Daizenshuu 7 on Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Don't use the "inside boo" excuse since Boo had already established Goku couldn't beat him when he was far far smaller than a flea.

Unless if I'm wrong, Boo didn't say that they couldn't beat him because of that, but he said that they couldn't open a hole to escape. Goku said that they couldn't beat Boo, and that Fusion is their only hope. Then, Evil Boo started getting even stronger when he reverted into S. Kaioshin Boo, but his power fell when he turned into Pure Boo, making Goku confident that he could beat him.
Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Bussani]

Unless if I'm wrong, Boo didn't say that they couldn't beat him because of that, but he said that they couldn't open a hole to escape. Goku said that they couldn't beat Boo, and that Fusion is their only hope.

Pretty much. Goku said that they had no chance against Evil Buu before it was mentioned that their size impaired them at all. Nothing implies that Goku was referring to their size when he said it, and he seemed pretty surprised to learn that he couldn't blast a hole out of Buu, so I doubt he was meant to be taking it into account. As for Gotenks, like I said earlier, it always felt to me that the manga was building him up right from the start. Everyone was blown away when he first appeared, with Kame-sennin saying it was like a storm or torrent of ki. It doesn't make much sense to me if he were only, say, somewhat more powerful than the other Saiyans in their regular forms.

But eh, Buu arc powers are all sorts of confusing.

[hleV]

Why must we follow one fan interpretation so that it makes everyone else happy.

It's a good idea to follow the interpretation which makes the most sense. To people who can thing logically and have thought this through, at least.

If Goku, the franchises main character were to truly be surpassed, then it would have been stated.

This argument is simply invalid. Toriyama doesn't have to state anything for something to be true.

This quote speaks for itself and verifies to us that Gotenks is in fact weaker than Goku.

No, it doesn't.

It is referring to the highest power Gotenks has achieved after training in the Rosat.

No, it doesn't.

Especially when Gotenks mentions achieving Ssj3 right before Piccolo enters with Boo but in a very vague way. We must remember that Goku was taking Gotenks as a huge gamble.

So either Goku knew what power Metamorian Fusion grants (he had seen it in the afterlife, after all) and believes that SSJ Gotenks would be able to destroy Fat Boo, or he just went "Fuck this, I'm outta here. Maybe the kids can save the world". Do you really find the latter theory more likely?

That resulted into chaos until Gotenks went ssj3.

Well obviously, because Evil Boo was much stronger than Fat Boo.

Piccolo even confesses such and says he didn't think he would be able to do so much as it was true.

... What?

Goku told Piccolo his secret so the others wouldn't worry as much while he is away.

... What?

Boo was toying with Gotenks just as Pure boo was toying with Goku.

Evil Boo was getting his ass kicked hard by SSJ3 Gotenks.
Goku was fighting equally with Pure Boo.

Piccolo never once said that Gotenks ssj could beat Fat boo. All he said was that he was stronger than everyone at the lookout, including himself.

When Piccolo entered ROSAT, he thought that base Gotenks may be able to defeat Evil Boo. So go ahead and take Piccolo's words for everything as you've been doing so far.

This quote says "Vegeta and the others", not "Goku and the others".

Goku has SSJ3, so he's 4 times stronger than Vegeta. And Daizenshuu didn't necessary talk about Gotenks' SSJ3 form.

The daizenshuu's then state that Gohan "has power surpassing Gotenks". (still no mention of Goku)?

Gohan is compared to the other strongest being of that time, which is Gotenks (not Goku).

During the fight with Kid boo Vegeta blatantly admits that Goku is #1 and the only one capable of defeating Pure boo. We all know that obviously means the strongest Z fighter there is.

The "#1" doesn't mean that Goku's stronger than Gotenks or Gohan. Just that he's been always ahead of Vegeta, despite Vegeta's struggles to change that.

Whereas in the Cell arc, the manga directly states that Gohan was #1 and everyone was counting on him whereas against Pure boo everyone was counting on Goku since his power was the best.

In the Cell arc, Gohan achieved SSJ2 and was the strongest. In the Boo arc, Gotenks and Gohan were too far away to help.

Don't use the "inside boo" excuse since Boo had already established Goku couldn't beat him when he was far far smaller than a flea.

... What?

1. Vegetto defuses;
2. Goku & Vegeta revert Boo to his Evil form by breaking the link between him and his absorbees;
3. Goku tells that even now there's no way they could defeat him without fusing;
4. Boo appears and Goku finds out that they're now smaller than a flea, thus useless.

[Fox666]

Why must we follow one fan interpretation so that it makes everyone else happy. Everyone is twisting it up. If Goku, the franchises main character were to truly be surpassed, then it would have been stated.

That's a fallacy. That would be the same as me saying that if you don't know the answer for a question, the right answer is always A.

We know the Boo saga is confuse, but that doesn't prove anything in Goku's favour.

This quote says "Vegeta and the others", not "Goku and the others". "Others" is just a word, nothing more. "Vegeta" is what we should mainly be paying attention at. "Others" refers to everyone weaker than Vegeta such as Kaioshin, Kibito, and ssj2 Gohan.

If you don't know what the "others" are, you don't know.

During the fight with Kid boo Vegeta blatantly admits that Goku is #1 and the only one capable of defeating Pure boo. We all know that obviously means the strongest Z fighter there is. Whereas in the Cell arc, the manga directly states that Gohan was #1 and everyone was counting on him whereas against Pure boo everyone was counting on Goku since his power was the best.

Technically Vegeta said Goku was the only one who could fight Pure Boo. And since Gohan and the others were all dead, they are not take in account.

Of course using your own argument I could argue that Goku is stronger than Vegetto, since Goku is "number 1".

Don't use the "inside boo" excuse since Boo had already established Goku couldn't beat him when he was far far smaller than a flea.

No, it didn't. Evil Boo only mentions the problem of their size in chapter 507, while Goku said he and Vegeta are not a match for his strength in chapter 506.

[Hitiro]

To be honest Goku was a liar for most of the Buu arc. First he calls Vegeta his equal in strength when he was still hiding the SSJ3 form up his sleeve, making that statement a bare face lie to make Vegeta feel good about himself. Then he says he probably couldn't have beaten Fat Buu but he was clearly pasting him all over the place in SSJ3 and he later said to Vegeta that he could have beaten Fat Buu no problem at full power. Then he says he was going to give Vegeta a go at fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta says that he obviously wasn't because he wouldn't have a chance and then Goku lies yet again saying he could put up a fight against him which Vegeta knew not to be true. Obviously trying to spare Vegeta's feelings and pride. During this arc I would trust Goku as far as I could throw him so if he says he couldn't take Super Buu I think he would at least put up a fight much like when he was dealing with Kid Buu, for all we know this could just be another attempt at Goku trying to spare Vegeta's pride.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku wasn't lying randomly, he lied because he didn't want to hurt Vegeta's pride. This has nothing to do with it. He has no reason to lie here, he said to Vegeta that they both couldn't beat him. As for the second lie you mentioned, Goku didn't say that he probably couldn't beat Boo, but he said that he probably could beat him, but he wanted the new generation to take care of Boo for him.

[Hitiro]

Goku wasn't lying randomly, he lied because he didn't want to hurt Vegeta's pride.

I have already mentioned he lied to Vegeta because he didn't want to hurt his pride.

This has nothing to do with it. He has no reason to lie here, he said to Vegeta that they both couldn't beat him.

Of course he has a reason to lie here, they free'd Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo. Gohan could have dealt with Super Boo after they got out. Or they could have done a fusion to guarantee a win, instead of relying on SSJ3 which would have hurt Vegeta's pride more once he had seen it and possibly wouldn't have been enough to defeat Super Boo. Any of these options would have meant Vegeta's pride would still be intact. I'm not saying Goku could have defeated him but it wouldn't have been one sided either.

As for the second lie you mentioned, Goku didn't say that he probably couldn't beat Boo, but he said that he probably could beat him, but he wanted the new generation to take care of Boo for him.

Piccolo: Could you have defeated Boo if you fought with all you had at level 3? Why didn't you?
Goku: I dunno... Boo's mighty strong... I don't think I could've...

[Bussani]

To be honest Goku was a liar for most of the Buu arc. First he calls Vegeta his equal in strength when he was still hiding the SSJ3 form up his sleeve, making that statement a bare face lie to make Vegeta feel good about himself. Then he says he probably couldn't have beaten Fat Buu but he was clearly pasting him all over the place in SSJ3 and he later said to Vegeta that he could have beaten Fat Buu no problem at full power. Then he says he was going to give Vegeta a go at fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta says that he obviously wasn't because he wouldn't have a chance and then Goku lies yet again saying he could put up a fight against him which Vegeta knew not to be true. Obviously trying to spare Vegeta's feelings and pride. During this arc I would trust Goku as far as I could throw him so if he says he couldn't take Super Buu I think he would at least put up a fight much like when he was dealing with Kid Buu, for all we know this could just be another attempt at Goku trying to spare Vegeta's pride.

This has always at least seemed more plausible to me than the idea that Goku was saying they couldn't beat Buu because of their size. I'm not sure about it either, though. I guess it's possible, but we have to keep in mind that he made these comments after Vegeta had called him out on having Super Saiyan 3 up his sleeve and told Goku not to insult him further by patronizing him. It would be pretty dickish to keep doing the exact same thing after apologizing for it.

[Hitiro]

This has always at least seemed more plausible to me than the idea that Goku was saying they couldn't beat Buu because of their size. I'm not sure about it either, though. I guess it's possible, but we have to keep in mind that he made these comments after Vegeta had called him out on having Super Saiyan 3 up his sleeve and told Goku not to insult him further by patronizing him. It would be pretty dickish to keep doing the exact same thing after apologizing for it.

I agree with what you say but lets not forget that Vegeta doesn't know to what extent a SSJ3's power ouput is. Seeing the transformation would make him realise that he is completely outclassed. And Goku also lies when he is fighting Kid Buu, saying he was going to give Vegeta a turn and that Vegeta could have held his own. Vegeta quickly shoots down these comments saying that he is trying to spare his feelings and pride. That in itself is a pretty dickish thing for Goku to say, still trying to cover up the fact that Vegeta is pretty useless by this time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo: Could you have defeated Boo if you fought with all you had at level 3? Why didn't you?
Goku: I dunno... Boo's mighty strong... I don't think I could've...

Darn, my memory is very shitty sometimes!
But again, he wasn't necessarily lying, maybe he was estimating wrongly, since he didn't give a sure answer.

Of course he has a reason to lie here, they free'd Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo. Gohan could have dealt with Super Boo after they got out. Or they could have done a fusion to guarantee a win, instead of relying on SSJ3 which would have hurt Vegeta's pride more once he had seen it and possibly wouldn't have been enough to defeat Super Boo. Any of these options would have meant Vegeta's pride would still be intact. I'm not saying Goku could have defeated him but it wouldn't have been one sided either.

I see your point now. It could be possible, but think about it:
Goku said Vegeta that they were equals, but it was later revealed that he was hiding Super Saiyan 3.
Goku said that he couldn't beat Innocent Boo, but it was later revealed that he could do it.
Goku said Vegeta to try to beat Boo, but it was revealed that he was lying.
But then, Goku said that they didn't have a chance against Evil Boo. Was it revealed anything to make his statement untrue?

[Hitiro]

But then, Goku said that they didn't have a chance against Evil Boo. Was it revealed anything to make his statement untrue?

Was anything revealed that made this statement true? Like I said, it may not be true but then again Goku turns into a prominent liar during the Boo arc. I wouldn't be surprised if he put up at least a semi-decent fight against Super Boo, there is no evidence to back up whether the statement is true or untrue but from my personal view he's lied a several times already in this arc so the statement could possibly be untrue.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Was anything revealed that made this statement true?

The fact that nothing makes it untrue, makes it true. We have one statement saying that Goku & Vegeta together can't beat Evil Boo, and zero saying the opposite.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Piccolo: Could you have defeated Boo if you fought with all you had at level 3? Why didn't you?
Goku: I dunno... Boo's mighty strong... I don't think I could've...

Darn, my memory is very shitty sometimes!
But again, he wasn't necessarily lying, maybe he was estimating wrongly, since he didn't give a sure answer.

Right after this, Piccolo calls him out on this, asking him why he didn't try. Then Gokuu spills the beans by telling him that it'd be better for Earth if he let the kids defeat Boo, and later before fighting Pure Boo, Gokuu says that he could've defeated Fat Boo after all.

[Zephyr]

Ignoring the previous conversation held in the thread and dropping my own 2 cents on the initial quote:

The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

When I read that quote, it makes me think that it is implying Gotenks to have previously been equal with "Vegeta and the others". For Gotenks to be equal to Vegeta AND "the others", Vegeta and these "others" must be fairly equal in strength. Thus, "the others" are implied, to me at least, to be Goku and Gohan, the only ones at this point fairly equal to Vegeta.

Furthermore, if Gotenks had not been equal to "Vegeta and the others", he would logically had to have been weaker than "Vegeta and the others". So, if "the others" include anyone BUT Goku and Gohan, that opens another can of worms as to whether or not Piccolo and 18 were stronger than Gotenks in his initial appearance, which I suppose you could debate, but there's scarce proof for either side as far as I'm aware....

Also, the Saiyans are pretty much the only relevant characters to discuss in terms of power at this point in the story anyway, so it would be odd for the Daizenshuu to include long since irrelevant characters (strength wise) when talking about strength.


Apologies if this had already been argued or anything.

[Hitiro]

Was anything revealed that made this statement true?

The fact that nothing makes it untrue, makes it true. We have one statement saying that Goku & Vegeta together can't beat Evil Boo, and zero saying the opposite.

So the fact that nothing makes the Vegeta's statement about being able to destroy the Earth in the Saiyan arc makes that untrue too? Unless a feat is shown we can't say whether they were telling the truth or not. There has been a lot of heavy debate on whether Vegeta would be able to destroy the Earth so the statement that Goku and Vegeta could do nothing against Super Boo is also a point worth noting. We haven't seen them fight against Super Boo so we can't really determine what Goku said was a fact or just his way of sparing Vegeta's pride and feelings yet again. He did it in the Kid Boo fight, so why can't he have done it here?

Piccolo: Could you have defeated Boo if you fought with all you had at level 3? Why didn't you?
Goku: I dunno... Boo's mighty strong... I don't think I could've...

Right after this, Piccolo calls him out on this, asking him why he didn't try. Then Gokuu spills the beans by telling him that it'd be better for Earth if he let the kids defeat Boo, and later before fighting Pure Boo, Gokuu says that he could've defeated Fat Boo after all.

I suggest you re-read this passage, indeed, Goku does say it would be better if he let the kids defeat Boo for the future, because he obviously won't be around to help anymore. But he does not say that he could have defeated Fat Boo until much later in the story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So the fact that nothing makes the Vegeta's statement about being able to destroy the Earth in the Saiyan arc makes that untrue too? Unless a feat is shown we can't say whether they were telling the truth or not. There has been a lot of heavy debate on whether Vegeta would be able to destroy the Earth so the statement that Goku and Vegeta could do nothing against Super Boo is also a point worth noting. We haven't seen them fight against Super Boo so we can't really determine what Goku said was a fact or just his way of sparing Vegeta's pride and feelings yet again. He did it in the Kid Boo fight, so why can't he have done it here?

I see your point, but what you say is pure speculation. Yes it could be possible, but there is almost nothing to support this, which doesn't give me any reason to go by it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Piccolo: Could you have defeated Boo if you fought with all you had at level 3? Why didn't you?
Goku: I dunno... Boo's mighty strong... I don't think I could've...

Right after this, Piccolo calls him out on this, asking him why he didn't try. Then Gokuu spills the beans by telling him that it'd be better for Earth if he let the kids defeat Boo, and later before fighting Pure Boo, Gokuu says that he could've defeated Fat Boo after all.

I suggest you re-read this passage, indeed, Goku does say it would be better if he let the kids defeat Boo for the future, because he obviously won't be around to help anymore. But he does not say that he could have defeated Fat Boo until much later in the story.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Before he fights Pure Boo, he tells Vegeta that he could've defeated Fat Boo with Super Saiyan 3, but he wanted to let the kids do it.

[Rostir]

I always hated that Gotenks' actual strength was mostly nebulous due to almost every single scene with him being some gag. Gotenks being SSJ3 and looking super powerful is down played by all of the stupid joking and non-serious fighting.

[Hitiro]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Before he fights Pure Boo, he tells Vegeta that he could've defeated Fat Boo with Super Saiyan 3, but he wanted to let the kids do it.

That's the point I'm trying to make, he lies initially. Then derps everyone by saying he could in actual fact do it. We see him lie throughout this arc on many occasions so I wouldn't be surprised if he did it inside Super Boo also.

[Bussani]

I agree with what you say but lets not forget that Vegeta doesn't know to what extent a SSJ3's power ouput is. Seeing the transformation would make him realise that he is completely outclassed. And Goku also lies when he is fighting Kid Buu, saying he was going to give Vegeta a turn and that Vegeta could have held his own. Vegeta quickly shoots down these comments saying that he is trying to spare his feelings and pride. That in itself is a pretty dickish thing for Goku to say, still trying to cover up the fact that Vegeta is pretty useless by this time.

Good point, fair enough. I guess either interpretations seem technically plausible to me.