How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Bussani]

There is also the question about nobody noticing the energy the cacoon gained from Gohan playing with Darbra

That was because it was a roughly even battle, and neither was taking that much damage (or, at least, equal damage). So whatever energy Boo's cocoon would've gained from that fight was probably little, as Bobbodi was expressing rage at Dabra not being able to hurt Gohan enough.

But weren't Goku and Vegeta even, too? And Gohan directly attributes the damage they were doing to the level they were fighting at, so it still feels like he's implying he wasn't fighting at that level to me.

[Fox666]

Goku and Vegeta are even closer in power. I suppose Gohan battle was much shorter. But I don't want to go off-topic with that.

[Super Vegetto]

There is also the question about nobody noticing the energy the cacoon gained from Gohan playing with Darbra

That was because it was a roughly even battle, and neither was taking that much damage (or, at least, equal damage). So whatever energy Boo's cocoon would've gained from that fight was probably little, as Bobbodi was expressing rage at Dabra not being able to hurt Gohan enough.

But weren't Goku and Vegeta even, too? And Gohan directly attributes the damage they were doing to the level they were fighting at, so it still feels like he's implying he wasn't fighting at that level to me.

If you look closly in manga only damage Gohan got is from Daburas ki blast. Btw they are almost equal in that time and Gohan maybe even stronger. After Gohan breaks his sword his energy starts to go away. So reason Dabura didnt damaged his so badly is because it was still
Gohan > Dabura and Dabura only hits him once. Also Gohan doesnt even has a scratch on his face or something. Only riped of clothes.

In manga Vegeta hits Goku first time. Gokus head is bleading. After that scan they fight more and then Babidi says that Majin boo reached limit.

[Bussani]

I suppose Gohan battle was much shorter.

Was it? Goku and Vegeta had only just started when Buu's meter suddenly shot to full.

If you look closly in manga only damage Gohan got is from Daburas ki blast. Btw they are almost equal in that time and Gohan maybe even stronger. After Gohan breaks his sword his energy starts to go away. So reason Dabura didnt damaged his so badly is because it was still
Gohan > Dabura and Dabura only hits him once. Also Gohan doesnt even has a scratch on his face or something. Only riped of clothes.

In manga Vegeta hits Goku first time. Gokus head is bleading. After that scan they fight more and then Babidi says that Majin boo reached limit.

That's one interpretation. But like I said, Gohan attributes the astounding damage to the level they're fighting at, as though he and Dabura hadn't been in the same boat. Besides, what if we imagine for a moment that Gohan was just a Super Saiyan after all? If he wasn't taking any damage, then Super Saiyan 2 wouldn't have been needed as urgently as some people seem to think.

That said, I have to say, the idea that Gohan may have actually technically have been stronger than Dabura is the first thing in a while that makes him being Super Saiyan 2 sound more plausible to me (Edit: More plausible in general, I mean. Not necessarily more plausible than the various alternatives). That's definitely a new take on it that I haven't thought about before.

[Super Vegetto]

Even daizenshuu says that Dabura is Perfect Cell level. You can belive in Gohan beeing SSJ if you belive that SSJ Gohan is strong enough to fight equal with Perfect Cell aka Dabura. Goku and Daizenshuu 7 stated that and its never contradicted so i stay on Gohan beeing SSJ2.

Wierd thing here is how many disagree about Gohan beeing SSJ2, yet on another forum only one guy thinks Gohan was SSJ but everyone else has same opinion like me. Wierd thing.

[Bussani]

Even daizenshuu says that Dabura is Perfect Cell level. You can belive in Gohan beeing SSJ if you belive that SSJ Gohan is strong enough to fight equal with Perfect Cell aka Dabura. Goku and Daizenshuu 7 stated that and its never contradicted so i stay on Gohan beeing SSJ2.

Goku and Gohan (at first, at least) both fought pretty evenly with Perfect Cell as Super Saiyans, so it becomes a matter of whether we agree on the whole "they must have been talking about him at full power" deal.

Wierd thing here is how many disagree about Gohan beeing SSJ2, yet on another forum only one guy thinks Gohan was SSJ but everyone else has same opinion like me. Wierd thing.

That is pretty funny. I think opinions on this forum are much more split down the middle, though. There are a few people here who think he was Super Saiyan 2, and probably even more people who, like me, wouldn't be surprised if either opinion turned out to be what Toriyama had in mind.

[Super Vegetto]

Well i think Goku realy compered him with Cell full power. Also later he says that he is even stronger than he though because of magic.

Something like Vegeta knowing Goku SSJ2 > Gohan SSJ2 in Cell games.


Thats why its funny. In other forum everyone go by logic and what is stated while only one guy go by lightning and apperence of Gohan.

I whant to finish this debate but i know that later on this fourum will be same topic about Gohans power and still same opinions like here.

[Bussani]

Thats why its funny. In other forum everyone go by logic and what is stated while only one guy go by lightning and apperence of Gohan.

Well, it's not like the "Super Saiyan 1 believers" (as I'll call them) here aren't using logic and what is stated to back up their arguments. As I've said, the dialogue can be interpreted in different ways, leading to different results. Even the "Super Saiyan 2 believers" have to interpret certain lines in particular ways to make their opinion make sense, as you've shown several times. Heck, even if we took away the art and pretended this was a radio show, I still don't think the answer would be clear cut.

I think we just have to face the fact that every piece of evidence has been analysed, re-analysed, and re-interpreted again and again, and that no conclusion can ever truly be reached unless new evidence (e.g. Toriyama saying something about it) is introduced into the mix. And as I've said before, I really wouldn't be surprised no matter which way turned out to be what Toriyama intended.

[Fox666]

Even daizenshuu says that Dabura is Perfect Cell level. You can belive in Gohan beeing SSJ if you belive that SSJ Gohan is strong enough to fight equal with Perfect Cell aka Dabura. Goku and Daizenshuu 7 stated that and its never contradicted so i stay on Gohan beeing SSJ2.

But why do you think Cell was that strong? After transforming in Super Saiyan 2, Gohan was torturing Cell who was in despair. While as a Super Saiyan he was close of having an even battle with Cell.

Even if Cell used all of his power only after Gohan transformed, he started to use all of his speed from the middle of the battle:



Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

And even after that Gohan could still defend himself against Cell:



So as far I can tell from the manga, Cell is supposed to be around the level of a Super Saiyan. Even if he was superior to Gohan, even at his fullest he wasn't very different.

On top of that, Goku said Darbra was "probably about as strong" as Cell, so there is nothing word with Darbra struggling against Gohan.

[Super Vegetto]

Gohan was torturing Cell because he is stronger as a kid, and because he draws strenght from anger which made his SSJ2 form even more powerful.

I dont see any SSJ beating FP Perfect Cell.

Well there is. He says that he is probably as strong as Cell. Later he corrects himself and says that he is above Cell because of magic. Daizenshuu 7 says the same thing. I dont see why would Goku or daizenshuu sad that Dabura poses strenght like heavy suppressed Cell.

Also same thing how Goku knows that Dabura is around FP Perfect Cell level. He senced Fat boo but he senced that he doesnt stand a chance alone while Vegeta was laughing about his opinion.

Something like Karin knowing that Cell > Goku yet he only saw his 50% of power.

I go by official source and what is stated but you feel free to think diffrent.

[Godo]

Well i think Goku realy compered him with Cell full power.

If I think about it using your logic, then it's clear that when Goku was measuring Oob's power, he was actually comparing it to Gohan-Buu, Gotenks Buu and Super Buu, not Kid Buu.
It is not as easy as that.

[Super Vegetto]

No its not my logic. Daizenshuu and Goku say same thing and it was never contradicted ( exept by those that think Gohan was SSJ ).

[Fox666]

Except for the Daizenshuu itself, which also states that Gohan was only a Super Saiyan?

Well there is. He says that he is probably as strong as Cell. Later he corrects himself and says that he is above Cell because of magic. Daizenshuu 7 says the same thing. I dont see why would Goku or daizenshuu sad that Dabura poses strenght like heavy suppressed Cell.

The Daizenshuu is only repeating the same thing said in the manga.

And Goku never said Darbra is "above Cell", he only says Darbra is better than he tought because he can use magic. This is not something mensurable, someone else could just argue that renegeration is still better than magic.

[Godo]

No its not my logic. Daizenshuu and Goku say same thing and it was never contradicted ( exept by those that think Gohan was SSJ ).

Goku never said that Dabra was as strong as " Full Power Perfect Cell". He said that Dabra was as strong as "Cell".

Cell is a character who has the following stages:
1) Imperfect
2) Imperfect with humans absorbed
3) Semi-Imperfect
4) Perfect
5) Super Perfect

Now, Perfect and Super Perfect are those forms who were the biggest threat to our heroes back then.

Super Perfect Cell (10% of Perfect Cell's time on Earth) would still now be a hassle to deal with, since they all are in the same power range (SSJ2). Super Perfect Cell may be weaker, but he is problematic nevertheless with his SSJ2 level power (since we know that the SSJ2 level is the highest Vegeta and Gohan have achieved, and they are weaker than Goku at the Babidi Arc).

Perfect Cell (90% of Perfect Cell's time on Earth) however, would be easy to deal with for Goku, Vegeta and Gohan in their SSJ2 forms.

But we don't know if they are meaning "Full Power Perfect Cell", or simply someone in Perfect Cell's range, which would include Gohan, Goku and Vegeta's FPSSJ forms.
The latter is after all the most logical, since we are speaking about an approximation here. If Goku meant Perfect Cell's full power, he would have said so. But logically, we can assume that he was talking about an approximation, since he wasn't exact.

So for me, it's all about logic, rather than putting out "facts" that are simply not true at all.

[012yArthur0]

I just read the chapter 460, and then the Buu`s cocoon is full of energy, Kaioshin and Gohan are tremendously admired. And as Kaioshin says: Goku took so much damage in so little time to buu`s cocoon get so much energy so quickly. And Gohan says they are fighting a level that would "exceed" the level of Super Saiya-jin. And in chapter 462, after seeing Buu, Son Gohan says that if he can use his real strength, he would have a chance to defeat him (before Buu Kicks Dabra away). For me it is natural that Gohan is only level SSJ1 in the Babidi saga (except that moment in martial arts tournament -against Kibito).

To the topic....by power level:

Majin Vegeta = Goku SSJ2 >> Super Perfect Cell =/< Kid Gohan SSJ 2 >> Adult Gohan SSJ 2 > Dabra > Adult Gohan SSJ 1 >> Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Gohan

He sad he could win, if he unleashes his true strenght ( anger ). Btw i am pretty sure he doesnt nead anger to go SSJ2.

He doesn't need anger to go SSJ2, but he needs anger to get the KI boost that SSj2 gives. After all, he even said that he can't get angry enough, which implies that the anger is what makes Gohan strong, and SSJ2 is like to show how much angry he was. However, this theory got smashed when Gohan became SSj2 in front of Kibito.

I think Gohan could go SSj2 to Dabura, but he needs to be angry to get all the Ki boost, otherwise, the difference in power isn't so big.

[dprez]

No its not my logic. Daizenshuu and Goku say same thing and it was never contradicted ( exept by those that think Gohan was SSJ ).

Goku never said that Dabra was as strong as " Full Power Perfect Cell". He said that Dabra was as strong as "Cell".

Cell is a character who has the following stages:
1) Imperfect
2) Imperfect with humans absorbed
3) Semi-Imperfect
4) Perfect
5) Super Perfect

Now, Perfect and Super Perfect are those forms who were the biggest threat to our heroes back then.

Super Perfect Cell (10% of Perfect Cell's time on Earth) would still now be a hassle to deal with, since they all are in the same power range (SSJ2). Super Perfect Cell may be weaker, but he is problematic nevertheless with his SSJ2 level power (since we know that the SSJ2 level is the highest Vegeta and Gohan have achieved, and they are weaker than Goku at the Babidi Arc).

Perfect Cell (90% of Perfect Cell's time on Earth) however, would be easy to deal with for Goku, Vegeta and Gohan in their SSJ2 forms.

But we don't know if they are meaning "Full Power Perfect Cell", or simply someone in Perfect Cell's range, which would include Gohan, Goku and Vegeta's FPSSJ forms.
The latter is after all the most logical, since we are speaking about an approximation here. If Goku meant Perfect Cell's full power, he would have said so. But logically, we can assume that he was talking about an approximation, since he wasn't exact.

So for me, it's all about logic, rather than putting out "facts" that are simply not true at all.

As I have said before, I put Dabura around the level of the Cell that Fpssj Goku and Gohan fought. Putting Dabura at Super Perfect Cell's level, which is Ssj2 level, is a bit much if you ask me. Why this is a bit much, has been stated many times in this thread already. Gohan and Dabura's battle seamed to not be at the level beyond super saiyan, like Goku and Vegetas battle was. This is obvious to me.

[Bussani]

I go by official source and what is stated but you feel free to think diffrent.

I don't think you've taken anything in at all, really, so I don't see any reason to continue this so-called discussion.

[Super Vegetto]

Daizenshuu says that Dabura is around Cells level. One daizenshuu says that Gohan was never SSJ2 after world tournament, while other says diffrent. From all of this it still stays that Dabura is Cells level.

Also i whant some proof that says Gohan fought heavy suppressed Cell aka Dabura. But like i already sad Goku would say that he is same power level as him in Cell games rather than saying Cells level. To much complication doesnt make sence and like i already sad when you compere someone with someone you use full strenght because compering characters full power with heavy suppressed character is wierd. Just think about that.

Atleast one forum knows diffrence while this one neads 12 pages to prove something so i see no point to write something again.

If you guys whant proof of Gohan beeing SSJ2 read what i already writed but as far as i can see nothing here will change.

[Kaboom]

Daizenshuu says that Dabura is around Cells level. One daizenshuu says that Gohan was never SSJ2 after world tournament, while other says diffrent. From all of this it still stays that Dabura is Cells level.

Also i whant some proof that says Gohan fought heavy suppressed Cell aka Dabura. But like i already sad Goku would say that he is same power level as him in Cell games rather than saying Cells level. To much complication doesnt make sence and like i already sad when you compere someone with someone you use full strenght because compering characters full power with heavy suppressed character is wierd. Just think about that.

Atleast one forum knows diffrence while this one neads 12 pages to prove something so i see no point to write something again.

If you guys whant proof of Gohan beeing SSJ2 read what i already writed but as far as i can see nothing here will change.

A few key points to make...

#1: Start improving your spelling and grammar. Leeway is given to those whose native language isn't English, but since you've given no indication that such is the case for you, you're expected to type properly and clearly. This post was a jumbled mess. You've been cut a lot of slack already, but if your posts' readability doesn't start improving soon, expect to start getting system warnings. Also, if you're going to quote people, please learn how to do so properly.

#2: This is at least the second time you've compared us to some other forum on this topic, and in such a critical manner as to say, "well this OTHER forum 'gets it,' so why don't you?" The fact of the matter is, any random other communities' majority opinion does not hold any bearing here. People are allowed to have their own opinions and debate against yours.

#3: Similarly, don't try to enforce your own rules for dialogue interpretation onto other people. "About as strong as Cell" means "about as strong as Cell." This is a very wide range and when you get down to it, any level of Cell is viable, because there were and are no other villains within that range. Cell was much, much stronger than any other villain up to that point, even when not at his full power. Therefore, opinions on how Dabra compares to Cell can and will vary quite a bit, and legitimately so. Other people have already tried to tell you this, but you still continue to act like you represent the only acceptable interpretation. That really isn't going to fly.

[Super Vegetto]

Daizenshuu says that Dabura is around Cells level. One daizenshuu says that Gohan was never SSJ2 after world tournament, while other says diffrent. From all of this it still stays that Dabura is Cells level.

Also i whant some proof that says Gohan fought heavy suppressed Cell aka Dabura. But like i already sad Goku would say that he is same power level as him in Cell games rather than saying Cells level. To much complication doesnt make sence and like i already sad when you compere someone with someone you use full strenght because compering characters full power with heavy suppressed character is wierd. Just think about that.

Atleast one forum knows diffrence while this one neads 12 pages to prove something so i see no point to write something again.

If you guys whant proof of Gohan beeing SSJ2 read what i already writed but as far as i can see nothing here will change.

A few key points to make...

#1: Start improving your spelling and grammar. Leeway is given to those whose native language isn't English, but since you've given no indication that such is the case for you, you're expected to type properly and clearly. This post was a jumbled mess. You've been cut a lot of slack already, but if your posts' readability doesn't start improving soon, expect to start getting system warnings. Also, if you're going to quote people, please learn how to do so properly.

#2: This is at least the second time you've compared us to some other forum on this topic, and in such a critical manner as to say, "well this OTHER forum 'gets it,' so why don't you?" The fact of the matter is, any random other communities' majority opinion does not hold any bearing here. People are allowed to have their own opinions and debate against yours.

#3: Similarly, don't try to enforce your own rules for dialogue interpretation onto other people. "About as strong as Cell" means "about as strong as Cell." This is a very wide range and when you get down to it, any level of Cell is viable, because there were and are no other villains within that range. Cell was much, much stronger than any other villain up to that point, even when not at his full power. Therefore, opinions on how Dabra compares to Cell can and will vary quite a bit, and legitimately so. Other people have already tried to tell you this, but you still continue to act like you represent the only acceptable interpretation. That really isn't going to fly.

Lolz bad grammar. I see that most peoples understand what i sad and from far as i can see no one even mentioned something i writed wrong.
Atlest its better than trolling.

Yes i compered. And yes i didnt knowed that Gohans SSJ2 characteristics are important so yea clearly on this forum everyone goes by SSJ2 characteristics and not logic and what is stated in manga and guidbooks.

I see. You probably have Gohan as SSJ against Dabura so no wonder you say same thing. But going by compering in strenght, is there any quote in manga that comperes character with some other character ?

SPC says he powered up like Gohan. Does that mean he is compering himself with 1% SSJ2 Gohan or 100% Gohan ?