Kai marketing sold idea that Z series is a flawed series?

MetroidJunkie · Post by **MetroidJunkie** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:25 pm

One filler I sort of wish they kept was Frieza torturing Krillin at the end of his horn. You could argue it may have dragged the scene on a bit long but it enhanced the heartless monster vibe.

CaBrPi · Post by **CaBrPi** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:59 pm

MetroidJunkie wrote:One filler I sort of wish they kept was Freeza torturing Krillin at the end of his horn. You could argue it may have dragged the scene on a bit long but it enhanced the heartless monster vibe.

Personally, it goes against Freeza's characterization for me. He's always short, sweet (lol), and to the point, unless you have something he wants.

Nex Carnifex · Post by **Nex Carnifex** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:45 am

MetroidJunkie wrote:One filler I sort of wish they kept was Freeza torturing Krillin at the end of his horn. You could argue it may have dragged the scene on a bit long but it enhanced the heartless monster vibe.

Naw I'm glad they made that more like the manga, but what I wish they changed was the flash backs when Cell explains to Piccolo how they got the DNA. The flash back shows Future Trunks when Cell refers to him not taking Trunks DNA as they had enough. Its supposed to be baby Trunks he's referring to as Future Trunks wasn't part of Cell's timeline or else who's time machine did he steal if Future Trunks fixed the future and thus there would be no reason to go back in time, in the future of Cell's timeline.

As far as Z being a flawed series, I think it was definitely in a way, it was full of weird inconsistencies unlike the manga due to the high amount of filler, so I don't think anything was really lost removing the filler besides that one good one where Gohan meets the robot in the cave. Having a faster more exciting pace was just a bonus.

MetroidJunkie · Post by **MetroidJunkie** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:03 am

CaBrPi wrote: Personally, it goes against Freeza's characterization for me. He's always short, sweet (lol), and to the point, unless you have something he wants.

Well, he seemed to be just torturing his targets up to that point, like the Namekian village and Nail. Besides, Frieza stated in the Kai dub that he had hoped to toy with Krillin a bit more, this could've allowed him to do that.

CaBrPi · Post by **CaBrPi** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:29 am

MetroidJunkie wrote:
CaBrPi wrote: Personally, it goes against Freeza's characterization for me. He's always short, sweet (lol), and to the point, unless you have something he wants.
Well, he seemed to be just torturing his targets up to that point, like the Namekian village and Nail.

In both of those cases, he wanted something. The villagers' Dragon Balls, and the knowledge of how to use them from Nail.

MetroidJunkie · Post by **MetroidJunkie** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:01 pm

How about the dialogue where he said he had hoped to toy with Krillin a bit longer? Not to mention, he hadn't shown to be quick on the kill. He was beating Gohan then stepping on his head while taking his sweet time. Later on, he was blasting Piccolo with miniature beams just to make him suffer. Then, he let Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo foolishly try to attack him before actually trying to kill Gohan. Not to mention the brutal torture he gave to Vegeta and, subsequently, Goku when he switched to 50% power.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:54 pm

MetroidJunkie wrote:How about the dialogue where he said he had hoped to toy with Krillin a bit longer? Not to mention, he hadn't shown to be quick on the kill. He was beating Gohan then stepping on his head while taking his sweet time. Later on, he was blasting Piccolo with miniature beams just to make him suffer. Then, he let Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo foolishly try to attack him before actually trying to kill Gohan. Not to mention the brutal torture he gave to Vegeta and, subsequently, Goku when he switched to 50% power.

Yea that basically debunks the Freeza is a quick killer theory.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:31 pm

The reason why I made this thread was no to diss on Kai. I consider Kai a blessing in so many ways. Something fans of Bleach/ One Piece would love to have in a heartbeat. My issue with Kai's marketing is that they consciously set out to imply that DBZ was a poorly done version of what "SHOULD" have been Kai. The tag line "The way it was meant to be seen" is not so much about the filler, but more about the dub.
My beef with this idea is that it's actually convinced people who have not seen DBZ in years to say things like:

1.- "It took Goku between 5-6 episodes to charge the spirit bomb" - Wrong, during the three episodes that dealt with the Genki Dama, only the end of one episode does he start to charge it. The second episode and the start of the third deal with him actually trying to get it right.

2.- Characters take an entire episode to charge up every time- Again, wrong. It's just the fight vs. Freeza coming to mind. Maybe only once or twice you'll see Freeza take maybe 5 minutes of screen time charging his ki. I myself was shocked to see how quickly Freeza's transformations went by. Barely 1-2 minutes at a time. Nowhere in the rest of the series does "charging take an episode". Even before the Freeza fight. All the SSJ power ups are seconds long. It's very common to fans to think they remember the entire series being like the Freeza fight. It's unfortunate, but the fights during the rest of the series are excellently paced in "Z". Piccolo takes maybe 1-2 minutes to charge vs. 17, etc etc etc.

3. "Kai is a non stop adrenaline rush, thus DBZ must have been terribly boring."- Kai's episodes are awesome. Very exciting cliff notes version of "Z". However it doesn't mean "Z" is bad. The tone of the show is very different. In Kai, you pretty much have all action and exposition. It can get kind of tiring after awhile to be honest. Z's episodes might get to the "point" slower, but it brilliantly balances their action with a) some of the best comedy seen in DB and b) creates wonderful character building moments that allow you to become even more emotionally invested. The "filler" in Dragon Ball Z almost always serves to heighten the tension (raises your feelings of anticipation). Ironically, "Z" can be even more entertaining since it gives the show that much more variety by exposing different characters and settings.

AgitoZ · Post by **AgitoZ** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:40 pm

But, Z is incredibly flawed and people have been saying those things (most being hyperboles, but still) for years.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:43 pm

People were saying the first two of your examples years before Kai came along. They're still technically wrong or exaggerating, of course, but still, that's how a lot of people have always felt. In fact, replace "Kai" with "The manga" for point number three and we can probably include that one, too.

Tanooki Kuribo · Post by **Tanooki Kuribo** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:48 am

DragonBall Z and DragonBall Z Kai both have flaws.

::drops mic, walks off stage::

MetroidJunkie · Post by **MetroidJunkie** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:18 am

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:DragonBall Z and DragonBall Z Kai both have flaws.

::drops mic, walks off stage::

Well played, sir.

/Thread

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:17 am

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:DragonBall Z and DragonBall Z Kai both have flaws.

::drops mic, walks off stage::

This implies that their flaws are equal in scale. That is incorrect.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:43 am

Rocketman wrote:
Tanooki Kuribo wrote:DragonBall Z and DragonBall Z Kai both have flaws.

::drops mic, walks off stage::
This implies that their flaws are equal in scale. That is incorrect.

Yes, if anything to end this silly thread.

dbboxkaifan · Post by **dbboxkaifan** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:30 am

Dragon Ball Kai's pace is faster than in Z (great!), but Kai's animation is very inconsistent and the music is too repetitive (the replacement), so the only good thing besides the pace is that some countries got a better dub than before.

Not to forget Dragon Ball Kai didn't finish as the manga originally did.. with Majin Boo's arc.

Despite the boring filler episodes DBK is more flawed than DBZ was.

Edit: Take this as an example of inconsistent animation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV8QiJUBses (00:33)

Gaffer Tape · Post by **Gaffer Tape** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:12 am

Aoi wrote:2.- Characters take an entire episode to charge up every time- Again, wrong. It's just the fight vs. Freeza coming to mind. Maybe only once or twice you'll see Freeza take maybe 5 minutes of screen time charging his ki. I myself was shocked to see how quickly Freeza's transformations went by. Barely 1-2 minutes at a time. Nowhere in the rest of the series does "charging take an episode". Even before the Freeza fight. All the SSJ power ups are seconds long. It's very common to fans to think they remember the entire series being like the Freeza fight. It's unfortunate, but the fights during the rest of the series are excellently paced in "Z". Piccolo takes maybe 1-2 minutes to charge vs. 17, etc etc etc.

I'm pretty much on your side when it comes to Z. I prefer it over Kai, but, while this is still definitely hyperbole, it's also not as quick as you state. I can immediately think of two moments outside of the Freeza fight: when Piccolo charges up his island busting attack, and when Cell undergoes his final transformation. Both of those took up THE ENTIRE FIRST ACT, from title card to commercial break! That's half the show. So, yeah, some attacks/transformations take an ungodly amount of time to occur.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:56 am

Great comments guys. The point of this thread, as I said before, isn't to bash Kai. It's to point out that Kai's marketing has created an exaggerated sense that "Z" was somehow a disaster. Gaffer Tape, you're totally right about the Cell transformation. I think that might have taken 2/3 of the episode. What bugs me is people using that for the entire series.

"Vegeta screams for 23 minutes vs. Goku in the Saiyan saga", when it's not even a minute and a half. Most of the post Freeza power ups are seconds long. Especially the SSJ ones which last maybe less than 5-10 seconds. Over and over you'll have fans exaggerate so much it becomes comical. The worst part is that they'll say it without actually having seen those episodes in 5-10 years. Even if they've said it before, you'll be surprised at how many people (that I've chatted with or met) who have seen the episodes again and were shocked at how well paced they were in the original "Z".

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:06 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Whoever did the redrawn scenes should be fired.

Doesn't one of them browse this forum? Be careful what you saaaaaaaay.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:14 am

The Time Traveller wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Whoever did the redrawn scenes should be fired.
Doesn't one of them browse this forum? Be careful what you saaaaaaaay.

You best be lying?!

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:26 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
The Time Traveller wrote:Doesn't one of them browse this forum? Be careful what you saaaaaaaay.
You best be lying?!

There's a member who belongs to Toei Animation Pilippines.

Kanzenshuu

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