What makes a god, a god

[Piccolo Daimao]

Also, "Kaiou" is a lot less wordy and more specific than "the Lord of the Worlds" (which probably works better in official media rather than general discussion where you're not trying to confuse other fans).

[TripleRach]

I think Bussani and Puto already said most of what I would have said. I don't think the word "god" is too strict to include the Dragon Ball characters, because there have been so many different interpretations in the various religions and mythologies throughout world history. And on top of the special abilities already mentioned (possessing people, watching over the planet, restoring a moon), he can also travel to and from the afterlife at will; I doubt that's something just any Namekkian can do.

The Journey to the West comparison is an interesting one. I think Gokuu and friends' progression from "above average" to "surpassing the gods" was an intentional way of showing how amazing they'd become, along with being able to destroy planets and all that. Gokuu himself was even offered the chance to be Earth's next god, but he obviously declined. And it's not like Oolong or Dr. Brief can go around beating up the gods, so even the lowest of the low still tower above most mortals.

And as I always seem to point out in these threads, the Dragon Ball gods seem to prefer non-interference, so it's possible we haven't seen the full range of their godly abilities.

But yeah, it's still not like he needed to be Earth's god to make them dragon balls. I guess they were just killing two birds with one stone.

I don't know that this was their intention, but the creator of the Dragon Balls seems like someone who should be removed from the normal world, and not just living at Capsule Corp or something. It also seems logical to me that if they're picking someone for such an important role as lording over Earth's Dragon Balls, the same person is probably qualified to be Earth's god, too. The Namekkians themselves do something similar with the DB creator also serving as their leader, which we saw happen with Muuri. I'd also imagine that the two roles seemed to go together in the minds of the Earthlings, kind of like ancient Greek gods being associated with multiple things.

Not that I don't think there are issues with Dende suddenly becoming Earth's god. I just don't think it's ridiculous to associate the two roles. Maybe gods of other planets have similar unique responsibilities.

Also, didn't Gokuu explain the situation to Kaiou when trying to find the planet? Even if not, I'm sure he could've figured out what they were doing. He didn't seem to mind them picking a new god, on top of Piccolo also approving it.

I suppose it comes down to that. I'll accept that "Kami" in the sense that it's used in DragonBall means "God". But why should that get translated when other things don't? Does anyone translate "Kami", but not "Kaio"?

There are plenty of good reasons not to translate "Kaiou," which is the only real reason I didn't translate "Kami" in the past. But nowadays I prefer to just translate all of them.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So basically, their mindset was, "OK, so there isn't anyone to make new DBs, and we don't have a god anymore too. Fuck it, let's just grab a Namekian and double him up as both."

And both Kaiou and the previous God (inside Piccolo) agreed with this. Like I said, it was for convenience.

[Tzigi]

And you know what? The Polish edition of the manga translated all of those titles. We've got:
Kami -> Bóg (god)
Kaio -> Król Światów (the king/lord of the worlds)
Kaioshin -> Bóg Światów (the god of the worlds)
It's an idiosyncrasy of the best Polish manga editor (JPF) to translate in each and every manga they publish everything as the Japanese would understand it...

[Rocketman]

Just because the word "God" is used does not necessarily mean it's referring to the Christian God. Disney's Hercules had gods, yet you don't see people claiming that just because they're the Greek gods and not the Christian God they should've called left them as "θεός", do you? It's the same kind of thing.

No it isn't. Disney's Hercules had gods and Hercules becomes a god. Nobody in Disney's Hercules, Immortals, Clash/Wrath of the Titans, God of War, etc, etc, is simply called "God", because "God" means the monotheistic deity of JCI.

The same posts get made every time this topic comes up. You guys are correct from a purely logical standpoint, but you also completely ignore the enormous cultural weight behind the word "God" in the US. You might as well call Kami "Thor" and then bitch that people keep expecting him to use a hammer.

"A god" as in "power of a god" or even "become a god" is fine, hell, Spongebob did the latter.
"God of X" (God of War, God of the Sun, Goddess of Love, etc) is also fine. Nobody would bat an eye if Kami had been designated "the God of Earth".
"God" with no qualifiers refers only to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim deity.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Nobody would bat an eye if Kami had been designated "the God of Earth".
"God" with no qualifiers refers only to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim deity.

That's the thing, he was designated as "the God of Earth". That's his title, but the main characters typically refer to him as simply "God" for short, because it'd be unnecessarily extraneous for people that know him so closely to call him so formally by his full title.

And, in the context of the series, "God" with no qualifies refers to the child of Katatz. As others have aforementioned, there are instances that support this, such as when Kuririn prays to God just like a Christian would do, until Piccolo reminds him that "God's just Dende".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Also, maybe they made Dende Kami as an excuse to take him on Earth. Besides, wasn't Muuri the one who recommended Dende to take the job, because he had great potential?

[LiamKav]

And, in the context of the series, "God" with no qualifies refers to the child of Katatz. As others have aforementioned, there are instances that support this, such as when Kuririn prays to God just like a Christian would do, until Piccolo reminds him that "God's just Dende".

But isn't that the point? Kuririn isn't praying to the child of Katatz, he is praying to "God", and anyone watching that scene in the west is going to assume that it's YHVH he's praying to. Hell, the joke itself only really works in that context.

Quick thought: What do they call the Christian God in Japan?

The Norse God thing is a fair comparison. For religions with multiple gods, they tend to get individual names. Thor, Jupiter, etc. Are there any religions with multiple gods where you would still call one of them simply "God", rather than "a god"?

This isn't even an English vs Japanese thing. It's an English vs Japanese vs real-Earth vs DragonBall-Earth thing. In most languages with English as a primary language, "God" refers to the Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc God. I don't think that's true in Japan, but I'm not sure. In the DragonBall universe, they seem to speak about "God" as if he was the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, but in actual fact he's just a green alien dude with the (unrelated) power to make Dragon Balls.

(Also, sorry if I'm coming across as argumentative. I'm actually really enjoying the debates on here. Possibly because I've been having them in my head for the past 15 years, and when I bring them up in the pub I tend to get blank stares and the sounds of chairs slowly being moved backwards.)

[Piccolo Daimao]

And, in the context of the series, "God" with no qualifies refers to the child of Katatz. As others have aforementioned, there are instances that support this, such as when Kuririn prays to God just like a Christian would do, until Piccolo reminds him that "God's just Dende".

But isn't that the point? Kuririn isn't praying to the child of Katatz, he is praying to "God", and anyone watching that scene in the west is going to assume that it's YHVH he's praying to. Hell, the joke itself only really works in that context.

Quick thought: What do they call the Christian God in Japan?

The Norse God thing is a fair comparison. For religions with multiple gods, they tend to get individual names. Thor, Jupiter, etc. Are there any religions with multiple gods where you would still call one of them simply "God", rather than "a god"?

This isn't even an English vs Japanese thing. It's an English vs Japanese vs real-Earth vs DragonBall-Earth thing. In most languages with English as a primary language, "God" refers to the Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc God. I don't think that's true in Japan, but I'm not sure. In the DragonBall universe, they seem to speak about "God" as if he was the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, but in actual fact he's just a green alien dude with the (unrelated) power to make Dragon Balls.

(Also, sorry if I'm coming across as argumentative. I'm actually really enjoying the debates on here. Possibly because I've been having them in my head for the past 15 years, and when I bring them up in the pub I tend to get blank stares and the sounds of chairs slowly being moved backwards.)

I don't really know what more to say, other than everyone pretty much seemed to think of "the God of Earth" as the Judeo-Christian God, until they realized that he was a mystical green alien slug guy. But I guess everyone has different interpretations of even the Judeo-Christian God. They were wrong, but why should they just start calling him something else?

[rereboy]

But isn't that the point? Kuririn isn't praying to the child of Katatz, he is praying to "God", and anyone watching that scene in the west is going to assume that it's YHVH he's praying to. Hell, the joke itself only really works in that context.

Not really... Before they actually met Kami / God, they thought what everybody in Earth thought: they weren't sure if he existed or not (Yajirobe didn't believe Karin at first) but most of those who believed had faith in him and thought of him as a very powerful (if not omnipotent) entity that watched over the planet and them.

When Krillin was praying, he was praying like he would pray before actually meeting Kami and knowing exactly what he does and in what he interferes or can interfere... He was doing it out of habit, a old habit that didn't really make much sense now that he knows all there is to know about Kami / God. And this is what Piccolo points out: Kami / God is just Dende... And that is the joke... That Krillin actually forgot for a moment, that there was no use praying like he used to for such a thing since Kami / God is nothing more than Dende, who can't and won't interfere in what Krillin wants.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But isn't that the point? Kuririn isn't praying to the child of Katatz, he is praying to "God", and anyone watching that scene in the west is going to assume that it's YHVH he's praying to. Hell, the joke itself only really works in that context.

Not really... Before they actually met Kami / God, they thought what everybody in Earth thought: they weren't sure if he existed or not (Yajirobe didn't believe Karin at first) but most of those who believed had faith in him and thought of him as a very powerful (if not omnipotent) entity that watched over the planet and them.

When Krillin was praying, he was praying like he would pray before actually meeting Kami and knowing exactly what he does and in what he interferes or can interfere... He was doing it out of habit, a old habit that didn't really make much sense now that he knows all there is to know about Kami / God. And this is what Piccolo points out: Kami / God is just Dende... And that is the joke... That Krillin actually forgot for a moment, that there was no use praying like he used to for such a thing since Kami / God is nothing more than Dende, who can't and won't interfere in what Krillin wants.

Yeah, that's what I mean, explained better.

[TripleRach]

The same posts get made every time this topic comes up. You guys are correct from a purely logical standpoint, but you also completely ignore the enormous cultural weight behind the word "God" in the US.

It's not that I ignore it. I just care more about accuracy than cultural sensitivities. Not because I'm a heartless jerk, but it seems to me Dragon Ball has dozens of things that should upset ultra-conservative religious folk. If your beliefs prevent you from accepting the green dude being called "God" with no other qualifiers, how can you accept the afterlife system, the demonic characters, the perverted jokes, Trunks probably being born out of wedlock, etc? Toriyama obviously wasn't considering the sensitivities of Abrahamic religions or conservative Americans when writing his story.

Here, we're generally mature adults or teenagers, and I think the majority of us are also familiar with the uncut version of the series, so I don't really see any issue with discussing an alternative use of "God." It's not like I want to hijack the airwaves during the Super Bowl and yell to the entire US, "HE'S GOD, NOT EARTH'S GUARDIAN!"

Quick thought: What do they call the Christian God in Japan?

As far as I know, it's just Kami. It seems to be what's used in Japanese Bibles.

[LiamKav]

The same posts get made every time this topic comes up. You guys are correct from a purely logical standpoint, but you also completely ignore the enormous cultural weight behind the word "God" in the US.

It's not that I ignore it. I just care more about accuracy than cultural sensitivities. Not because I'm a heartless jerk, but it seems to me Dragon Ball has dozens of things that should upset ultra-conservative religious folk. If your beliefs prevent you from accepting the green dude being called "God" with no other qualifiers, how can you accept the afterlife system, the demonic characters, the perverted jokes, Trunks probably being born out of wedlock, etc? Toriyama obviously wasn't considering the sensitivities of Abrahamic religions or conservative Americans when writing his story.

Here, we're generally mature adults or teenagers, and I think the majority of us are also familiar with the uncut version of the series, so I don't really see any issue with discussing an alternative use of "God." It's not like I want to hijack the airwaves during the Super Bowl and yell to the entire US, "HE'S GOD, NOT EARTH'S GUARDIAN!"

I'm fairly agnostic about the whole thing, so my issue isn't "you are offending my religious beliefs", but rather that even for aethiests, "God" is used pretty exclusively in English speaking countries to refer to the Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc god. Other gods get their own names and titles, which sort of exists if we use "Kami, God of Earth", but just saying "God" sounds wrong. Not because it offends any so-called Christian sensibilities, but because it requires me to use a word in English different to how it is normally used.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm fairly agnostic about the whole thing, so my issue isn't "you are offending my religious beliefs", but rather that even for aethiests, "God" is used pretty exclusively in English speaking countries to refer to the Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc god. Other gods get their own names and titles, which sort of exists if we use "Kami, God of Earth", but just saying "God" sounds wrong. Not because it offends any so-called Christian sensibilities, but because it requires me to use a word in English different to how it is normally used.

But, in the context of the series, that's what Kami is named and everyone thought that he was the Judeo-Christian God before Gokuu and co. actually met him in person. And "Kami, God of Earth" misleads people into thinking that "Kami" is the character's name rather than the title: you're basically just saying, "God, God of Earth", which is highly redundant.

"Kami" translates into "God"; it doesn't get simpler than that, and we shouldn't try to complicate things. Just because you may instinctively think of Yahweh when you hear "God" with no qualifiers doesn't mean it's the same guy in the manga that you're reading. This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand. I mean, there's nothing wrong with leaving it untranslated as-is (we do it with other names, albeit inconsistently), but there's nothing wrong with translating it if there's a perfectly valid one either.

I'm trying to make some kind of good comparison to something else in the series, but how about "Piccolo"? It's the name of an instrument in our world, but in their world, it's the Great Demon King's name and means "another world" in Namekian.

[TripleRach]

I'm trying to make some kind of good comparison to something else in the series, but how about "Piccolo"? It's the name of an instrument in our world, but in their world, it's the Great Demon King's name and means "another world" in Namekian.

Another religious example is "Hell." When most English speakers hear that word, they probably think of fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, red devils with pitchforks, etc. But Hell in Dragon Ball is nothing like that. It's just a temporary stop before reincarnation (I guess?), and in the anime it's actually fairly calm and colorful. But I don't see anyone insisting it should be called "Jigoku" instead of "Hell" because of different connotations in everyday English.

And when I hear the word "Earth," I usually think of a planet with seven continents, four oceans, no living dinosaurs, no flying cars, and no talking animals (aside from parrots and stuff). But Dragon Ball's Earth contradicts all of that and more, yet nobody complains that it should be called "Chikyuu" instead of "Earth."

There are all kinds of real world terms that are used a little differently in Dragon Ball, like ki/qi, android, human... It's a fantasy world that embellishes everyday concepts. So if it's not about blasphemy, then I don't understand why "God" can't be used a little differently too.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm trying to make some kind of good comparison to something else in the series, but how about "Piccolo"? It's the name of an instrument in our world, but in their world, it's the Great Demon King's name and means "another world" in Namekian.

Another religious example is "Hell." When most English speakers hear that word, they probably think of fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, red devils with pitchforks, etc. But Hell in Dragon Ball is nothing like that. It's just a temporary stop before reincarnation (I guess?), and in the anime it's actually fairly calm and colorful. But I don't see anyone insisting it should be called "Jigoku" instead of "Hell" because of different connotations in everyday English.

And when I hear the word "Earth," I usually think of a planet with seven continents, four oceans, no living dinosaurs, no flying cars, and no talking animals (aside from parrots and stuff). But Dragon Ball's Earth contradicts all of that and more, yet nobody complains that it should be called "Chikyuu" instead of "Earth."

There are all kinds of real world terms that are used a little differently in Dragon Ball, like ki/qi, android, human... It's a fantasy world that embellishes everyday concepts. So if it's not about blasphemy, then I don't understand why "God" can't be used a little differently too.

Yeah, this exactly. Why should "God" be a special case?

[LiamKav]

That's a fair point, and the only thing I can think of is then why Kami gets this treatment, but Kaiou, Kame Sen'nin and the others don't. Is it purely because it's shorter to type? Also, in your list of favourite techniques you've left them all untranslated? Why should they stay as they are, but Kami get translated?

(Again, not being antagonistic!)

[Puto]

Simmons' subs do indeed translate Kame-Sen'nin. Kaiō is a made up title for Dragon Ball though, so there's a bit more logic in leaving that untranslated than "Kami."

[Piccolo Daimao]

That's a fair point, and the only thing I can think of is then why Kami gets this treatment, but Kaiou, Kame Sen'nin and the others don't. Is it purely because it's shorter to type? Also, in your list of favourite techniques you've left them all untranslated? Why should they stay as they are, but Kami get translated?

Titles such as "Kaiou" and "Kaioushin" are made-up titles for DB, and yes, they're shorter to type, avoids confusion from others, and just look better untranslated.

No-one's naming scheme is entirely consistent anyway.

[VegettoEX]

I think a lot of us are only just recently starting to really take a few steps back and think about how and why we name the characters in terms of spellings and even pronunciations. It's taken many years (literally decades at this point) to get English-speaking fandom to a point where the fans have come in, become educated in the traditional sense (ya' know, like, going to and finishing school), and then going on to actually become fluent in the language the property's originally from. And then have anthropology and linguistics education on top of that. And still be a super-hardcore fan of the franchise that entire time, and not just drop it along the way. The person spelling it "Vejita" in 1994 may be the exact same person spelling it "Vegeta" in 2012. The person spelling it "Gokou" and "Freezer" in 1997 may be the same person spelling them "Goku" and "Freeza" in 2012 (*cough*).

For a few examples, Gaffer Tape is really the lead going with the "Blooma" spelling and pronunciation (and hey, Rach, too!). I want to give Julian credit for "Tullece" (I think there might have been a "Tulece" spelling previously, but let's be honest -- our buddy's the one who popularized it!). For all their inconsistencies and my disagreements with some of their styles, even Viz deserves some credit for simultaneously bucking the trend with character name spellings and adaptations (Vegerot, Pocus) while kowtowing to previous companies and adaptations in the censorship department (Mr. Satan).

And yeah, no-one's fully consistent with how they do things. I've traditionally left "Kaio" and "Kame-Sen'nin" untranslated, but who knows? Maybe I won't in the future. Maybe when we finalize the Kanzenshuu style guide, we'll decide to translate them both. Maybe we'll decide to leave them untranslated. There are somewhat-factual "pros" and "cons" to doing it either way, combined with personal preference reasoning for doing it either way. You can legitimately argue with yourself back-and-forth for certain names and never reach a logical, reigning-champion way to do things.

Dragon Ball is dumb.