Kai marketing sold idea that Z series is a flawed series?

[Aoi]

Is it me, or have any of you noticed that Kai's marketers (in order to sell the new concept) needed to generally convince fans that "Z" is a "flawed" series? As if it was not meant to be seen that way. Even worse, I find that this has created trend of people who now imagine that the original is unbearably slow and nearly impossible to watch again (most of the time without having seen it again). I think this is unfortunate. The more I watch "Z" again with my family, the more I notice that nearly every singular episode (even the ones I imagined to be longer) was greatly/naturally paced, and came out exactly as it was intended (minus certain Namek arc moments).

[Pokewhiz7]

I do think that Z is unbearably slow, and I did even before I saw Kai. Now, it's not 100% unwatchable, although I really have absolutely no desire to watch through certain parts of it again, like the Freeza fight, which is, of course, notoriously slow. There is no reason at all for it to take that long at all. As for early Namek, it's OKAY, although some things are just stupid, like Bulma vs. the crab. The Androids/Cell and Boo arcs aren't much better. I remember one episode in the Cell arc, which was literally JUST powering up. The best the pacing in Z gets, in my opinion, is the Saiyan arc, which is paced decently, though I'd still prefer the Kai version. I actually really like the Snake Way episodic filler, such as when Goku falls off and lands in Hell, Princess Snake, etc. Though I don't care much for the robot episode at all. Once I collect up all of Kai, I probably won't watch Z ever again, other than the Boo arc, of course. There are pros and cons to both series, and legitimate arguments to be made that one show is better than the other. I wouldn't fault someone for choosing either over the other. Z has better music placement, better voice-acting, and better video quality. I'm sure we're all aware of the whole Yamamoto incident, and I thought that the music placement before everything went down was pretty good, though after that, the replacement Kikuchi score isn't very good. (Although I have heard it greatly improves in newer episodes, and the last few episodes are pretty damn good in this respect.) Kai is, of course, twenty years newer than Dragon Ball Z, and the voice actors are getting up there, so naturally, it'll take a slight dip in quality. That is not to say that it's bad by any means; the voice acting is still very good, but inferior to Z. As for video quality, Kai looks really blurry to me, and the re-animated scenes stick out like a sore thumb. I think that the Dragon Boxes look much better. However, Z is not without its flaws. The audio quality is rather crappy, (which, considering its age, is excusable) and the pacing is just shit. Kai fixes these two issues. Regardless of acting quality, the clarity and fidelity of the nice Kai audio compared to Z is night-and-day. The pacing is also vastly better. It creates a more concise, faster, interesting show. I like the filler episodes in Z (that is, not just powering-up for a whole episode, but actual self-contained stories), but here's the thing: I can always just watch the Z versions. There would be no point in including an entirely filler episode in Kai. The endless reaction shots and power-ups, though, I won't miss.

I hope I didn't go off too much, but yes, I do believe that Z is definitely a flawed series. Kai is also very flawed also, however. In the end, though, I think I might prefer Kai to Z. I don't think that the Z episodes are really paced naturally.
Also, I think it might be very confusing to some people if they see Kai and think of it as the same show as Z. That's one huge issue I have with Kai: it's made up of old animation, which leads to issues, such as what is considered to be "censorship," to the correct aspect ratio, and just the very idea that it's a cheap cash-in. I guess they had to do SOMETHING to market it, though whether or not the way they did it is a good way is up to you.

[Bussani]

I thought Z was slow before Kai came along and said so. A lot of people did, I think, and often said that the pacing was much better in the manga. I always thought Kai had just said what we were all thinking, but I guess not everyone felt that way after all.

[DBZAOTA482]

I thought it was slow from the get-go but I didn't care though that was when I was a kid. I can still watch it though while the pace still kinda leans to the monotonous side and can be horribly dragged out but I think people do exaggarate it like some mad man, I mean, it's at least not Inuyasha. That aside, I'm not too big a fan of Kai.

[ohaimynameiserik]

Probably the biggest criticism of the Z anime was that it had notorious amounts of filler and was far too dragged out.

If Kai's marketing wasn't geared towards having much better pacing comparable to the manga, I would want the people trying to promote it fired.

[DBZAOTA482]

Probably the biggest criticism of the Z anime was that it had notorious amounts of filler and was far too dragged out.

If Kai's marketing wasn't geared towards having much better pacing comparable to the manga, I would want the people trying to promote it fired.

Whoever did the redrawn scenes should be fired.

[dbboxkaifan]

Probably the biggest criticism of the Z anime was that it had notorious amounts of filler and was far too dragged out.

If Kai's marketing wasn't geared towards having much better pacing comparable to the manga, I would want the people trying to promote it fired.

Whoever did the redrawn scenes should be fired.

Regardless of how it'd been redrawn it would still clash with the original animation used.

I didn't like the new redrawn scenes too much but nor did I detest them, just in the middle.

That Kuririn scene where's talking to Trunks or whoever looked like from a Java game or w/e.

[Aoi]

I guess I've always just had different expectations when watching Shonen. I mean, if Dragon Ball is slow then shows like One Piece are just garbage with 0 rewatchability. Yet fans of it still love the pacing of one piece. The difference between Kai and Z is how quickly he main story progresses. However, watching only one episode of Z per day (as we've been doing to mimic my childhood experience) I've noticed how well paced each episode is. Perfect balance of comedy leading up to a great cliff hanger. It just works. I could imagine trying to plow through the series with Kai, but this takes away from enjoying it fully for me. It's like watching the new prequel to John Carpenter's "The Thing" because the original is "too slow". It was meant to be, as was "Z".

Some people mention the Freeza fight vs Ssj Goku (the only part that Kai actually needed to fix IMO), but it never gets that bad again. People like to think they remember it does, but it doesn't.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

I don't think DB(Z)K should even exist. I mean, I do love the English dub, but I have to be honest - there was no need for this. How do they market something there's no need for? Well, in Japan I don't think it was ever advertised as "better", I think in Japan it was more of a "refreshed" version. It's original intent was to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the anime and also to bring the audio and visuals up to today's standards (or as close as they can get to it with what that had to work with).

But here in America, where the Orange Bricks are at the top of the DBZ DVD food chain, they had to really think of a way to market DBZK in a way to seem "better" than the Orange Bricks.

So to answer your question, yes I agree with you but, I think they just did what they needed to do as a business to sell new products. I don't blame them. They needed to sell DBZK to people who already knew what DBZ was, I'm sure that was a bit of a challenge.

[AgitoZ]

It's like watching the new prequel to John Carpenter's "The Thing" because the original is "too slow". It was meant to be, as was "Z".

No, not at all. First of all, not only is that a weird comparison, Z should've never been as slow as it was. One of Toriyama's greatest strengths was his pacing and the TV adaptation utterly destroyed that.

Also, I would never call The Thing slow. A slow set up, maybe, but by the time "The Thing" shows up it's anything but. Even if it was, it's a horror movie not a kid's show about fighting.

Some people mention the Freeza fight vs Ssj Goku (the only part that Kai actually needed to fix IMO), but it never gets that bad again. People like to think they remember it does, but it doesn't.

Yes it does. Compare how many episodes it takes to chapters it takes.

[dprez]

Well if anything, at least it might get more fans to pick up the manga who never thought about it before. Once they learn of the filler and pacing that was DBZ, and how even DBKai is flawed in it's attempt to be true to the manga, this may give them a reason to want to read the manga for the first time.

[Travis Touchdown]

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree that Z is unbearably slow. It's not unwatchable, don't get me wrong. Z is what got into Dragon Ball in the first place. However, Kai is just much more appealing to me. All that filler, all that stuff that dragged the story out; endless dialogue posturing on who's stronger, endless dialogue on how you have no chance of winning, all those flashbacks, sub-stories that have nothing to do with the plot, whole episodes of powering up, it's all been cut down to a bare minimum.

I love that. I love that I can watch only 98 episodes instead of the hundred and some odd it takes Z to reach the same place. The pacing is just so much better. As I watched my Z Season Sets, I found myself bored a lot of the time and skipping entire episodes. I don't have that with Kai.

The quality of acting in Kai is great and consistent. With Z, it starts great at the Saiyan Saga, plummets with Frieza, starts to get a little better with Cell, and finally it's at a pre-Kai quaility by the end of Buu.

Kai is the product I forsee myself going back and watching multiple times, whereas my Season Bricks may sit on the shelf for a while.

[csl002]

DBZ TV is very slow but it has its redeeming features. It's a poor adaptation of the manga but I think that the filler is part of what makes the anime worth watching. Unlike a lot of filler in most shounen shows, filler in DBZ was treated just as any other episode was treated. So it's not unbearably ugly or poorly directed. I actually quite like the filler -- it's usually pretty fun and well executed. DBZ TV is also worth watching because some of the episodes have pretty good animation and direction. For a more technical view, it's also worth watching to see what was brewing inside Toei's internal creative culture at the time.

Kai is just an awkward clipshow cobbled together from a series that stretched the source material beyond its limits... episodes frequently have artstyle shifts due to the original series taking several episodes to cover what Kai covers in one or so. This isn't inherently bad but when coupled with how inconsistent DBZ TV was, it's a huge negative because it just comes off as a sloppy presentation. And I won't even get started on those horrendous redrawn scenes by TAP. Kai's downfall was trying to use the original anime to faithfully adapt the manga... it's just not possible.

Honestly I don't see the point in Kai's existence. It's a more faithful adaptation of the manga, sure, but it's so hackneyed and sloppy and doesn't even cover the entire manga. In short, DBZ TV is a better anime but Kai is a more faithful adaptation of the manga, just very poor. Why not just read the manga?

disclaimer: I don't really care for the manga so DBZ TV being a poor adaptation of the manga doesn't really matter to me but I recognize it's a dealbreaker for those who do care about the manga and I respect that

[AgitoZ]

disclaimer: I don't really care for the manga so DBZ TV being a poor adaptation of the manga doesn't really matter to me but I recognize it's a dealbreaker for those who do care about the manga and I respect that

The deal breaker isn't that it adapts the original comic badly. It's that DBZ is incredibly flawed, mostly in its pacing. Many of these weren't in the comic, which is why a more faithful adaptation would help.

It would be like saying DB: Evolution is bad because it's unfaithful. It's bad because it's a sloppy and boring movie.

[DBZAOTA482]

Probably the biggest criticism of the Z anime was that it had notorious amounts of filler and was far too dragged out.

If Kai's marketing wasn't geared towards having much better pacing comparable to the manga, I would want the people trying to promote it fired.

Whoever did the redrawn scenes should be fired.

Regardless of how it'd been redrawn it would still clash with the original animation used.

I didn't like the new redrawn scenes too much but nor did I detest them, just in the middle.

That Kuririn scene where's talking to Trunks or whoever looked like from a Java game or w/e.

They do barely anything but ruin the experience for me because they really stick out, especially during the Android/Cell Saga.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Okay, time for my $0.02.

I agree that DBZ is flawed because of lengthy and sometimes contradictory filler, and Kai has better pacing, all things considered, but even Kai's pacing can be pretty bad at times. As a matter of fact, I find that some such moments were edited/paced even worse than Z, for the opposite reason (too fast instead of too slow). The Raditz episodes come to mind. The way they were handled seems more like DBZ for people with severe ADD to me, starting with episode 2. They actually cut some fairly important material that was from the manga (such as the first mentioning of how the Dragon Balls cannot revive a person more than once) for what seemed like no reason other than to get to the fighting quicker. The following episode was also terrible. No breathing room whatsoever. It just makes me wonder what the hell were they thinking?? Sure things gradually got better as the series went on, especially after episode 10, when a new editor took over, but even then, there were moments in which the editing just didn't sit well with me. One such moment is the beginning of episode 17, when Goku convinces Kuririn to spare Vegeta's life. To me, that's just not something that goes at the beginning of an episode. It just isn't.

Everyone else noted all the positives with Kai, so there's nothing new for me to add in that department.

[Aoi]

jpdbzrulz4sure, Tanooki Kuribo, I enjoyed reading your posts the most. It's not because I agree with a lot of the points (some I don't, such as Kuribo's opinion that Kai should not exist), it's because you took the time to actually name examples.

AgitoZ, I'd probably agree with more of what you're saying if you used a few examples too. I just don't buy the : "Nah. It just sucks...because it's boring and it just does" argument. The prequel to "The Thing" that came out last year was heavily edited. Originally it was supposed to build up in the same way the original did. However, they showed the movie to a bunch of pre-teens with ADD and because of their "this is boriiiiiing" reviews, they hastily edited the film to resemble an all out action thriller with the actual "thing" being introduced roughly 15 minutes into the film. It was pretty bad.

I guess it depends on what you like seeing. I actually felt that the filler during the Saiyan invasion was a welcome change of pace/tone. It's expertly/naturally implemented and actually helps narrative. Again, I adore seeing the show explore the personalities of Android 17-18 during their driving filler, or Muten Roshi + the turtle trying to convince Maron not to leave Krillin. It just works for me and it doesn't feel like "stalling" (IE: One Piece) in the least. If anything, it makes the episodes much more enjoyable and varied.

As I said before, the only "part" of Dragon Ball that Kai needed to "fix" was the SSJ Goku vs. Freeza? Why? Well, I find that everyone has different opinions on what filler was good or bad. However, the SSJ Goku fight actually feels like TOEI seriously f-ed up. It was not meant to be seen the way it was. In Kai's SSJ Goku v. Freeza fight is a huge success (8.5/10) compared to the original's 2/10 abomination.

[Rocketman]

So what was the importance of cutting to shots of random woodland creatures and Chichi doing the dishes in the middle of the Raditz fight again?

[Aoi]

So what was the importance of cutting to shots of random woodland creatures and Chichi doing the dishes in the middle of the Raditz fight again?

Never said all filler was perfect. I basically enjoy any filler except for the Bulma vs. crabs bs or SSJ Goku vs. Freeza stalling. It's not filler, it's actually stalling.

[DBZAOTA482]

So what was the importance of cutting to shots of random woodland creatures and Chichi doing the dishes in the middle of the Raditz fight again?

To show that Goku has Chichi corrected?