Did Dragonball go downhill when it became DBZ?

[Aoi]

I'm pretty sure the Mafuba kills you if you successfully finish it. About the rest of the opinions, I don't agree with about 95% of them. From what most people wrote, it seems like the majority of you hate the franchise. Toriyama, early on in the series, made it clear that you're not supposed to over think many aspects of this series. For god's sake, Tien grows 2 arms as a technique during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. What makes Dragon Ball work is the contrast. You have this enormously goofy, seemingly cliche, weird show about fighting ....that's also wonderfully touching, and serious when it needs to be....all at the same time. I personally find Goku's character as an adult fascinating.

[Aoi]

In addition: I do appreciate how Toriyama kept close tabs on the characters and wrote about their techniques/progress with a lot of detail. However, on the other hand, I adore how he takes these great leaps in the narrative in order to make the story GREAT (when it just would have been satisfactory at best). Case in point: Cell returning blew my mind as a teen, as it did in my mid 20s when I saw it again. Trunks killing Frieza was wonderful for me. They're just such a ballsy twists that adds another dimension to the story.

It is a beautiful story: Goku sacrificing himself and apologizing.......all because of everyone else's selfishness and egos (Krillin w/ 18, Vegeta with Cell and Gohan with Cell). Goku's character was 100% redeemed in that moment.

PS- Outside of GT, the only "Ki heavy" fight in the series was the Frieza vs. Vegeta/Piccolo/Gohan/Krillin/Goku fight. The rest of the series easily goes back to the martial arts core we all loved from the original DB series. In fact some of the best fights in Dragon Ball, IMO, occur after the Frieza arc.

[TripleRach]

But if I had to pick an exact moment, it would be when Goku landed on Namek.

And then he almost immediately gets sidelined again. This isn't particularly a reply to your comment, but that's one of the biggest reasons for my theory that Toriyama just didn't know what to do with Gokuu anymore. "Hmm, maybe I'll throw him in an aquarium for a few hours while everyone else gets smacked around by Freeza. Then he can have another big comeback!" At least before that he would actually do things during his absence, like chase monkeys.

On that note, I guess there were a few other opportunities for him to do something interesting while removed from the main crises (Yardrat, Room of Spirit and Time, afterlife, doing something more with SSJ3 or the Fusion training...), but Toriyama seemed more concerned with just getting rid of him. Even the build up to Gokuu vs Vegeta II resulted in a really short fight in the manga, and Gokuu just got knocked unconscious in favor of more Vegeta fun time.

From what most people wrote, it seems like the majority of you hate the franchise.

Not at all. If I hated it, I wouldn't care enough to analyze it so much. I still love the series in spite of whatever flaws I find.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

If you like the first six arcs brand of random schlock over the latter four, sure.

It's not like pre-Z DB didn't have blatant ass pulls (Ultra God Water, oh lordie) or fights decided by loosely-defined superior combat strength.

SonMatthew and Tony probably grabbed my thoughts best; every arc had stupid points, and some more than others, but the bigger issue is that the Z-era largely lost the randomness and perhaps creativity that some of the Dragon Ball fights had. One of the things I love about Buu, he sort of brought that back, and showed that it wasn't necessarily incompatible with planet-busting fights.

I'm really going to have to bookmark this thread because I know it's going to be useful as hell when I get to this section of DBD. A lot of the stuff I've said already I had been planning to say for years in DBD, but some of the points brought up by TripleRach, PiccoloDaimao, TonytheTiger and others are pretty amazing and aspects I'd never even though of before! I love this thread!

Called it.

[Bussani]

I'm pretty sure the Mafuba kills you if you successfully finish it.

Well, Kame-sennin died despite not "successfully" completing it, as such. Also, neither Kami nor Piccolo died when Kami got sealed by it, and if Kami had died from using it, that would have killed Piccolo, making it...kind of a weird way to commit suicide...?

Anyway, I agree with Piccolo Daimao. Despite saying that he couldn't leave Piccolo to die because it would also mean the death of Kami, he also simply ignores the suggestion of sealing him because, in his own words, he "didn't want to lose his arch-enemy yet." That's just how Goku is, and to be honest, it's one of the things I like about him.

[son veku]

Well I think Goku didn't kill him because of Kami, but gave him a senzu because he wanted to fight him again someday

[Saiga]

Well, Kame-sennin died despite not "successfully" completing it, as such. Also, neither Kami nor Piccolo died when Kami got sealed by it, and if Kami had died from using it, that would have killed Piccolo, making it...kind of a weird way to commit suicide...?

I have always wondered about this.

[Fin]

From what most people wrote, it seems like the majority of you hate the franchise. Toriyama, early on in the series, made it clear that you're not supposed to over think many aspects of this series.

I don't see a lot of over thinking here. Nobody did all their analysis first and then concluded 'I am obligated to dislike this part of the show.' The dislike comes first, and the analysis is people trying to figure out what doesn't work for them. And obviously we like something about he franchise, or we wouldn't spend so much time posting on a Dragon Ball forum.

[Akumaito Beam]

Y'know it really sucks when you think you have a bunch of smart unique opinions only to find out everyone has known your revelation for years.

Dragon Ball rounded itself out SO nicely. Muten Roshi had always warned Son about letting power go to his head and that's exactly what happened after he drank the full potential unleashing Super Holy Water and defeated the KI mastering demon from hell that could level a city in a single swipe of his hand. I heard once that Goku seemed really out of character when he went up to Kami's palace but I think that his smug over confident persona was completely intentional. Mr.Popo smacked him into place and basically told him he was the strongest person on Earth and still didn't know shit. Then the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai rolled around and Piccolo had incredible strength but Goku was able to beat him, making good use of his cleverness and KI mastery that he learned from Kami.Running head first into battle worked for so long but he found out that wasn't enough, it's really reminiscent of button mashing Street Fighter 2 and knowing how to Hadoken and Dragon Punch and then getting your ass handed to you by truly skilled players. THAT'S why I feel like it made sense for Goku to keep Piccolo around, Piccolo was the only one who could rival Goku even slightly at this point and Goku being Goku needed someone to use as a sparring partner. Goku was at level 100 and he needed someone else at least at level 90 to put up a good, fun fight. It's an eternal struggle between two world shattering forces.

Then the Saiyan arc rolled around and it seemed like a complete reboot. Goku suddenly had this random ass-pull of an origin story and suddenly he could gain more power and he never had to use strategy and the sound mind he gained from Kami's training again. It went into this repetitive nonsense and suddenly everyone and their grandma were shooting world destroying laser beams and zipping around the air with zero training or effort.

[Bussani]

Goku suddenly had this random ass-pull of an origin story and suddenly he could gain more power and he never had to use strategy and the sound mind he gained from Kami's training again. It went into this repetitive nonsense and suddenly everyone and their grandma were shooting world destroying laser beams and zipping around the air with zero training or effort.

I'm not going to say I think that's wrong, but I think it's exaggerated, personally. Goku continued to be one of the best fighters in the series because he remembered the things Kami taught him. His approach to things is so different from, say, Vegeta's, and we see that in the way he and Gohan trained to fight Cell. Goku often had this calm, spiritual, "I know what I'm doing" feel around him, and I'm pretty sure that began right after Kami and Popo's training.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, Kame-sennin died despite not "successfully" completing it, as such. Also, neither Kami nor Piccolo died when Kami got sealed by it, and if Kami had died from using it, that would have killed Piccolo, making it...kind of a weird way to commit suicide...?

I have always wondered about this.

Either it's the fact that God's, well, a god (whether or not you take his statement of "A god cannot commit suicide!" literally) and is therefore immune to the Mafuuba's life-threatening effects, he's so much stronger than Mutaito and Muten Roushi that it's unable to kill him, or it depends on how well you've mastered the technique. Mutaito apparently invented the technique but, like with Kaiou and his Kaiouken, may not have been able to master it. The latter's the same for Muten Roushi, who may've seen his master perform and only try it for real against Daimaou when he was revived.

At least, in the anime, Tenshinhan didn't die when he used it. As an in-universe explanation, Kame-sennin himself mentioned at the 22nd TB that Tenshinhan probably would've won in their match if they'd continued, and unlike with Kame-sennin, Tenshinhan actually uses more power against Gokuu since he was trying to kill him under Tsuru-sennin's orders as revenge for Tao Pai Pai's death. So he's probably stronger than Kame-sennin, thus able to survive using the Mafuuba. Or maybe, since Tenshinhan's presumably more talented than them (he picked it up the "easy" Kamehameha, firing an even more potent one than Yamcha or Kuririn's, after seeing it once, and learned the technique in, like, only a few days), he'd mastered it more than his predecessors and control the ki or whatever. He could survive something like the Kikouhou, at least.

[Zarathustra]

Dragonball went downhill during the Boo Arc. The World Tournament bit at the beginning was great but everything after (and including) the Fusions and all that shit was terrible, especially the castration of Gohan by nerfing him, making him the strongest for a shitton of episodes to then just dispose of him..

Boo Arc had potential, it could have been a worthy finale but it was just shite.

[Aoi]

Dragonball went downhill during the Boo Arc. The World Tournament bit at the beginning was great but everything after (and including) the Fusions and all that shit was terrible, especially the castration of Gohan by nerfing him, making him the strongest for a shitton of episodes to then just dispose of him..

Boo Arc had potential, it could have been a worthy finale but it was just shite.

I personally love the Buu arc and think it is the definitive finale to the Dragon Ball legend. HOWEVER, from what I usually see, it seems most people prefer the Cell arc's ending as the best ending to the series. ...with everything after being a "bonus" of sorts

[Aoi]

Y'know it really sucks when you think you have a bunch of smart unique opinions only to find out everyone has known your revelation for years.

Dragon Ball rounded itself out SO nicely. Muten Roshi had always warned Son about letting power go to his head and that's exactly what happened after he drank the full potential unleashing Super Holy Water and defeated the KI mastering demon from hell that could level a city in a single swipe of his hand. I heard once that Goku seemed really out of character when he went up to Kami's palace but I think that his smug over confident persona was completely intentional. Mr.Popo smacked him into place and basically told him he was the strongest person on Earth and still didn't know shit. Then the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai rolled around and Piccolo had incredible strength but Goku was able to beat him, making good use of his cleverness and KI mastery that he learned from Kami.Running head first into battle worked for so long but he found out that wasn't enough, it's really reminiscent of button mashing Street Fighter 2 and knowing how to Hadoken and Dragon Punch and then getting your ass handed to you by truly skilled players. THAT'S why I feel like it made sense for Goku to keep Piccolo around, Piccolo was the only one who could rival Goku even slightly at this point and Goku being Goku needed someone to use as a sparring partner. Goku was at level 100 and he needed someone else at least at level 90 to put up a good, fun fight. It's an eternal struggle between two world shattering forces.

Then the Saiyan arc rolled around and it seemed like a complete reboot. Goku suddenly had this random ass-pull of an origin story and suddenly he could gain more power and he never had to use strategy and the sound mind he gained from Kami's training again. It went into this repetitive nonsense and suddenly everyone and their grandma were shooting world destroying laser beams and zipping around the air with zero training or effort.

I really enjoyed reading that. I totally picked up on Goku's arrogance on Kami's lookout and loved how Popo teaches him so many great lessons for him to take into his final confrontation with Piccolo. Classic stuff. However, for over a year now, I've been watching the entire series from scratch with my family (we're at the start of the Trunks episodes) and I have to say that the show does stay pretty consistent. The only big difference between Dragon Ball and "Z" is that they really go out of their way (in DB) to explain new techniques that change the dynamic of the fights. By the time we get to "Z", most of the things that were big deals in Dragon Ball (IE: from Dodonpa, to flying, to actually defending vs. large Ki attacks as seen during 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai) have been integrated as "regular" moves in "Z".

By the time we get to "Z", these things have to be made "the norm" in order to allow for new changes to the way they do battle. New ideas are introduced which, again, affects this dynamic. However, the show makes sure to point out that being strong and fast has a lot to do with how skilled you are at using your inner ki. Example: Nappa vs. Goku, Ginyu trying to use Goku's body, Trunks losing to Cell even though he's much stronger. The source of the Android's strength stems more from their unlimited stamina than actually being "more powerful than Freeza". These ideas are MUCH better explained in the Japanese version to be honest. The English dub barely touches on these , so it can give some people the idea that DBZ ignores tactics/skill during battles.

[Akumaito Beam]

I'm not going to say I think that's wrong, but I think it's exaggerated, personally. Goku continued to be one of the best fighters in the series because he remembered the things Kami taught him. His approach to things is so different from, say, Vegeta's, and we see that in the way he and Gohan trained to fight Cell. Goku often had this calm, spiritual, "I know what I'm doing" feel around him, and I'm pretty sure that began right after Kami and Popo's training.

Is it a result of that? It seemed like a lot of those moments are just rehashes of Goku coming back from Karin tower after drinking the holy water and everyone being amazed at how much he's changed. It seems like Goku has been "enlightened!" and "totally different now!" 3 or 4 different times then he gets a bad-ass zen pose and proceeds to turns back into Goku whenever it stops being cool. On top of that Gohan also had his fair share of those exact moments too.

By the time we get to "Z", these things have to be made "the norm" in order to allow for new changes to the way they do battle.

I find that the issue exactly and it's part of why I really dislike Z. I don't know if this sort of thing has a name but it's that mushing together of the most appealing factors in a property and then diluting the property until it's nothing but those appealing factors (lowest common denominator pandering, perhaps?). It's why "The Force", "Light Sabers" and "The Sith" are huge laughing stocks nowadays, it's why there's literally a guy in the Star Wars expanded universe that has an armor made up of tiny light sabers. This cheap strategy actually worked in Dragon Ball's favor in a classic "Is Toriyama just an incredibly lucky slacker or a genius?" sort of way but it caught up with him once Goku hit a ceiling. People point to the Cell arc for when Dragon Ball started becoming stupid but I really think Z is the culprit here. There was just nothing left to do with this cast of characters or at the very least nothing left to do with Goku. As people before me have said the series started relying on trying to shove Goku out of the story because he was too strong, that's because Goku hit his peak before the Saiyan arc even began. It began to be less about story and more about laser light shows and destroying planets by blinking. The story dwindled down to WWF match ups in either the mountains, plains or a series of islands and the fights became this exercise in redundancy. Looped flurry of punches, neon laser beams and transformations. It was always cool to see a character develop or pull out a new KI technique in the original series which is why it became popular, which is why it was subsequently abused like a red headed step child in Z.

[DBZAOTA482]

So why are you even on the forums if you dislike Dragonball collectively?

[Akumaito Beam]

So why are you even on the forums if you dislike Dragonball collectively?

Don't know if this was directed at everyone that mirrored my opinions here or just me but I'll answer it regardless.

Because DB is discussed here and I like DB. I also think the Saiyan and Freeza arcs have a bunch of cool redeeming factors and tell a fun story even if the overall tone feels like a lazy version of the arcs before it. That leaves me with 2 arcs that I think completely blow which is sort of a drop in the bucket at the end of the day. To be honest though, even if I didn't like any part of Z I'd still come here because I'm familiar with the story and I like to see other people's opinions on it. Hell, I still read threads discussing The Office even though I thought that show started going down hill after season 3.

[DBZAOTA482]

So why are you even on the forums if you dislike Dragonball collectively?

Don't know if this was directed at everyone that mirrored my opinions here or just me but I'll answer it regardless.

Because DB is discussed here and I like DB. I also think the Saiyan and Freeza arcs have a bunch of cool redeeming factors and tell a fun story even if the overall tone feels like a lazy version of the arcs before it. That leaves me with 2 arcs that I think completely blow which is sort of a drop in the bucket at the end of the day. To be honest though, even if I didn't like any part of Z I'd still come here because I'm familiar with the story and I like to see other people's opinions on it. Hell, I still read threads discussing The Office even though I thought that show started going down hill after season 3.

Aww but the Android/Cell Saga was my favorite arc in all of Z , Boo Saga on the otherhand...

[son veku]

Kai ruined Cell for me.

[Beji]

I enjoyed all of the Dragon Ball Z arcs of the series probably more than the DB part. My room very accurately shows which arcs I like the most and though DB part has its own place I like DBZ(Raditz and onward) more. I love the concept of fusions and the designs. Even though there are a few things that make you wanna scream at the television during the Buu saga I just enjoy it. I laugh during Dragon Ball just as much if not more than sit there and think " this is so bad ass".

Dragon Ball Evolution on the otherhand...