What makes a god, a god

[TonyTheTiger]

The same posts get made every time this topic comes up. You guys are correct from a purely logical standpoint, but you also completely ignore the enormous cultural weight behind the word "God" in the US.

It's not that I ignore it. I just care more about accuracy than cultural sensitivities. Not because I'm a heartless jerk, but it seems to me Dragon Ball has dozens of things that should upset ultra-conservative religious folk. If your beliefs prevent you from accepting the green dude being called "God" with no other qualifiers, how can you accept the afterlife system, the demonic characters, the perverted jokes, Trunks probably being born out of wedlock, etc? Toriyama obviously wasn't considering the sensitivities of Abrahamic religions or conservative Americans when writing his story.

Here, we're generally mature adults or teenagers, and I think the majority of us are also familiar with the uncut version of the series, so I don't really see any issue with discussing an alternative use of "God." It's not like I want to hijack the airwaves during the Super Bowl and yell to the entire US, "HE'S GOD, NOT EARTH'S GUARDIAN!"

Quick thought: What do they call the Christian God in Japan?

As far as I know, it's just Kami. It seems to be what's used in Japanese Bibles.

I don't think people arguing against "God" are doing so solely from a cultural sensitivity angle. Before I make my argument, I'll qualify it by saying I don't think it's nearly so cut and dry and what's about to follow is more of a devil's advocate than anything else.

One aspect of translation I think is incredibly important is to ensure that the target audience has the same cognitive experience that the original audience did when possible and reasonable. So in the case of Dragon Ball, that the average English viewer understands the delivered concept in as close to the same way as the average Japanese viewer did. Sometimes that's not possible or would just be ludicrously awkward and it's one hell of an artform to nail down in any case. But the issue of Kami/God is that the way the Japanese person might recognize "Kami" is not the equivalent to the English speaker's ear for "God" (particularly if it's capitalized). Reason being, "Kami" doesn't exclusively mean God. It's a broader brush and can actually be used for something more akin to "spirit." It's used a lot more freely. The kanji (although with different pronunciation) is even used in the term Shinto (神道). While technically accurate, translating it directly as "God," which doesn't have that same broadness in English, inadvertently creates a much more specific condition of his character. In essence, "God" makes the character sound a hell of a lot more important to the English ear than "神" necessarily would to a Japanese one. It'd be like translating "President of the United States" as "King of America." Or "boss" as "master." Or, the reverse, "servant" as "slave."

The best counterargument that's been presented as far as I know is that Dragon Ball simply rewrites the rules. So regardless of what our world understands as the monotheistic "God," Dragon Ball simply redefines that title for a wrinkly green dude from outer space. And if it were an originally English production where the author chose to call this guy "God" then that's just what it is. Of course since it's not English we really can't be sure one way or the other whether it was actually supposed to rewrite the rules in that way.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think a lot of us are only just recently starting to really take a few steps back and think about how and why we name the characters in terms of spellings and even pronunciations. It's taken many years (literally decades at this point) to get English-speaking fandom to a point where the fans have come in, become educated in the traditional sense (ya' know, like, going to and finishing school), and then going on to actually become fluent in the language the property's originally from. And then have anthropology and linguistics education on top of that. And still be a super-hardcore fan of the franchise that entire time, and not just drop it along the way. The person spelling it "Vejita" in 1994 may be the exact same person spelling it "Vegeta" in 2012. The person spelling it "Gokou" and "Freezer" in 1997 may be the same person spelling them "Goku" and "Freeza" in 2012 (*cough*).

For a few examples, Gaffer Tape is really the lead going with the "Blooma" spelling and pronunciation (and hey, Rach, too!). I want to give Julian credit for "Tullece" (I think there might have been a "Tulece" spelling previously, but let's be honest -- our buddy's the one who popularized it!). For all their inconsistencies and my disagreements with some of their styles, even Viz deserves some credit for simultaneously bucking the trend with character name spellings and adaptations (Vegerot, Pocus) while kowtowing to previous companies and adaptations in the censorship department (Mr. Satan).

And yeah, no-one's fully consistent with how they do things. I've traditionally left "Kaio" and "Kame-Sen'nin" untranslated, but who knows? Maybe I won't in the future. Maybe when we finalize the Kanzenshuu style guide, we'll decide to translate them both. Maybe we'll decide to leave them untranslated. There are somewhat-factual "pros" and "cons" to doing it either way, combined with personal preference reasoning for doing it either way. You can legitimately argue with yourself back-and-forth for certain names and never reach a logical, reigning-champion way to do things.

Dragon Ball is dumb.

Yeah, Gaffer Tape's actually the reason that I've recently begun using "Blooma". I'd seen discussions on whether or not "Bulma" was entirely accurate, and while it's by no means inaccurate, I just prefer how "Blooma" better gets the pun across and goes in line with the more blatant "puns" of her children, "Trunks" and "Bra".

I also switched to using "Kakarotto" just so "Vegetto" would make sense to me (it's my half-assed attempt at some kind of internal consistency with my naming scheme). And if I translated "Kaiou", then that would mean I'd have to translate "Kaiouken", and just how would you do that without making it sound too wordy. "The Fist of the Lord of the Worlds"? Shouting that out in the middle of a battle sounds even more retarded than "Kamehameha". And "Fist of the Worlds" isn't even a full translation; it's akin to "King Kai".

Same for "Kame-sennin". Ideally, if "Kamehameha" gets its "Kame" part from its creator, then why take that way by using the translation "Turtle Hermit/Sage"? Then again, it's not as if it's vital. But his other title "Muten Roushi" is something like "The Invincible Old Master", which sounds a little bit generic and unspecific. "Kaiou", "Kaioushin" and "Kame-sennin" are all made-up titles for the series, and it'd just feel awkward to say them in general discussion any other way. Even Viz itself switches between "Kaiou" and "The Lord of the Worlds" in the manga. I think they're pretty consistent with "The Lord of Lords", but again, that's not a full translation of "Kaioushin" and you'd be asking yourself: which lords? It should be obvious in the series itself, but just stepping back and looking at it from a logical perspective, it's not really specific.

So yeah. It's quite interesting.

I don't think people arguing against "God" are doing so solely from a cultural sensitivity angle. Before I make my argument, I'll qualify it by saying I don't think it's nearly so cut and dry and what's about to follow is more of a devil's advocate than anything else.

One aspect of translation I think is incredibly important is to ensure that the target audience has the same cognitive experience that the original audience did when possible and reasonable. So in the case of Dragon Ball, that the average English viewer understands the delivered concept in as close to the same way as the average Japanese viewer did. Sometimes that's not possible or would just be ludicrously awkward and it's one hell of an artform to nail down in any case. But the issue of Kami/God is that the way the Japanese person might recognize "Kami" is not the equivalent to the English speaker's ear for "God" (particularly if it's capitalized). Reason being, "Kami" doesn't exclusively mean God. It's a broader brush and can actually be used for something more akin to "spirit." It's used a lot more freely. The kanji (although with different pronunciation) is even used in the term Shinto (神道). While technically accurate, translating it directly as "God," which doesn't have that same broadness in English, inadvertently creates a much more specific condition of his character. In essence, "God" makes the character sound a hell of a lot more important to the English ear than "神" necessarily would to a Japanese one. It'd be like translating "President of the United States" as "King of America." Or "boss" as "master." Or, the reverse, "servant" as "slave."

The best counterargument that's been presented as far as I know is that Dragon Ball simply rewrites the rules. So regardless of what our world understands as the monotheistic "God," Dragon Ball simply redefines that title for a wrinkly green dude from outer space. And if it were an originally English production where the author chose to call this guy "God" then that's just what it is. Of course since it's not English we really can't be sure one way or the other whether it was actually supposed to rewrite the rules in that way.

Hmmm. I never thought of it like that. I guess there is no "perfect" translation, but that's how it is with a lot of things (like the "budou" joke between Gokuu and Kuririn before they started training under Muten Roushi; Viz adapted it to something to do with "stomach"). I just never saw it as that big a deal.

[TonyTheTiger]

The wordiness that comes along with direct translations is what makes a lot of this harder. Because, let's face it, most of us go by our ear and what sounds right. Unless we're fine with everything sounding like Speed Racer, we really have no choice but to fudge it once in a while.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The wordiness that comes along with direct translations is what makes a lot of this harder. Because, let's face it, most of us go by our ear and what sounds right. Unless we're fine with everything sounding like Speed Racer, we really have no choice but to fudge it once in a while.

Yeah, and besides, a lot of English names have actual meanings too, but it's not as if we literally translate them. I think Mike gave this example a while ago, and I'm not sure whether or not it entirely applies here or if it's the best example, but it's not as if people would go around calling him "Who is like God?"

[VegettoEX]

I'll have you call me "He who is akin to Kami", thank you very much.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'll have you call me "He who is akin to Kami", thank you very much.

Piccolo?

[JulieYBM]

I think it was Herms' Pun Guide(s) that really got me thinking more about how I spell the characters' names. It definitely helped get me in gear with switching to 'Blooma', Darbra, and anything else I'm forgetting. Like I've say before recently, I'm still sort of going back-and-forth on a few titles. Sometimes I feel like 'Turtle Sage' over 'Kame-sen'nin', sometimes I just want to maintain some continuity and use all untranslated titles.

I definitely support Blooma-ers. I think it'd be a great thing if we could make this a real net-wide revolution of sorts. Gaffer, myself, Piccolo Daimao, and of course Rach...we're the starting point. It'd be cool if Kanzenshuu joined in.

[Bussani]

I don't think people arguing against "God" are doing so solely from a cultural sensitivity angle. Before I make my argument, I'll qualify it by saying I don't think it's nearly so cut and dry and what's about to follow is more of a devil's advocate than anything else.

One aspect of translation I think is incredibly important is to ensure that the target audience has the same cognitive experience that the original audience did when possible and reasonable. So in the case of Dragon Ball, that the average English viewer understands the delivered concept in as close to the same way as the average Japanese viewer did. Sometimes that's not possible or would just be ludicrously awkward and it's one hell of an artform to nail down in any case. But the issue of Kami/God is that the way the Japanese person might recognize "Kami" is not the equivalent to the English speaker's ear for "God" (particularly if it's capitalized). Reason being, "Kami" doesn't exclusively mean God. It's a broader brush and can actually be used for something more akin to "spirit." It's used a lot more freely. The kanji (although with different pronunciation) is even used in the term Shinto (神道). While technically accurate, translating it directly as "God," which doesn't have that same broadness in English, inadvertently creates a much more specific condition of his character. In essence, "God" makes the character sound a hell of a lot more important to the English ear than "神" necessarily would to a Japanese one. It'd be like translating "President of the United States" as "King of America." Or "boss" as "master." Or, the reverse, "servant" as "slave."

If anything, what you've said only makes me think it should be translated to "God" even more. Remember, they're not calling him "a god", or "a kami"--he is the Kami-sama. Everyone reacts to him as if he is that one guy you pray to in times of need. It's hard to see how calling him anything but "God" would capture the understanding a Japanese reader/viewer would get from this.

[LiamKav]

The person spelling it "Vejita" in 1994 may be the exact same person spelling it "Vegeta" in 2012. The person spelling it "Gokou" and "Freezer" in 1997 may be the same person spelling them "Goku" and "Freeza" in 2012 (*cough*).

I always got the impression that a lot of the alternative names that were flying around 10 years ago were a bit of a reaction to FUNimation. "Well, if they're going to spell it "Goku" is must be wrong, therefore I will use "Podu" instead to show my 733t Japanese skillz."

This is, incidentally, why I use "Goku" rather than any of the alternative spellings that show the pronounciation better. He's been called "Goku" in the US for close to twenty years at this point. Pretty much everyone knows how to pronounce his name. Spelling it differently would be like suddenly spelling the name "Math-hew" because you think that carries the ponounciation better. At some point, the pronounciation becomes tied to the word and you then get the cognitive dissonance from seeing 30 different spellings of something that everyone pronounces the same way anyway.

A difference between DragonBall and something like Transformers is that the former is essentially a "dead" (or at least "resting") franchise. Transformers is full of situations where fan terms for things (such as the Decepticon jets being called "Seekers") gets put into the canon, because the fans grow up and work on the show. This obviously can't happen in DragonBall, so at no point while "Zenkai" ever become the official term for the near-death power-up, no matter how often people use it. Likewise, it's pretty unlikely that Toriyama will ever come up with an official list of English name spellings, and even if he did we'd still argue ("Bulma") and he'd probably change his mind a few times anyway (Kulilin-Kuririn).

Or, tl;dr

Just because it's the common way of spelling it, doesn't mean it's wrong.


Dragon Ball is dumb.[/quote]

I thought we were going with "DragonBall" on this site?

[LiamKav]

If anything, what you've said only makes me think it should be translated to "God" even more. Remember, they're not calling him "a god", or "a kami"--he is the Kami-sama. Everyone reacts to him as if he is that one guy you pray to in times of need. It's hard to see how calling him anything but "God" would capture the understanding a Japanese reader/viewer would get from this.

That does make sense. What I suppose is a bit odd is that everyone keeps calling him "God" when it's clear that he's just (and I'm going to get technical here), "some dude".

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think it was Herms' Pun Guide(s) that really got me thinking more about how I spell the characters' names. It definitely helped get me in gear with switching to 'Blooma', Darbra, and anything else I'm forgetting. Like I've say before recently, I'm still sort of going back-and-forth on a few titles. Sometimes I feel like 'Turtle Sage' over 'Kame-sen'nin', sometimes I just want to maintain some continuity and use all untranslated titles.

I definitely support Blooma-ers. I think it'd be a great thing if we could make this a real net-wide revolution of sorts. Gaffer, myself, Piccolo Daimao, and of course Rach...we're the starting point. It'd be cool if Kanzenshuu joined in.

Yeah, Herms' Name Pun Round-up got me thinking about how I spell the characters' names as well. I'm still going to use "Dabra", because it's pretty much taken directly from "abracadabra", just like I go with "Bibbidi", "Bobbodi" and "Boo because they were taken from the magic phrase "Bibbidi-Bobbodi-Boo" in Disney's Cinderella.

But most renditions of Blooma's name are fine.

If anything, what you've said only makes me think it should be translated to "God" even more. Remember, they're not calling him "a god", or "a kami"--he is the Kami-sama. Everyone reacts to him as if he is that one guy you pray to in times of need. It's hard to see how calling him anything but "God" would capture the understanding a Japanese reader/viewer would get from this.

That does make sense. What I suppose is a bit odd is that everyone keeps calling him "God" when it's clear that he's just (and I'm going to get technical here), "some dude".

He's still a god, their god, the God of Earth, who has godly powers. Just because your relationship with someone changes doesn't mean that you start calling them an entirely different name. I mean, what else would they call him, when he doesn't even know his own name himself? It's just convenient. None of them even knew that he was the child of Katatz until the Great Elder told Kuririn.

And yeah, Kuririn prays to God in one instances, until Piccolo has to remind him that "God's just Dende". So it still applies. The only thing that's changed is that the God they knew before isn't the God they know now, but it'd be pointless to call him otherwise.

[Bussani]

Yeah, it's still his job/title. I suppose they could call him God of Earth, but it's a bit redundant. Of course, they barely ever call Dende by his title, so there's that.

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah, it's weird. I'm getting the implication from a few people (or almost outright stating it), that Kami's/God's godhood somehow came into question when it was revealed he was an alien (due to statements like, "Just some slug-like alien," or, "Turns out he was just some guy.") But what does his alien nature have to do with anything? Based on what we know of what makes someone God in this universe, it has no bearing. From the time we're introduced to him, we learn that Gods are succeeded and chosen by the previous God (and out of universe, Toriyama admitted he had decided they were aliens right when he introduced God). So why does the revelation that he's an alien diminish that? It's not as if he had mystical powers that people confused as being godlike, only to later find out he's an alien. It's the same with Piccolo, and it's the reason the Demon Guide was created. It's not as if people confused him with a demon. He's just an alien who happened to become a demon as well. And it's the same with God. He's an alien who happened to become God.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Of course, they barely ever call Dende by his title, so there's that.

I think it's because, with Dende, they actually knew his true name before he became God, whereas with the child of Katatz, they never knew his true name (or, really, anything about him other than his connection to Daimaou and the DBs) before or after he became God, and he can't even remember it himself.

[TonyTheTiger]

If anything, what you've said only makes me think it should be translated to "God" even more. Remember, they're not calling him "a god", or "a kami"--he is the Kami-sama. Everyone reacts to him as if he is that one guy you pray to in times of need. It's hard to see how calling him anything but "God" would capture the understanding a Japanese reader/viewer would get from this.

But he's not actually that important. Within the context of Dragon Ball, "Kami-sama" has dominion over a single planet and the characters don't seem to think or expect otherwise, not really being too thrown off when higher powers eventually show up. And I'm certainly no expert but from my understanding, the "Kami" in the Shinto religion all have their own authority. Meanwhile, capital-G "God" implies a hell of a lot more than that in the English speaking world. What if, to pick another character, instead of "Kaio-sama" he was named something also using the word "Kami"? Then what do we call him? Super God?

[VegettoEX]

So Namu probably wouldn't believe in him or think of him as "God", but a good portion of the planet would (at least we're led to believe that, I suppose). I don't think there's an issue with that. You're basically still solidifying the reasoning for calling him "God".

If "Kaio-sama" was named something other than "Kaio-sama", we would think about what to name him in that case. If he were "Chou Kami", yeah, maybe we'd call him "Super God". But he's not, so we won't. Seems like a tiny bit of a red herring you're tossing out there.

I'm with Bussani/Gaffer/etc. in that I think people are getting too hung up on coming into things already knowing that Child of Katatz -> onward is Namekian. That doesn't change anything. Bender is an abusive alcoholic robot from Earth, but he's still God.

[TonyTheTiger]

Well, I don't think it's much of a red herring since it's unlikely that the English speaker's ear for "God" is the same as a Japanese ear for "Kami." And something like "Chou Kami" might make more sense than "Super God" which...really doesn't given the understanding of "God." By calling him God you'd be taking what was originally a broader concept and pigeonholing it into a very specific one. Japanese viewers of Dragon Ball presumably didn't have to think "Oh, so instead of the Kami-sama as we understand him/it/etc., we've got this reworked concept." But an English viewer essentially does have to do that. So for all the accuracy of the translation, it misses the mark of getting the concept across. Again, you wouldn't tell somebody that the President of the United States is "King of America" and then expect the listener to figure "Oh, well it's a different application of 'king' then."

[VegettoEX]

What accuracy is it not conveying? He's a being ostensibly in control of the planet with a bunch of inhabitants where the majority of them would consider what he has to be "supernatural" powers (in that he can do plenty of things they cannot do -- healing, flight, create clothing, create magical objects) and chooses to intervene or not with their continued existence (train fighters to protect the planet from invasion) while (quite literally) looking down upon them from "the heavens".

Sounds like "God" to me as I've grown up to understand the concept.

[TonyTheTiger]

The Judeo-Christian "God" (which is what the term is understood as when heard by most English speakers) is generally understood to be omniscient, onmipresent and omnipotent. That's not just one interpretation of many, as opposed to the many "Kami" of the Shinto faith. English speaker hears/reads "God" > understands "God" as the Judeo-Christian one > sees something unrelated to the concept. As opposed to: Japanese speaker hears/reads "Kami-sama" > understands "Kami" under Shinto concepts > sees no real conflict whatsoever.

Taking "God," which is inherently monotheistic as understood by English speakers, and using it without qualification for an ostensibly polytheistic concept muddies an issue that should otherwise be perfectly natural.

[VegettoEX]

And he is that as far as Earth's inhabitants are concerned. That's exactly who it is they're praying to, and what they think is up there. That's what he's named, and that's what they call him. It's what you as the viewer also thought and knew for... *checks*... 170-odd episodes.

For all the Judeo-Christian population knows, there is/are a realm of Kaioshin up above their "God", but he's still "God" to them because it's all they know.