering if he can stop him, so dont try to make me change my opinion because it doesnt work like that.

He senced SSJ2 Gohans power against Buus shell and that pretty much clears it all.

Dont forget he can sence power pretty good and he even stated it.

[dprez]

.Dont forget he can sence power pretty good and he even stated it.

Show me please.

Also, I would like you to tell me why you think Gohan was Ssj2 against Dabura and Boo's shell.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

Whait didnt Kibito saw Gohan unbelievably tremendous power ?

So? He can have an unbelievably tremendous power in normal Super Saiyan too... Gohan going SSJ2 in front of Kibito doesn't mean that he saw his full power. Kaioshin however saw Gohan's abilities & skills, and his full power in Super Saiyan in action, instead of a standing Super Saiyan 2. This doesn't proves that he was Super Saiyan 2 during his fight with Dabra or when trying to destroy Boo's egg or anywhere else. The manga always has a different aura for every Super Saiyan form. SSJ2 also makes Gohan's hairstyle longer and more similar to his SSJ2 hairstyle in Cell Games. Gohan's aura & hairstyle clearly show in the manga that he is NOT a Super Saiyan 2. That's what the guidebooks support, and that's what I support too.

[Super Vegetto]

.Dont forget he can sence power pretty good and he even stated it.

Show me please.

Also, I would like you to tell me why you think Gohan was Ssj2 against Dabura and Boo's shell.

Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”

Yes its magnificent energy. If he cant sence, he wouldnt say anything about Gohan having magnificent energy.

I would like you to tell me why is Gohan never SSJ2 after world tournament so that i can explain it why he was SSJ2 after world tournament.


DBZGTKOSDH

Man there is no point in telling that to Kibito if Kibito actualy saw and senced SSJ2 Gohan on world tournament. He even says that he didnt see power like that.

Its SSJ2 > Gohan max SSJ so it doesnt make sence that Kaioshin is impresed with Gohan on Buus shell.

Guidbook says Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura. Goku says that Dabura is Perfect Cell level. If Gohan is SSJ against Dabura he would be destroyed. Think about it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Its SSJ2 > Gohan max SSJ

Are you sure for this? Remember, SSJ2 is SSJ x2.

Guidbook says Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura.

Proof please?

[Super Vegetto]

Guidbook says Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura.

Proof please?

This last daizenshuu, volume 7, is a grand DragonBall encyclopedia. Each time I think that the whole staff which makes these books has a really tough time of it, but this time seemed even more hellish. They truly did a great job.

I'm intensely forgetful, so despite being the author there are many things I don't understand anymore. It can be quite a pain, so I think it would have really been a life-saver if this grand encyclopedia had been around during serialization. It's a little frustrating.

Well at any rate, my sincerest thanks to the staff, and to all DragonBall fans.

– Toriyama Akira



Dabra
King of the Demon Realm
History

Though his exact age is unknown, he has lived for over 300 years.
First Appears

Chapter 446
Characteristics

The man who boasts the greatest power in the Demon Realm, a place said to exist on the opposite side of the universe from where Goku and co. live. He had his heart manipulated by Babidi, and become his underling. On top of having a battle power equal to Cell's, he is also skilled in magic. After dying, Enma Daio judged that as king of the Dark Demon Realm he would be happy in Hell, and so he sent him to Heaven.
Techniques

Petrifaction, various forms of magic
Battles

A fairly even battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Afterwards, he sensed that the revived Majin Buu was dangerous, and tried to defeat him, but was turned into a cookie and eaten. Despite being the strongest in the Demon Realm, feared even by Kaioshin, he came to an extremely pathetic end...

So AT considers daizenshuu 7 a great job and it says Dabura fought SSJ2 Gohan.

[dprez]

Akira Toriyama's art says otherwise. Hell, even the story does ( to me, at least ).

[Super Vegetto]

Akira Toriyama's art says otherwise. Hell, even the story does ( to me, at least ).

If we go by art AT made big mistake in story. If we go by story and what is stated AT made big mistake in art.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And in Daizenshuu 2, it says otherwise, and here too. The manga shows otherwise... It's 3 vs 1.

[012yArthur0]

Akira Toriyama's art says otherwise. Hell, even the story does ( to me, at least ).

If we go by art AT made big mistake in story. If we go by story and what is stated AT made big mistake in art.

If I remember, Vegeta was SSj2 in the "Buu vs the Universe" on the last battle of DBZ, however, he didn't had any sparks, and his hair wasn't spikier/bigger.

Not only that, but I saw on BT3 biography that pikkon fought against SSj2 Goku. It is wrong or AT really likes to screw the differences a lot? It's not that hard to draw lightnings.

[dprez]

Well, I guess he made a big mistake in the story ( although I don't see it...) because it's clear that Gohan was not like Goku and Vegeta were while they were fighting each other.

Although, I think the Daizenshuu 7 made the big mistake, and at that point Akira Toriyama had already forgotten so much, he wouldn't know anyway if Gohan was Ssj1 or Ssj2, and would just take the guide books word for it...

[Super Vegetto]

And in Daizenshuu 2, it says otherwise, and here too. The manga shows otherwise... It's 3 vs 1.

xD i use logic first not guidbooks. Its manga > guidbooks and manga is pretty good in statments.



This is budokai tenkaichi so it doesnt count.

HIGH SCHOOL ERA
SUPER SAIYAN 2
First Appears: Vol. 37



During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Btw where ?