Post Z sword training

[son veku]

I'm basing thier strength on how well cell beat them up not on strength they weren't using.

[012yArthur0]

I'm basing thier strength on how well cell beat them up not on strength they weren't using.

This don't counter proof Saiga statement. Gohan was stronger than Goku, but he didn't want to fight.

You can be the strongest fighter ever, but the second one is way better than you at fighting if you don't want to fight.

[dprez]

I'm basing thier strength on how well cell beat them up not on strength they weren't using.

Are you really saying that Cell games fpssj Goku is stronger than Cell games fpssj Gohan?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan's comfortably stronger than Goku in the Cell Games. Goku's battle with Cell looked like childs play from his POV.

I think Gohan grew stronger from the Z-sword training, but still nothing to the likes of Boo or Super Saiyan 3

[Bussani]

I'm basing thier strength on how well cell beat them up

Then Gohan should have been stronger at first, given that Cell couldn't even touch him until he got more serious about it.

[son veku]

Gohan's comfortably stronger than Goku in the Cell Games. Goku's battle with Cell looked like childs play from his POV.

I think Gohan grew stronger from the Z-sword training, but still nothing to the likes of Boo or Super Saiyan 3

Like I said earlier just because Gohan thought Goku wasn't fighting with full power does not mean he is stronger before enragement.
All it was is that he thought Goku was better, probably because cell was slowly winning.
Also the person who said the reason for him thinking Goku was holding back was Goku, Gohan never said that.

He thought Goku was holding back because he couldn't believe someone as strong as his dad could lose to Cell.

I do not believe Gohan was stronger before his enragement.
If someone can show me proof other than thier own word I will believe it.

[Saiga]

Like I said earlier just because Gohan thought Goku wasn't fighting with full power does not mean he is stronger before enragement.
All it was is that he thought Goku was better, probably because cell was slowly winning.
Also the person who said the reason for him thinking Goku was holding back was Goku, Gohan never said that.

He thought Goku was holding back because he couldn't believe someone as strong as his dad could lose to Cell.

I do not believe Gohan was stronger before his enragement.
If someone can show me proof other than thier own word I will believe it.

The proof is there, but you're ignoring it. There is zero proof that Goku was stronger.

[Bussani]

Why would Goku ask, "To you, it felt like I was holding back?" if Gohan only thought he was holding back because he was losing? That makes no sense in context. Goku was trying to convince everyone that Gohan can do it. When Piccolo asked Gohan if it was true and he nodded an affirmative, Vegeta's response was, "No way...! The brat's lying...!" Lying about what? About thinking Goku was weaker because he was losing? That makes no sense.

Besides, it's not just Goku who Gohan thought was holding back: he thought Cell was, too, and still didn't think the fight was too incredible for him to keep up with.

And like I've said twice already, Cell had to get more serious just to land a hit on Gohan.

[son veku]

Just because cell had to try hard to hit him might just be because
A-maybe because he trained his speed more
B-he wanted to run away thus making him stronger like when he is really afraid of enraged

Um maybe he thought Goku and Cell were holding back because he was basing them off of himself the time he got mad in the Hyperbolic time chamber.

Cell having to try hard to punch Gohan is not proof he was stronger.
I don't believe it so lets just drop it.

[Darkprince410]

Just because cell had to try hard to hit him might just be because
A-maybe because he trained his speed more
B-he wanted to run away thus making him stronger like when he is really afraid of enraged

Um maybe he thought Goku and Cell were holding back because he was basing them off of himself the time he got mad in the Hyperbolic time chamber.

Cell having to try hard to punch Gohan is not proof he was stronger.
I don't believe it so lets just drop it.

The only times we see Gohan getting mad while he's in the Room of Spirit and Time is when Goku is trying to get him to transform, and he grows substantially stronger following his transformation through strength alone. We don't see him attempt to get mad after that (in fact the only time we see Goku and Gohan afterward is when Goku is demonstrating 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade and their weaknesses) Goku even goes as far to say that due to his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, the power he obtained when he got angry was already starting to emerge, so part of his existing strength as a Super Saiya-jin was from that power he reached when mad.

What is initially said in the manga regarding Gohan's strength, well before Cell even learns that Gohan's strength increases when he's angry.

Chapter: 403 (DBZ 209), P1.1-3
Context: Goku talking to Cell about Cell's next opponent (ie Gohan)
Goku: “The Cell Games will probably end with this next match. Since if he loses, there won’t be anyone else who could win against you…[ ] But from fighting you just now, I think this guy really can beat you after all."

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

The power up referred to in the above comment was his initial power-up right before he started fighting, not when he transformed into a Super Saiya-jin 2.

For Cell to admit that he felt Goku wasn't completely lying about his boast about Gohan's power (he words it to suggest that the lie was in believing Gohan could beat him), suggests that Gohan was already more powerful than Goku.

As for his dodging and avoiding Cell's attacks, why wouldn't that suggest he's stronger? There's no indication that he specialized in his speed any, and there wasn't any indication whatsoever that he was feeling afraid or angry (thus not tapping into his strength when emotional).

[Bussani]

I just thought I'd add that the parts son veku is talking about, where Gohan gets angry in the Room of Spirit and Time, are anime only scenes. I don't mean anything negative by that, or that I'm simply dismissing them--I just figured I'd make sure we're all on the same page.

Anyway, it still seems pretty clear to me that Gohan was supposed to be the stronger of the two. It might be harder to see if you're looking at individual lines of dialogue, but when I actually read the chapter and see the way everyone reacts to everything, I find it really hard to see it any other way. But everyone's entitled to their own opinion, so I'll just leave it at that.

[asbereth]

I think Gohan grew stronger from the Z-sword training, but still nothing to the likes of Boo or Super Saiyan 3

I agree with this. I do believe that Gohan did get stronger after he trained with the Z-sword (to what extent, we don't know, still weaker than SSJ2 Goku, I suppose, but probably he regained some of his Cell games power back). He went from hardly being able to handle it in base, to swinging better than even base Goku could, and that should imply something. While I'm not denying that there is indeed a separation of muscles and ki, there is also a positive correlation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo also says despite Gohan being #1, he's still just a kid. So, even if you don't want to believe the other stuff, Piccolo admits that Gohan is stronger than all of them, anyway.

[Bussani]

Piccolo also says despite Gohan being #1, he's still just a kid. So, even if you don't want to believe the other stuff, Piccolo admits that Gohan is stronger than all of them, anyway.

I'm kind of arguing against my own opinion here in a way, but hey, I guess that's fair. Technically, Piccolo says, "Even if his power is #1, he's still a kid." This is in response to Goku talking about Gohan's hidden power, so you could take it to mean, "Even if the power that comes out with his anger is as great as you say it is, he's still a kid." Still, that doesn't contradict the opinion that he was stronger than Goku to begin with in any way, either.

[dprez]

Yea, especially since after Gohan powered up, every was like, "Holy shit no way!!!"

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo also says despite Gohan being #1, he's still just a kid. So, even if you don't want to believe the other stuff, Piccolo admits that Gohan is stronger than all of them, anyway.

I'm kind of arguing against my own opinion here in a way, but hey, I guess that's fair. Technically, Piccolo says, "Even if his power is #1, he's still a kid." This is in response to Goku talking about Gohan's hidden power, so you could take it to mean, "Even if the power that comes out with his anger is as great as you say it is, he's still a kid." Still, that doesn't contradict the opinion that he was stronger than Goku to begin with in any way, either.

Hmmm...I think that's a good way to look at the quote. Personally, I hadn't read that part in awhile, so I didn't take the full context into consideration. I always saw it as Piccolo acknowledging Gohan's place in power while also reinforcing the fact that he's still a kid and lacks the warrior mentality like Goku. Your way works, too.

I think we all pretty much agree that everything within the earlier chapters does more than a good job establishing Gohan as the superior of the two.

[Mystic Gohan]

I never seen the Z-Sword to be all that great. I think Z-Sword Gohan is the most overrated character of all time and i am a Gohan fanboy. I'd say he could have bumped himself higher than Goku and Vegeta in SSJ2, but nowhere near Fat Buu imo.

[Insertclevername]

I never seen the Z-Sword to be all that great. I think Z-Sword Gohan is the most overrated character of all time and i am a Gohan fanboy. I'd say he could have bumped himself higher than Goku and Vegeta in SSJ2, but nowhere near Fat Buu imo.

Just curious, why did you say that Z sword Gohan is overrated? Because I always got the impression that he was under used and often forgotten.

[Mystic Gohan]

I never seen the Z-Sword to be all that great. I think Z-Sword Gohan is the most overrated character of all time and i am a Gohan fanboy. I'd say he could have bumped himself higher than Goku and Vegeta in SSJ2, but nowhere near Fat Buu imo.

Just curious, why did you say that Z sword Gohan is overrated? Because I always got the impression that he was under used and often forgotten.

Because on other forums, people put him just below Fat Buu to justify Goku and Kaioshin's comments. Imo, Kaioshin was just trying to make up for the breaking of the sword by hyping Gohan up and Goku was trying to be nice to his son. But i think it is possible he is stronger than Majin Veg or SSJ2 Goku, but nothing higher imo.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

He probably got an insane increase considering Son Goku implied that SSjin/SSjin 2 (whichever you think is his top power in the Boo arc) Gohan is about as powerful as Dai Kaioshin Boo, who is almost as powerful as SSjin 3 Goku.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: after the Z Sword breaks
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

I think at that point Goku would have been planning to teach him to become a SS3. Doesn't he say something about showing the form to Gohan earlier?

That would make things interesting if Gohan actually achieves Super Saiya-jin 3 form against Fat Boo.