What makes a god, a god

[TonyTheTiger]

If there was supposed to be some 'gotcha' where they were actually applying the Judeo-Christian concept as opposed to a polytheistic one and then "boom!" more gods, then fine. Although we really don't know for sure either way. It's not like the characters spend much time engaging in theological discourse. I'm honestly not sure what a Japanese person "hears" when they hear "Kami-sama." Whether or not they necessarily interpret it as "monotheistic omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent entity" or "Shinto spirit with authority that may actually not be omniscient or omnipotent." But it's really that issue that concerns me. I don't really care what the in-universe characters think. What I care about is what the Japanese viewer thinks and expects upon hearing "Kami-sama," even if those expectations may be broad and numerous. What I want is for the English audience to think and expect the same thing (even the broadness) by default. I'm not discounting the possibility that "God" does just that. I just think there's a good argument that it doesn't.

Interestingly enough, take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami#Shinto_belief
"Traditionally, kami possess two souls, one gentle (nigi-mitama) and the other assertive (ara-mitama)."

Sounds familiar.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Interestingly enough, take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami#Shinto_belief
"Traditionally, kami possess two souls, one gentle (nigi-mitama) and the other assertive (ara-mitama)."

Sounds familiar.

Yeah, like the Judeo-Christian/Western concept of God and Satan/the Devil, the latter of whom coming from the former. See, it works. Not entirely, but sometimes not everything can come through in translation. But "God" is the best translation we've got, and there's no reason to not translate it. People can continue using "Kami" or "God"; whatever's their prerogative. But neither one is wrong (although that may not be what you were arguing, just the accuracy of the term).

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: TonyTheTiger

I'd say the flaw in your argument is that the Japanese think of exactly what this character is when they think of God. To just take the first character we're introduced to with that position, do they think of a powerful old martial artist in robes who lives in a palace floating above the sky, who looks down on the world's inhabitants, who creates wish-granting orbs, who created the devil out of his own cast off thoughts, can possess and give martial arts powers to a host body, can recreate bodies for the dead, can petition the gatekeeper between worlds where a certain soul can go where he dies, and who works with a genie-like attendant? If the concept says no to ANY of the above, then the Japanese audience has to adjust their perception of God to fit the fictional mythology created in Dragon Ball, no different than an American audience has to.

When I was 12 or 13 and first found out what the word "Kami" meant, it did give me reason for pause, based on my Judeo-Christian upbringing. But I quickly got over it. It certainly never confused me. It only gave me pause in that knee-jerk reaction way that calling something else "God" was disrespectful. But it never caused me to think, "Gee, this guy can't be 'God' because he's not exactly like what I've been taught to believe 'God' is." It would never have even occurred to me that Dragon Ball was trying to tell me that that's the Judeo-Christian God. But at the same time, people seem to have no problem accepting that Family Guy's interpretation of God is supposed to be the Judeo-Christian God even though he certainly doesn't act like one would hope God would. But he's presented as an old white guy with a long beard and flowing robes and mystical powers, so, hey, God, right?

Like Mike said, there are certainly enough similarities in his function and abilities that I can see how the term applies to him. In addition, my knowledge of the word 'god' as a general term used in other cultures solidifies even more that he fits within that extremely broad definition. Dragon Ball's world is different from our world, and its god is different from our accepted definition of God, but the concept, again, a very, very broad concept, is enough to get what he's going for in this fictional mythology.

[TonyTheTiger]

Interestingly enough, take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami#Shinto_belief
"Traditionally, kami possess two souls, one gentle (nigi-mitama) and the other assertive (ara-mitama)."

Sounds familiar.

Yeah, like the Judeo-Christian/Western concept of God and Satan/the Devil, the latter of whom coming from the former. See, it works. Not entirely, but sometimes not everything can come through in translation. But "God" is the best translation we've got, and there's no reason to not translate it. People can continue using "Kami" or "God"; whatever's their prerogative. But neither one is wrong (although that may not be what you were arguing, just the accuracy of the term).

I think that's more of a stretch. God and Satan aren't exactly considered part of the same being. At least not exclusively so. Satan just happens to be one entity of many (everything) that is supposed to have come into existence by God. Point is, upon hearing "Kami-sama" a Japanese person might instinctively "get it." Hearing "God" an English speaker doesn't. You're right that not every single concept can be translated. But in this case I think it actually can if we understand a Shinto "kami" as a different entity from a western "God." Granted, I admit that just calling the guy Kami in English won't automatically confer that understanding to people who aren't familiar with the concept but it retains the possiblity for a bilingual bonus while "God" practically erases it completely. No right answer is pretty much par for the course. But that's why translation is an art. Sure, we could all just not talk about it at all and conclude right away that there are many viable options in translation but where's the fun in that?

Dragon Ball's world is different from our world, and its god is different from our accepted definition of God, but the concept, again, a very, very broad concept, is enough to get what he's going for in this fictional mythology.

This is where I think we're splitting. I not only accept that Dragon Ball's mythology is unique, I actually enjoy that fact. The thing is, with this particular case, I'm not entirely convinced it matters. We've seen Toriyama effectively make up words or repurpose things for his own use. Nobody is going to suggest that upon hearing "Mr. Satan" an English speaker will think he is literally the devil. But "kami" has a particular (and broad) meaning in Shinto culture that "God" lacks in English. I'm just saying that upon hearing capital-G "God," given it's innate meaning in the English speaking world, may not confer the same idea that a Japanese audience would get from "Kami-sama" even if neither completely match what Toriyama created. But the broadness of "kami" vs. the specificity of "God" might trip that up even further.

Yes, maybe both audiences will see it the same way. But it doesn't seem to be especially obvious given Shinto and Judeo-Christian concepts are fairly distinct.

[Gaffer Tape]

Even if that were true, you're forgetting one thing: the name isn't all there is. It's funny you bring up Mr. Satan. If you had no knowledge of Dragon Ball and were told that in it, there was a character named Mr. Satan, you most likely would assume he was the devil or a parody of the devil, maybe akin to Him from The Powerpuff Girls. But actually getting to know Dragon Ball, you would know who and what Mr. Satan was. Now, maybe, similarly, you non-Dragon Ball fan is told there is a "God" character in the series, and your experiences immediately give you an impression of what that character is. But if you actually have knowledge of the series, then you do learn what godhood in the Dragon Ball world entails, why he is called that, and how the term is applied. Your preconceived notions aren't really important in the grand scheme of things. Everyone has them, including the Japanese, and, as I said in my last post, their preconceived ideas of the term "kami" are most likely not entirely compatible with this character either. What matters is how it is actually applied in context. So maybe different audiences are coming in with different expectations, but they all come out with the same knowledge.

[TonyTheTiger]

True, yeah. I'm certainly not arguing that preconceived notions of "God" are exclusively why it shouldn't be used. I'm just saying that despite the wackiness of Dragon Ball mythology, "Kami-sama" to a Japanese audience may create different notions than "God" does for an English one even if they both equally differ from what we get in Dragon Ball. And what I like to see in translation is when the notions are closer in line with each other when possible.

Like, if both Japanese and English speakers have to get to B but the Japanese speakers get there starting from A and the English speakers from C, then that's what "Kami-sama" vs. "God" does. And when necessary that works just fine. But I think the best translations start everybody at A.

[VegettoEX]

I'm just saying that despite the wackiness of Dragon Ball mythology, "Kami-sama" to a Japanese audience may create different notions than "God" does for an English one."

So would simply hearing the word "god" in English without any additional context and knowing if it was capitalized in the sentence it's a part of.

And that's why I keep bringing up the in-universe population and your impression as a reader of the series. It's perfectly clear that when anyone in Dragon Ball says "Kami-sama", they're referring to what they believe to be an omnipotent being that looks over their planet and has mystical/magical powers. They're praying to that "God", and when they get to train with "God", it's a big effin' deal!

It doesn't matter what the other implications or meanings of "kami" are, because it's made clear in the series and its context what they want it to mean.

True, we later learn it's a green alien dude who split off his evil half, re-merged, and then passed down the job to a kid from his home planet far off in the cosmos... but he's still "God"...!

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: TonyTheTiger

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. You said it wasn't preconceived notions that bothered you, but that it giving a different impression bothers you. But again, it's only going to cause a different impression through preconceived notions. Once a fan has any more knowledge of the subject beyond their preconceived notions, they're all going to come out the other side with nearly the exact same perception, individual mindsets notwithstanding.

Again, to a non-Dragon Ball fan, Satan is just the devil. To a Dragon Ball fan, it's that silly afro'd character who makes a fool of himself. To a non-Dragon Ball fan, piccolo is a small flute. To a Dragon Ball fan, it's that tall green guy in a turban who rarely smiles. And to a non-Dragon Ball fan, "God" can mean whatever your culture dictates "God" means. But to a Dragon Ball fan, in a Dragon Ball context, it refers to that guy or that job title of worldly overseer with magical powers, ability of possession, and certain control over the dead, among others. And that's not going to change no matter where you come from.

[TonyTheTiger]

When I say "preconceived notions" what I mean is in response to the cultural sensitivity angle that calling a wrinkly green guy "God" is somehow offensive. I don't think that has to even play into the equation.

I'm just saying that despite the wackiness of Dragon Ball mythology, "Kami-sama" to a Japanese audience may create different notions than "God" does for an English one."

So would simply hearing the word "god" in English without any additional context and knowing if it was capitalized in the sentence it's a part of.

And that's why I keep bringing up the in-universe population and your impression as a reader of the series. It's perfectly clear that when anyone in Dragon Ball says "Kami-sama", they're referring to what they believe to be an omnipotent being that looks over their planet and has mystical/magical powers. They're praying to that "God", and when they get to train with "God", it's a big effin' deal!

It doesn't matter what the other implications or meanings of "kami" are, because it's made clear in the series and its context what they want it to mean.

True, we later learn it's a green alien dude who split off his evil half, re-merged, and then passed down the job to a kid from his home planet far off in the cosmos... but he's still "God"...!

Yes, to all of those things. But pretty much all of that is in-universe which repurposes stuff all the time. I'm not saying that it's impossible to repurpose "God." What I'm saying is that the audience's interpretation of the specific repurposing of "kami" may differ from the English speaker's interpretation of the repurposing of "God." Lowercase "god"? Well there are the idiosyncracies of the language for you. Usually in that case it's a generic term that's qualified with something like "god of thunder."

[Piccolo Daimao]

When I say "preconceived notions" what I mean is in response to the cultural sensitivity angle that calling a wrinkly green guy "God" is somehow offensive. I don't think that has to even play into the equation.

Well, screw cultural sensitivities. On the whole, people in general don't and shouldn't care about that kind of stuff.

I think we're going nowhere here. It's an interesting discussion, don't get me wrong, but I think all parties have said what's needed to have been said.

[VegettoEX]

I think it's going plenty of places :/. It's not like anyone's in a bitter argument, or anything. I love hearing and reading all this, and I fully plan on mining it for a podcast episode in the future .

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think it's going plenty of places :/. It's not like anyone's in a bitter argument, or anything. I love hearing and reading all this, and I fully plan on mining it for a podcast episode in the future .

I know, but it just feels as if we're going in circles. I think the point about Kuririn praying to God has been reiterated about five times.

[Gaffer Tape]

Like, if both Japanese and English speakers have to get to B but the Japanese speakers get there starting from A and the English speakers from C, then that's what "Kami-sama" vs. "God" does. And when necessary that works just fine. But I think the best translations start everybody at A.

But a translation can't start everybody at A. Even taking works into account where there is no language barrier and therefore no translation to worry about, nobody starts at the exact same point. Two people sit down to watch Back to the Future. Both of them have different notions of how time travel should work. Well, who cares? This is how Back to the Future does it, and they have to get to point B whether they come from point A or point kazoo. There's no way a writer, a translator, or anybody else is going to be able to make any two people have the exact same ideas BEFORE coming into the work.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, translation's quite an art form, and people have different ideas of what they think will work best for themselves and/or whatever audience.

[TonyTheTiger]

Like, if both Japanese and English speakers have to get to B but the Japanese speakers get there starting from A and the English speakers from C, then that's what "Kami-sama" vs. "God" does. And when necessary that works just fine. But I think the best translations start everybody at A.

But a translation can't start everybody at A. Even taking works into account where this is no language barrier and therefore no translation to worry about, nobody starts at the exact same point. Two people sit down to watch Back to the Future. Both of them have different notions of how time travel should work. Well, who cares? This is how Back to the Future does it, and they have to get to point B whether they come from point A or point kazoo. There's no way a writer, a translator, or anybody else is going to be able to make any two people have the exact same ideas BEFORE coming into the work.

I actually think it can. Maybe not in every situation under the sun but a creative translator can come pretty close pretty often. I remember the Magic Knight Rayearth dub. Not a particularly good dub but took some creative license for what I happen to think helped get the concept across in one rather sticky situation. In the original, the character Caldina spoke with a particular dialect from a region in Japan and the other characters pointed it out, even naming the dialect (which the audience was meant to recognize before the characters named it). The dub gave her a southern accent and had the conversation within that context. I think that starts both audiences at A. Both audiences recognize she's speaking with an accent, recognize the particular accent, and then the characters bring it up. Meanwhile if the characters, in English, said that she was speaking in a particular Japanese dialect...well, welcome to starting at C, or D...or Y.

I know I differ from a lot of people on that. But getting concepts across and ensuring the viewing experience between audiences is the same is what I tend to value most.

[Gaffer Tape]

See, I disagree. Your example doesn't START them at the same point. It BRINGS them to the same point. It brings them to the all-fabled B. But where someone starts is based entirely on their life experiences, so a writer has no control over that. In the debate about to god or not to god, it doesn't seem you're entirely debating about how the translation or lack thereof works, but the fact that people start at different places in terms of how they perceive God or a god. But there's no way to change that. It's impossible. The only thing a writer or translator has any power over is how they present the idea in the story, not how an audience perceived the idea before they entered it. And in that case, honestly, the name or title isn't extremely important as is properly conveying the context in the series. I think translating it gives it a better context than not translating it because the concept is similar enough, but since those ideas get left at the door once the author introduces his/her own concept, calling it God isn't any more detrimental than naming the turtle God.

[TonyTheTiger]

I dunno. I think bringing them to the same point could be done had they just named the Japanese dialect. The English audience "gets it" in the end. "She's speaking with an accent." What they miss out on is the starting point and only figure it out in retrospect after they're told. I realize that's not the same issue with Kami/God but I just thought I'd bring it up to give context of where I'm coming from. If the Japanese audience hears "Kami-sama" and takes a certain trip that eventually ends with "green guy from outer space" that trip they take might not match up with the English speaker's trip starting from "God." I'm not even saying that there's a perfect English analogue where an English speaker could definitely take the same trip. I was just pointing out that "God" might not serve the purpose any better than any of the alternatives.

[VegettoEX]

But he wasn't a Namekian when you first met him (and you didn't even know what he looked like at all for a while after he's first mentioned), the same way Goku wasn't a Saiyan named "Kakarrot" when you first met him. Even after you know about them and their back-history so many hundreds of chapters later, they're still "God" and "Goku", though.

[TonyTheTiger]

But he wasn't a Namekian when you first met him (and you didn't even know what he looked like at all for a while after he's first mentioned), the same way Goku wasn't a Saiyan named "Kakarrot" when you first met him. Even after you know about them and their back-history so many hundreds of chapters later, they're still "God" and "Goku", though.

Yeah, embellishments, retcons, and odd revelations are obviously plot important and what came before doesn't cease to be relevant. I certainly wouldn't want to see a translation where Goku is referred to as a Saiyan from the very beginning or for some reason isn't revealed as a Saiyan at all in order to retain the status quo. But even when we're first introduced to "Kami-sama"/"God" something triggers in the audience's mind since they aren't made up words. If he were named Borgon or something there'd be no debate. I'd just want to see the "trigger" be as close as possible across languages, especially if the "trigger" is meant to have some importance as time goes on such as that Wiki quote I posted above.

The fact that by the time he fuses with Piccolo we know him to be a green alien who isn't especially supernatural (comparatively speaking) doesn't really matter. That's not the reason calling him "God" might be inappropriate. Have you ever seen South Park's God?

[roidrage]

When I say "preconceived notions" what I mean is in response to the cultural sensitivity angle that calling a wrinkly green guy "God" is somehow offensive. I don't think that has to even play into the equation.

Well, screw cultural sensitivities. On the whole, people in general don't and shouldn't care about that kind of stuff.

When and if cultural sensitivities are a key part of your identity as an individual and human being, you lose a part of yourself if you stop caring about them. Not everyone wants that.

I don't object to calling Kami "God"; hell, the arguments I've read here are starting to convince me to personally do so. I just don't think that your mindset is going to convince anyone who isn't already convinced.