How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Now seriously, why the hell is Goku Super Saiyan (2?) AND unconscious? How is that even possible? Even before the Cell Games, when he was Super Saiyan Full Power, he & Gohan had to turn to normal when sleeping.

[Super Vegetto]

Now seriously, why the hell is Goku Super Saiyan (2?) AND unconscious? How is that even possible? Even before the Cell Games, when he was Super Saiyan Full Power, he & Gohan had to turn to normal when sleeping.

2 pages of SSJ2 Goku unconscious xD

Btw i use hitting limit and mastering ssj2 to get to ssj3 which means he can be ssj2 unconscious by my logic. He is even in dead body so again much less strain and he has more stamina but not power in dead body.

Goku and Gohan were not SSJ when they sleep because i think that Goku though how that is not nessecary, but ofc its never stated they cant, i think.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I thing they said that they can't stay Super Saiyan when sleeping, in the manga. I could be wrong though.

[Super Vegetto]

It seams they can be SSJ while the are unconscious which means Vegeta is SSJ2 with SSJ aura. Btw more proof of Gohan beeing SSJ2 against Dabura :

SSJ2 isnt any diffrent than SSJ. At clearly made Gohan SSJ2 looking like SSJ because he neaded to make SSJ2 look weaker compered to SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta that are hitting limits.

Even in manga its stated as super saiyans thing and not SSJ2. Later AT introduced us with SSJ2 and SSJ3 trough Goku, which is way later after all events.



Gohan is SSJ2 against Dabura but picture clearly says "super saiyan" and even Kibito before Gohan puls out Z sword call SSJ2 a Super saiyan.

Kaioshin says couple of time Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?, yet its not SSJ. AT later shows SSJ2 as complity diffrent form.

In Cell games it was more like : He incrised his power without loosing speed.

SSJ2 was clearly higher SSJ stage but later its changes in diffrent form.

[hleV]

It's an old thread and doesn't have many answers, but you could keep such discussion there rather than going off-topic in this thread.
Descending from SSJ to Base Form.

And Super Vegetto, don't use unreliable translations as evidence. Also if you have new "evidence", why not bring it to a fitting thread? Here's your own:
Was Gohan SSJ2 against Dabura, Majin Buu's Shell, Z sword.

[Godo]

It's strange, because in what I feel I must now call my "fanon", Gohan being just a regular ssj against Dabura and Boo, combined with all the statements you hold so dear to your argument, makes perfect sense.

Same for me!



In his SSJ form, Gohan's hair stands steep and straight (as seen in red color).
In his SSJ2 form, it stands jagged and less steep.

In his SSJ form, Gohan has more anterior bangs, but in SSJ2, his hair behind his bangs becomes more spread (like a flower opening up), and also, he seems to have less anterior bangs (green color).

In his SSJ form, Gohan hasn't got sparks.
But in his SSJ2 form, Gohan has even got sparks (even though he is relaxed!). In his supposed "SSJ2" form against Dabra and Buu (where he has eaten a Senzu bean) his hair remains the same as in his SSJ form. And now he has an even bigger reason to go all out, but still no sparks! Yet they were there moments before!

Those are the factors that contradict the SSJ2 theory art wise to me.

And regarding the story and the comments, my interpretation is pretty clear that a "no threat" that even weakened Gohan can handle, isn't someone at a SSJ2 level. It's pretty clear that they are speaking about someone manageable by a SSJ1.
Any opponent at the power of a SSJ2 and higher is a problem to defeat for them (see Goku vs. Freeza where they had problems taking each other out because of their powers being close to each other's).
An easy opponent would thus be someone close to their SSJ level, since they would be able to defeat him with SSJ2.

Both Goku and Gohan were close to Perfect Cell's power, but they never saw him as a non-problem. If Dabra was at SSJ2 level, then he would be a problem.
It's all about power differences, and the story indicates that Dabra wasn't near their SSJ2 powers at all.

Anyhow, those are my personal thoughts about this matter.

[Super Vegetto]

It's an old thread and doesn't have many answers, but you could keep such discussion there rather than going off-topic in this thread.
Descending from SSJ to Base Form.

And Super Vegetto, don't use unreliable translations as evidence.

I use evidence where Goku is clearly SSJ2 and so is Vegeta.

Btw can you show original translation ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SSJ2 isnt any diffrent than SSJ.

It is.
Gohan (Kid): SSJ, SSJ2
Gohan (Teen): SSJ, SSJ2
Goku: SSJ, SSJ2

What does this say?

[Super Vegetto]

It's strange, because in what I feel I must now call my "fanon", Gohan being just a regular ssj against Dabura and Boo, combined with all the statements you hold so dear to your argument, makes perfect sense.

Same for me!

http://i46.tinypic.com/2i7s26g.jpg

In his SSJ form, Gohan's hair stands steep and straight (as seen in red color).
In his SSJ2 form, it stands jagged and less steep.

In his SSJ form, Gohan has more anterior bangs, but in SSJ2, his hair behind his bangs becomes more spread (like a flower opening up), and also, he seems to have less anterior bangs (green color).

In his SSJ form, Gohan hasn't got sparks.
But in his SSJ2 form, Gohan has even got sparks (even though he is relaxed!). In his supposed "SSJ2" form against Dabra and Buu (where he has eaten a Senzu bean) his hair remains the same as in his SSJ form. And now he has an even bigger reason to go all out, but still no sparks! Yet they were there moments before!

Those are the factors that contradict the SSJ2 theory art wise to me.

And regarding the story and the comments, my interpretation is pretty clear that a "no threat" that even weakened Gohan can handle, isn't someone at a SSJ2 level. It's pretty clear that they are speaking about someone manageable by a SSJ1.
Any opponent at the power of a SSJ2 and higher is a problem to defeat for them (see Goku vs. Freeza where they had problems taking each other out because of their powers being close to each other's).
An easy opponent would thus be someone close to their SSJ level, since they would be able to defeat him with SSJ2.

Both Goku and Gohan were close to Perfect Cell's power, but they never saw him as a non-problem. If Dabra was at SSJ2 level, then he would be a problem.
It's all about power differences, and the story indicates that Dabra wasn't near their SSJ2 powers at all.

Anyhow, those are my personal thoughts about this matter.

You do realize art says Gohan is SSJ and so no point even to show it, but nice.

Yet when you compere someone in strenght, you compere to some person who is in full power ( FP Perfect Cell ) closest to person like Dabura.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -xl2Tv.jpg

Look at last panel. SSJ Gohan hairstyle ? I see that even hairstyle cant prove diffrent now.

Now look this :

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -3iFVq.jpg

Base Gohans back hair is same like in those few panels. AT just tryed to make SSJ2 Gohan looking epic so he made detailed hairstyle in those few pags for Gohan in SSJ2 and Base.

Hairstyle when AT draws better :
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6327/gohanaftertb.gif > http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9851 ... foretb.gif

DBZGTKOSDH :

http://i36.tinypic.com/2h4je3d.jpg

Battle 35
Son Gohan VS Dabra
Battle Story: The ones who manipulated Spopovitch were Babidi and Dabra, who are trying to revive Majin Boo! Burning with anger, Gohan stands against Dabra to avenge Videl!! How will Gohan fare against the surprisingly formidable Dabra…!?

Fighting Ability Analysis
Son Gohan
Will he persevere with his Super Saiyan power!?
His power compares pretty favorably even to Goku, but there’s also the uncomfortable matter of his recent lack of training…

Dabra
Quite a ruffian! The strongest fighter in the Demon Realm!!
Though obviously skilled in hand-to-hand combat, he’s also an irregular fighter with a mastery of strange techniques.

Gohan has a surprisingly difficult battle! Does he really lack training after all…?
As Goku and co. advance on their way towards Babidi, Babidi’s trusted aide Dabra finally appears before them! Gohan faces him in a one-on-one battle, but Dabra maneuvers skillfully and so the battle goes on for a fairly long time without being decided.

[caption to Gohan firing blast] Power-wise he clearly overwhelms Dabra! …Or he was supposed to, but!?

[caption to Gohan breaking Dabra’s sword] ??? but it has no effect against a Super Saiyan!!

[caption to Dabra smiling] While fighting, Dabra checked Goku and co. out. He seizes upon a certain strategy!

[big red text] “All of you, come at me at once!”

Battle Result
Sensing Vegeta’s evil intentions, Dabra one-sidedly ends the battle in order to manipulate him! While continuing to rile up Gohan and co., he escapes into the depths of the spaceship.

Match Unsettled!
Last Attack: Dabra retreats


"Super Saiyan" is just a universal term used to identify the state, it doesn't specify which form of SSJ unfortunately. The only source that ever gave a clear distinction on it was Daizenshuu 7.

[Bussani]

When you compere with the one who is closest in strenght, you compere them in full power. Goku saw FP Perfect Cell and you see my point.

Says who? Who wrote this rule? Why do we all have to follow it?

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

He talks about power, not performance.

You take everything so literally. Like I said, I'm not sure Kaioshin can even tell the difference between power and performance.

It seams they can be SSJ while the are unconscious which means Vegeta is SSJ2 with SSJ aura.

I don't even know where to start here. Even the translation you posted said that they wouldn't be sleeping as Super Saiyans, which seems to contradict what you were trying to say. And even if it did say they slept as Super Saiyans, how in the heck does that prove that Vegeta was Super Saiyan 2 in those panels...?

[Super Vegetto]

You dont nead to follow it but its logical that he talks about FP Perfect Cell. Unless you belive that Goku would be scared of Dabura 7 years ago.

We need to take everything that is stated as stated. How do you think that Babidi and Dabura knowed about saiyans posesing enormeus power when everyone was suppressing power. Same is why Piccolo ( Kami ) stated that Kaioshin and him and 2 diffrent dimensions in power. He wouldnt say that if he didnt knowed that.

He sad they wouldnt be SSJ when they sleep, because its not nesecary. He never sad they cant or this translation is wrong ?

Nice one man, why would he be SSJ2 if Goku is SSJ2 lying on ground ? Ofc that he is SSJ2. Why would AT change him in SSJ and Goku staying in SSJ2.

[Bussani]

You dont nead to follow it but its logical that he talks about FP Perfect Cell. Unless you belive that Goku would be scared of Dabura 7 years ago.

He'd have been as frightful an opponent as Cell was to everyone back then.

We need to take everything that is stated as stated. How do you think that Babidi and Dabura knowed about saiyans posesing enormeus power when everyone was suppressing power.

If they were so good at knowing how strong they were, why were they surprised by Super Saiyan Goku's power? They even needed a machine to measure it.

He sad they wouldnt be SSJ when they sleep, because its not nesecary.

He only said that they wouldn't be Super Saiyans while asleep, not that it wouldn't be necessary. He doesn't really say that they can or can't, just that they won't.

Nice one man, why would he be SSJ2 if Goku is SSJ2 lying on ground ? Ofc that he is SSJ2. Why would AT change him in SSJ and Goku staying in SSJ2.

Why wouldn't he? These seem like more rules that are coming out of nowhere.

[Super Vegetto]

Well i dont know where you see Dabura but one question : Is there anyone who compered his strenght to someone ? I mean Kids compered so called Super Gotenks with Mystic Gohan so ofc they compere SSJ3 Gotenks with Mystic Gohan.

They knowed that they have enormeus power but they never knowed how much exactly.


Its not rule but it doesnt make sence. If Goku didnt went base why would Vegeta powered down and then go SSJ2 again. No logic if he already planed to eat senzu in few seconds.

[Bussani]

Well i dont know where you see Dabura but one question : Is there anyone who compered his strenght to someone ? I mean Kids compered so called Super Gotenks with Mystic Gohan so ofc they compere SSJ3 Gotenks with Mystic Gohan.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but "Super Gotenks" is what they call his Super Saiyan 3 form, so they're being pretty specific in that case. It would be like if Goku had said "Super Perfect Cell" instead of Cell (but no one calls him that in the manga, of course).

Its not rule but it doesnt make sence. If Goku didnt went base why would Vegeta powered down and then go SSJ2 again. No logic if he already planed to eat senzu in few seconds.

Maybe Goku wasn't Super Saiyan 2 as he was lying there. You said yourself a few posts ago that the hair can be unreliable, and one panel of someone lying vertically isn't very conclusive. Still, it's weird for him to still be Super Saiyan at all. Gohan didn't stay Super Saiyan when Buu's blast knocked him unconscious.

[Super Vegetto]

I asked if you ever readed in dbz how someone comperes in powers specificly in which form, because i dont see other way that compering closest character in full power with other close character like Dabura.
Btw Goku never senced SPC so it makes sence that he doesnt talk about powered up version.

I never sad that SSJ2 Gokus hair looked diffrent then before. Well Goku still stays on SSJ2 and Vegeta looks like SSJ because of aura, and btw Gohan was dying so his energy was very low, where Goku clearly wasnt near death.

I dont see any other explanation but to show every example where SSJ2 aura changes so that you or anyone cant say that they are SSJ but in next panel SSJ2 :

Vegeta after getting damaged. Nothing like SSJ2 aura but lightning is there
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -V4TVP.jpg

SSJ2 Vegeta with SSJ aura
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -hCUKl.jpg

SSJ2 Vegeta same aura like in SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goten
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -HWj4h.jpg

Whole page of SSJ aura
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -sZncV.jpg

2 panels missing lightning bolts but has FPSSJ aura
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -GxD3l.jpg

This is clearly SSJ2 Vegeta unless you belive that he went from SSJ to SSJ2 few times against Majin boo
[url]http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -w50FO.jpg[/img]

[dprez]

Godo, your post was awesome.

The story truly does indicate that Dabura wasn't near their ssj2 powers.

[Kaboom]

Super Vegetto, if you're going to continue using images to support your discussion, please either shrink them down somehow or simply post links. Displaying all these huge images is becoming borderline spam at this point.

[Bussani]

I asked if you ever readed in dbz how someone comperes in powers specificly in which form, because i dont see other way that compering closest character in full power with other close character like Dabura.

I still don't understand what you're trying to say. Sorry.

I never sad that SSJ2 Gokus hair looked diffrent then before. Well Goku still stays on SSJ2 and Vegeta looks like SSJ because of aura, and btw Gohan was dying so his energy was very low, where Goku clearly wasnt near death.

Then maybe Goku simply reverted to Super Saiyan as well. He'd gone all the way back to base by the time we next saw him, after all.

I dont see any other explanation but to show every example where SSJ2 aura changes so that you or anyone cant say that they are SSJ but in next panel SSJ2

Alright, let's say we accept that. What is all of this to prove? That Gohan could have been Super Saiyan 2 without looking like it, right? But like I said to begin with, one panel here or there isn't the same as a whole chapter with no sign of lightning or the aura or the hair or anything.

Ask yourself this: when the lightning or whatever disappears for one panel, why does it then come back? Because it's meant to be there. It tells the reader something. That's the whole point in Super Saiyan 2 looking different from Super Saiyan 1. I don't think Toriyama drew a whole chapter making him look Super Saiyan while thinking, "People will understand that he's doing the whole 'Super Saiyan beyond the Super Saiyan' thing, right? No? Well, maybe I'll throw in some random panels without lightning later on so they'll get it."

Anyway, I'll say this: maybe you're right. I may be pointing out other options and interpretations almost constantly, but that doesn't mean I'm trying to say you're wrong. I actually think it would make a lot more sense if Gohan had been Super Saiyan 2 in his fight with Dabura, but I find it really hard to explain away the art. The random panels without lightning or with a less thick aura just aren't enough of an explanation for me, and I can't see how it could be a mistake on Toriyama's part, either. I kind of wish I could just explain the art away, say he was Super Saiyan 2, and be done with it, but both the idea that he was Super Saiyan and the idea that he was Super Saiyan 2 require a stretching of logic, so there isn't really a perfect answer.

[dprez]

I dont see any other explanation but to show every example where SSJ2 aura changes so that you or anyone cant say that they are SSJ but in next panel SSJ2

Alright, let's say we accept that. What is all of this to prove? That Gohan could have been Super Saiyan 2 without looking like it, right? But like I said to begin with, one panel here or there isn't the same as a whole chapter with no sign of lightning or the aura or the hair or anything.

Ask yourself this: when the lightning or whatever disappears for one panel, why does it then come back? Because it's meant to be there. It tells the reader something. That's the whole point in Super Saiyan 2 looking different from Super Saiyan 1. I don't think Toriyama drew a whole chapter making him look Super Saiyan while thinking, "People will understand that he's doing the whole 'Super Saiyan beyond the Super Saiyan' thing, right? No? Well, maybe I'll throw in some random panels without lightning later on so they'll get it."

The most coherent response I have seen all day.

[Godo]

You do realize art says Gohan is SSJ and so no point even to show it, but nice.

Yes, after the tournament, the art shows that Gohan is a SSJ.
It shows clearly when he is a SSJ or a SSJ2. I showed the differences in my image in my last post.
So he isn't SSJ2 other than in the tournament.

Yet when you compere someone in strenght, you compere to some person who is in full power ( FP Perfect Cell ) closest to person like Dabura.

Of course, since that's the only form that is seen as a "no threat". Even in the Buu arc, someone as strong as a SSJ2 would be a threat.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -xl2Tv.jpg
Look at last panel. SSJ Gohan hairstyle ? I see that even hairstyle cant prove diffrent now.

Nope. Gohan's hair there shows still that he is SSJ2. The hair strands are positioned wider, and his hair is longer. Ergo, SSJ2.
Look at my picture above again.

Now look this :

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -3iFVq.jpg
Base Gohans back hair is same like in those few panels. AT just tryed to make SSJ2 Gohan looking epic so he made detailed hairstyle in those few pags for Gohan in SSJ2 and Base.

Again, I do not agree at all.
That is Gohan's normal hair. The SSJ hair on Gohan looks pretty much like his base form's hair.
But as a SSJ2, there is a great difference, since the hair is both longer and more wide, as well as wider.

Hairstyle when AT draws better :
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6327/gohanaftertb.gif > http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9851 ... foretb.gif

That's not "when AT draws better". That's a different hairstyle of Gohan's of which was changed for the tournament.
Some say that his hair grew, a likely explanation.