How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Bussani]

So long as you're sure your opponent really is only Super Saiyan 1 level, then yeah. If Gohan were holding back, for whatever reason, maybe he would have gone all out if the fight hadn't ended so abruptly.

[Saiga]

So long as you're sure your opponent really is only Super Saiyan 1 level, then yeah. If Gohan were holding back, for whatever reason, maybe he would have gone all out if the fight hadn't ended so abruptly.

Just out of curiosity, are you on the fence about this or do you think he was a SS1/2? Because your posts sound as though you don't believe either side.

[Godo]

That's definitely true, but the thing is that SS2 would stomp a SS1 league opponent and there would be hardly any damage inflicted, so SS1 is still a bad idea.

True, but good ideas are not one of the strengths of the characters in Dragonball, so it doesn't count really.
If it's as you say, Goku could have stomped Majin Vegeta with SSJ3 and saved up so that less energy would be given to Buu, but he didn't. He chose to help to potentially release Buu in an attempt to satisfy his fighting lust.
A lot of stupid decisions are made in the Buu arc. Gohan not using SSJ2 could be one of them, regardless of how stupid it would be.
I mean, if Gohan wasn't an idiot, he wouldn't let himself lose all that power he worked so hard to gain those last 7 years, at least as a memento to his father's dreams.

And as I remember: Goku and Vegeta fighting as SSJ2s filled up the meter quite quickly and they inflicted a lot of damage on each other (even though they were even).
But Gohan and Dabra, even though presumably uneven in terms of strength (or maybe even even!), didn't fill up the meter much at all.
At this point of the story, the SSJ2 (or "beyond Super Saiyajin") was much, much, much more powerful than the SSJ1.
So all in all, the reason for Dabra and Gohan's fight not generating much energy at all was that they were fighting at a much more inferior level than SSJ2, which is: SSJ1.

[Kaboom]

That's why I prefer the "Gohan can't easily go SSj2 because he never trained with the form" idea. It gives a highly plausible answer to the mystery while minimizing the fault on Gohan (or Toriyama for that matter).

[Saiga]

That's why I prefer the "Gohan can't easily go SSj2 because he never trained with the form" idea. It gives a highly plausible answer to the mystery while minimizing the fault on Gohan (or Toriyama for that matter).

But he transformed easily at the 25th Budokai.

[Kaboom]

I mean drop-of-a-hat, "hey, check this out. *BAMF*" level of easily. At the Tournament, Gohan had to spend time gathering power to transform for Kibito, to the point the audience was getting impatient and ticked off.

[Bussani]

Just out of curiosity, are you on the fence about this or do you think he was a SS1/2? Because your posts sound as though you don't believe either side.

I guess you could say I'm on the fence, but...maybe that's not quite right. I kind of want to be able to believe he was Super Saiyan 2, but I can't manage to convince myself, if that makes any sense. Right now Super Saiyan 1 seems slightly more likely to me, but honestly, if Toriyama came out and told us which it was he had in mind, I wouldn't be surprised no matter what the answer is. So on the fence, but currently leaning one way, maybe?

All that said, I'm the kind of person who likes to just lay out all the possibilities. I don't feel like I have to believe one single thing when a lot of interpretations seem plausible.

But he transformed easily at the 25th Budokai.

Did he, though? He was standing there grimacing for long enough for the audience to start yelling at them to get on with it. It could be like how Goku said he wasn't completely used to Super Saiyan 3 yet and apologized for it taking a moment the first time he used it, or how Freeza needed Goku to lay off him for a bit so he could power up to 100%.

Edit: Beaten to it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I mean drop-of-a-hat, "hey, check this out. *BAMF*" level of easily. At the Tournament, Gohan had to spend time gathering power to transform for Kibito, to the point the audience was getting impatient and ticked off.

Was it like that in the manga too?

[Bussani]

Was it like that in the manga too?

Yeah. Of course, he was standing there going "grrr" in his base form with an aura, like he was going to transform into something. Someone could easily argue that he was only going to change into a Super Saiyan at first, then changed his mind at the last minute, in which case the long case of standing around wouldn't have anything to do with Super Saiyan 2 and would just be for...I don't know, dramatic reasons? But it's another plausible interpretation, at least.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We could say that Gohan needed time to go SSJ2, but then again Goku wanted time too for SSJ3, but later he could immediately go into SSJ3, but maybe Goku did this much time to buy time for Trunks.

[Super Vegetto]

Lol its first SSJ2 transformation is new saga. Ofc that AT will made some time for Gohans tranformation to look good.

"Dad and Vegeta must be fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is even greater!" He never says anything about himself fighting at such a level and contributing to that, which, some would say, makes it sound like he wasn't."

Level beyond Super Saiyan doesnt mean level Gohan achived.

Goku clearly says that he wont give energy to majin boo so he goes FPSSJ2 to finish Vegeta fast. Again why would Gohan hold back if Goku didnt whanted because of that situation.

They already knowed that Dabura is FP Perfect Cell level. Why would he hold back from start if one mistake in SSJ form could take his life, and its clearly that Dabura tryed to kill him. Only in anime it looks like Dabura is toying with Gohan. Vegeta in anime even says that he is toying and not actualy trying to kill him.

[Saiga]

Just out of curiosity, are you on the fence about this or do you think he was a SS1/2? Because your posts sound as though you don't believe either side.

I guess you could say I'm on the fence, but...maybe that's not quite right. I kind of want to be able to believe he was Super Saiyan 2, but I can't manage to convince myself, if that makes any sense. Right now Super Saiyan 1 seems slightly more likely to me, but honestly, if Toriyama came out and told us which it was he had in mind, I wouldn't be surprised no matter what the answer is. So on the fence, but currently leaning one way, maybe?

All that said, I'm the kind of person who likes to just lay out all the possibilities. I don't feel like I have to believe one single thing when a lot of interpretations seem plausible.

I think I'm the same, at the moment. I previously believed SS2 (can't remember why) before I was aware there was such controversy over it, then I was unsure, then read about Daizenshuu 7, then read that Daizenshuu 7 was proven wrong and Daizenshuu 2 claimed he only used it at the World Tournament which started to get me to lean towards Daizenshuu 1, and after learning that was mostly bullshit I'm back to leaning towards SS2. I think it would be the biggest thing I wish was finally cleared up by Toriyama or a guidebook that did more than refer to it fairly indirectly.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Lol its first SSJ2 transformation is new saga. Ofc that AT will made some time for Gohans tranformation to look good.

That's the out-universe explanation, but this is an in-universe discussion.

[Super Vegetto]

Lol its first SSJ2 transformation is new saga. Ofc that AT will made some time for Gohans tranformation to look good.

That's the out-universe explanation, but this is an in-universe discussion.

I dont know if you noticed how Goku goes SSJ3 in one panel when Bootenks attacks him. First time its proved that Goku neads time, but its clearly to make SSJ3 tranformation epic.

Gohan doesnt nead time to go SSJ2 just like Goku to SSJ3. I'm wondering that some peoples didnt noticed that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I dont know if you noticed how Goku goes SSJ3 in one panel when Bootenks attacks him. First time its proved that Goku neads time, but its clearly to make SSJ3 tranformation epic.

We could say that Gohan needed time to go SSJ2, but then again Goku wanted time too for SSJ3, but later he could immediately go into SSJ3, but maybe Goku did this much time to buy time for Trunks.

[Super Vegetto]

Well it seams they dont nead time to tranform. Tnx for making it clear, but still Goku sad that it took time because he isnt used to that transformation, yet later he goes in second.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well it seams they dont nead time to tranform. Tnx for making it clear, but still Goku sad that it took time because he isnt used to that transformation, yet later he goes in second.

He could be lying to Babidi & Boo to excuse his long time to transform.

[Super Vegetto]

I dont know. I dont see why would he give time to Trunks with his tranformtion if he already planed to fight with Fat boo. Its same thing. If he tranformed fast, he would fight few more panels with Fat boo but he gets same result in loosing time on earth.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I dont know. I dont see why would he give time to Trunks with his tranformtion if he already planed to fight with Fat boo. Its same thing. If he tranformed fast, he would fight few more panels with Fat boo but he gets same result in loosing time on earth.

He already contradicted himself later. First he wasn't used to it and needed time to transform, and few hours later he could do it in an instant? I guess the best explanation was that he was lying & did it to earn time.
As for Gohan's case, I think that if it was done for dramatic reasons, Toriyama wouldn't show us the audience getting impatient. Goku became SSJ against Freeza in an instant for the first time, and it was the very first SSJ transformation is the manga. So, I think there is a reason Gohan didn't immediately became SSJ2.

[hleV]

Against fat Boo, Goku told that he wasn't used to SSJ3, so I guess it wasn't long since he learned it in the afterlife. Against Gotenks-absorbed Boo, Goku goes SSJ3 pretty much instantly. Either that's because he "gotten used" to it after transforming once in the living world, or he practiced on the Kaioshins' planet.