What makes a god, a god

[ricecake]

This whole discussion reminds me of an appropriate quote from Groundhog Day:

Phil: "I'm a god."
Rita: "You're God?"
Phil: "I'm a god. I'm not the God... I don't think."

@TonyTheTiger:
You said,

Lowercase "god"? Well there are the idiosyncracies of the language for you. Usually in that case it's a generic term that's qualified with something like "god of thunder."

Nevertheless, do you think there would have been an issue of they explained that he is a god, who happens to be the god of Earth, but they just call him "God" for short, since there is only one "god of Earth"?

[TripleRach]

Same for "Kame-sennin". Ideally, if "Kamehameha" gets its "Kame" part from its creator, then why take that way by using the translation "Turtle Hermit/Sage"? Then again, it's not as if it's vital.

Translations often require some kind of sacrifice, so ideally you have to want to find the path that causes the least damage. I find that the meaning of "Kamesennin" is important to the story, but the etymology of "Kamehameha" is just interesting trivia. You lose the connection between them if you translate one and not the other, but the alternative is viewers not knowing what an important term means, or trying to come up with some crazy localization of Kamehameha that includes "turtle" and is still easy to pronounce and chant.

All translation roads leads to pain and suffering.

Yes, to all of those things. But pretty much all of that is in-universe which repurposes stuff all the time. I'm not saying that it's impossible to repurpose "God." What I'm saying is that the audience's interpretation of the specific repurposing of "kami" may differ from the English speaker's interpretation of the repurposing of "God." Lowercase "god"? Well there are the idiosyncracies of the language for you. Usually in that case it's a generic term that's qualified with something like "god of thunder."

I'm not a Shintoism expert, but I do know that when someone is referred to as a "kami" or "Kami-sama" in Japanese, it's a big deal. As big as standalone capitalized "God" in English? That's hard to say. Especially since Japanese Christians also exist (even if they're a minority), and they use the same term for the Christian God. But I am confident that the average Japanese viewer probably thought something closer to "Whoa, God!?" than "Oh, a guardian spirit." It's meant to invoke something powerful, and regardless of how you viewed the concept of kami/gods going in, Toriyama quickly redefines things in his own mythology anyway.

As I just said above, 100% flawless translations are pretty much impossible, but in this case I can't imagine anything working better than "God." Leaving it as "Kami" especially would invoke nothing to most English speakers.

[LiamKav]

Well, screw cultural sensitivities. On the whole, people in general don't and shouldn't care about that kind of stuff.

When and if cultural sensitivities are a key part of your identity as an individual and human being, you lose a part of yourself if you stop caring about them. Not everyone wants that.

Oh, they should. Not to the extent of doing something crazy like teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools, but some things you should care about. There was a big stink in amoungst some US fans when a Transformer's name was changed from "Spastic" to something else. They didn't care that it was offensive in the UK, and they thought we should just accept it. Pointing out that no parent in the UK would buy a toy with that name, and that it'd be easier for Hasbro to call the toy the same thing everywhere means if they were going to change it in one place, they might as well change it everywhere has no effect. These people wanted their Spastic, goddamnit.

Alternatively, Mr Popo. I completely support what FUNimation was doing when they gave him a completely different style of voice than he had in Japan. It was them trying to limit the amount of damage that could be done if someone unaware of DragonBall were to look at him. In an ideal world, Toriyama would have drawn him differently. He didn't, the show is over, we're stuck with him. If they were to redo the series today, I wouldn't be surprised if he was quite heavily redesigned. Which I think he should be, to be honest.

I think it's going plenty of places :/. It's not like anyone's in a bitter argument, or anything. I love hearing and reading all this, and I fully plan on mining it for a podcast episode in the future .

I know, but it just feels as if we're going in circles. I think the point about Kuririn praying to God has been reiterated about five times.

If it helps, I started out firmly on the path of Kami, and now I... don't know. I'm watching original DragonBall for the first time though, and I'm just up to the point where your namesake has appeared, so we'll see how it plays out. Mike is right in that one of the things affecting a lot of people is that they came into the series after Kami had already been shown to be an alien, and if they were watching the dub then the whole "guardian=God" thing is pretty much hidden, so it does require a certain amount of rethinking.

See, this is easier in other fandoms. Primus is, to Transformers, God-With-A-Capital-G, but he has another name which stops the dissonance from just calling him that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Alternatively, Mr Popo. I completely support what FUNimation was doing when they gave him a completely different style of voice than he had in Japan. It was them trying to limit the amount of damage that could be done if someone unaware of DragonBall were to look at him. In an ideal world, Toriyama would have drawn him differently. He didn't, the show is over, we're stuck with him. If they were to redo the series today, I wouldn't be surprised if he was quite heavily redesigned. Which I think he should be, to be honest.

They changed his voice, but they didn't change his appearance, so no matter what, there'd still be a big stink. Which is why we had Blue Mr. Popo. I'm not even sure if that's what FUNimation was going for anyway, since a lot of the voices weren't accurate (subjective in and of itself, I suppose) to the Japanese version.

And that didn't stop FUNimation from giving Recoom a retard voice, solely based on his appearance. Although I understand that's not entirely the same situation.

I think it's going plenty of places :/. It's not like anyone's in a bitter argument, or anything. I love hearing and reading all this, and I fully plan on mining it for a podcast episode in the future .

I know, but it just feels as if we're going in circles. I think the point about Kuririn praying to God has been reiterated about five times.

If it helps, I started out firmly on the path of Kami, and now I... don't know. I'm watching original DragonBall for the first time though, and I'm just up to the point where your namesake has appeared, so we'll see how it plays out. Mike is right in that one of the things affecting a lot of people is that they came into the series after Kami had already been shown to be an alien, and if they were watching the dub then the whole "guardian=God" thing is pretty much hidden, so it does require a certain amount of rethinking.

See, this is easier in other fandoms. Primus is, to Transformers, God-With-A-Capital-G, but he has another name which stops the dissonance from just calling him that.

Yeah, it's a funny subject.

[Rocketman]

So what about other foreign words we use to identify gods? Like, say, Helios. In Greek, that's still the common word for the Sun.

[Bussani]

I just want to say, I can definitely see where people like TonyTheTiger are coming from. His question is whether English speaking audiences who hear "God" would react the same way as Japanese speakers who hear "Kami-sama". Rachel essentially summed up my answer for me!

I'm not a Shintoism expert, but I do know that when someone is referred to as a "kami" or "Kami-sama" in Japanese, it's a big deal. As big as standalone capitalized "God" in English? That's hard to say. Especially since Japanese Christians also exist (even if they're a minority), and they use the same term for the Christian God. But I am confident that the average Japanese viewer probably thought something closer to "Whoa, God!?" than "Oh, a guardian spirit." It's meant to invoke something powerful, and regardless of how you viewed the concept of kami/gods going in, Toriyama quickly redefines things in his own mythology anyway.

It might not be a perfect 1:1 reaction, but it's close. Goku didn't go to train with a spirit, or a bunch of spirits, or a Shinto idea--he went to train with the Kami-sama. Not "a god", but just "God". I would be interested to know if anyone could suggest another translation that would work better, though.

As for the whole capital-G thing, Rachel also touched on this in another thread. The g in "god" isn't capitalized if it's descriptive, like "a god", or "Earth's god", but when it's used as a title or a proper noun, it has to get capitalized. For instance, you say, "Jim Barn is a doctor," but also "Doctor Barn" when it's a title, and just the capitalized title by itself when you say something like, "Can you help me, Doctor?".

English rules are funny.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So what about other foreign words we use to identify gods? Like, say, Helios. In Greek, that's still the common word for the Sun.

Because sun in the English-speaking world has a different meaning. For all intents and purposes, "God", at least before we actually meet the guy, in Dragon Ball has roughly the same meaning as "God" does in the real-life Western world.

[Rocketman]

Because sun in the English-speaking world has a different meaning.

No it doesn't. The Sun is Helios, and Helios is the Sun. They are the exact same thing. The Solar System is ηλιακό σύστημα, "(h)eliako systema", "Helios' system".

[Piccolo Daimao]

Because sun in the English-speaking world has a different meaning.

No it doesn't. The Sun is Helios, and Helios is the Sun. They are the exact same thing. The Solar System is ηλιακό σύστημα, "(h)eliako systema", "Helios' system".

Well...*shrugs*

[TripleRach]

No it doesn't. The Sun is Helios, and Helios is the Sun. They are the exact same thing. The Solar System is ηλιακό σύστημα, "(h)eliako systema", "Helios' system".

If we've misappropriated a Greek word and turned something ordinary into a name rather than translating it, then that sucks. If I were an active Greek mythology nerd, I would probably complain about it, but as it is I don't have a major interest in the issue.

I don't really understand how this is relevant though, since it's not like any of us decided Helios was a "name."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Helios IS a name. The god Helios is supposed to be the sun (ήλιος) we know, but he is still a person.

[TripleRach]

Helios IS a name. The god Helios is supposed to be the sun (ήλιος) we know, but he is still a person.

Well yes, so I guess that was poor wording on my part. I think Rocketman's point was that they probably shouldn't have separate names in English if they have the same name in Greek.

[Rocketman]

I have two points.

The first is what I usually say in threads like this, that the mutation of words and terms as they cross cultural boundaries is a simple fact that I don't see much trouble with.

The second is more 'feeling-y'. I think it's good to leave some things untranslated because it adds to the otherworldly nature. Yes, "Kami" literally means "God/god/spirit/etc", but "Ares" literally means "War/battle/fight/etc".

You could translate Ares as War every time, but doesn't that lose something? A bit of the 'foreign' feel, maybe, or the association with other parts of the mythology. "War" could be anything from a generic personification to the Biblical Horseman, but "Ares" instantly ties into Gorgons and Olympus and all that. Same with "God" vs "Kami".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"Ares" literally means "War/battle/fight/etc".

The name Ares (Άρης) name doesn't mean war (πόλεμος), though I think the name Ares comes from a Greek word that has the meaning of something related to war. But I got your point, with which I agree.

[Piccolo Daimao]

However, couldn't you argue that "Kami" in Dragon Ball doesn't have as much historical significance as "Ares" and "Helios"? And should we really use the fact that a word sounds otherworldly as criteria for leaving a name untranslated? I mean, isn't it enough that, well, the entire series is already Japanese, and the characters themselves and their designs, the overarching themes of the story, etc.?

But this whole naming and translating thing is inconsistent anyway, even with official translators that really know both the English and Japanese language and culture. With some things, it's just hard to get a 1:1 message across. As others have mentioned, translation is an art form, so I guess you've just gotta go with what you feel is right. Both arguments on either side are equally valid.

[TripleRach]

I don't mean to drag this out if everyone's already said what they had to say, but I haven't had a chance to reply until now.

However, couldn't you argue that "Kami" in Dragon Ball doesn't have as much historical significance as "Ares" and "Helios"? And should we really use the fact that a word sounds otherworldly as criteria for leaving a name untranslated? I mean, isn't it enough that, well, the entire series is already Japanese, and the character themselves and their designs, the overarching themes of the story, etc.?

But this whole naming and translating thing is inconsistent anyway, even with official translators that really know both the English and Japanese language and culture. With some things, it's just hard to get a 1:1 message across. As others have mentioned, translation is an art form, so I guess you've just gotta go with what you feel is right. Both arguments on either side are equally valid.

As much as I prefer consistency and avoiding hypocrisy, what works for one situation doesn't necessarily work for every situation. Even in Greek mythology, while most major gods tend to keep their Greek name, other minor entities are sometimes translated to corresponding English words. The most famous example is probably Pain and Panic in Disney's Hercules, but then they're not directly based on any mythological characters. (Maybe Phobos and Deimos?)

I don't have a problem with leaving a few quirks untranslated, but there should be a good reason for it beyond "it adds foreign flavor." Especially when adding that flavor comes at the expense of understanding. Translators of Greek myths haven't completely lost the association between Ares and war, but the official English translations for Dragon Ball haven't done much to equate "Kami" with "God," or even to get across that he's not just some guy named "Kami" along the same lines as "Gokuu" or "Kuririn." Most of us here might understand that, but personally, I don't want to perpetuate any confusion just for the sake of "Japanese words sound cool."

[Rocketman]

Even in Greek mythology, while most major gods tend to keep their Greek name, other minor entities are sometimes translated to corresponding English words. The most famous example is probably Pain and Panic in Disney's Hercules, but then they're not directly based on any mythological characters. (Maybe Phobos and Deimos?)

I really can't think of any examples of that. If anything, the only reason it seems that way is because a lot of the minor gods gave their names to the concepts, like the Roman Goddess of Victory, Victoria. Or that "panic" itself comes from the god Pan. Phobos, "fear", survives as "phobia", etc.

Pain and Panic are so far removed from any Greek deity or spirit, there's no reason to call them anything but original characters. You may as well say that Kami is Mars because both are gods of the Earth.

I don't have a problem with leaving a few quirks untranslated, but there should be a good reason for it beyond "it adds foreign flavor." Especially when adding that flavor comes at the expense of understanding. Translators of Greek myths haven't completely lost the association between Ares and war, but the official English translations for Dragon Ball haven't done much to equate "Kami" with "God," or even to get across that he's not just some guy named "Kami" along the same lines as "Gokuu" or "Kuririn." Most of us here might understand that, but personally, I don't want to perpetuate any confusion just for the sake of "Japanese words sound cool."

Personally, I'd love to see some equating of Kami with his deity-role. Having the higher-ranking gods call him God of Earth or such (I believe Viz does do that a few times). Same thing if Supreme or Elder Kai ever addresses Dende.

I realize that still feels like censorship, but even aside from connotations and whatnot, I don't like translating Kami when the rest of the gods aren't. DB's pantheon goes like, Daikaioshin - Kaioshin - Daikaioh - Kaioh - God.

It's like saying the Twelve Olympians are Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Apollo, Artemis, Hephaestus, Dionysus, Aphrodite, Hermes, Athena, and War.

So, I'm just as fine with "Kami, God of Earth" as I am with "Helios, God of the Sun" or "Thor, God of Thunder" (yes, Thor literally means Thunder).

[Piccolo Daimao]

Personally, I'd love to see some equating of Kami with his deity-role. Having the higher-ranking gods call him God of Earth or such (I believe Viz does do that a few times). Same thing if Supreme or Elder Kai ever addresses Dende.

I realize that still feels like censorship, but even aside from connotations and whatnot, I don't like translating Kami when the rest of the gods aren't. DB's pantheon goes like, Daikaioshin - Kaioshin - Daikaioh - Kaioh - God.

It's like saying the Twelve Olympians are Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Apollo, Artemis, Hephaestus, Dionysus, Aphrodite, Hermes, Athena, and War.

So, I'm just as fine with "Kami, God of Earth" as I am with "Helios, God of the Sun" or "Thor, God of Thunder" (yes, Thor literally means Thunder).

But doesn't that mislead people to think that "Kami" is his real name? Even in the FUNimation dub, they mention that Kami has literally forgotten his own name and then the whole "nameless Namekian" thing in the Cell arc, but dub fans still say that "Kami is his name" rather than his title.

Maybe they should just refer to it in a footnote (I guess they do do that in Viz, who handled it pretty well; although I don't recall them using "Kaioushin" that much alongside "Lord of Lords"...lord of lords of what, then? Doesn't that kind of miss out an important part?), or instead say, "The Kami, God of Earth".

Isn't it a bit redundant to basically be saying, "God, God of Earth", but the foreign word has almost taken on a different meaning? I mean, like I said, perhaps the fact that the character "Kami" in Dragon Ball doesn't have as much historical significance as actual gods like "Zeus" and "Poseidon" is something worth taking into account. And yeah, I know about the real-life Greek god examples of "Helios" and "Thor", but even I'm beginning to have my gripes with that. If you mention "God of Thunder" to someone, wouldn't they know who you're talking about without even having to mention "Thor"?

[Rocketman]

And yeah, I know about the real-life Greek god examples of "Helios" and "Thor", but even I'm beginning to have my gripes with that. If you mention "God of Thunder" to someone, wouldn't they know who you're talking about without even having to mention "Thor"?

Yes, but I would say it's because of the Avengers movies (and to a lesser extent, being a Marvel superhero) putting him and his title in the public eye.

How many people do you think would match up "God of the Sun" to "Helios"? People who played the God of War games, maybe. Or what about "Goddess of the Moon"?

[Piccolo Daimao]

And yeah, I know about the real-life Greek god examples of "Helios" and "Thor", but even I'm beginning to have my gripes with that. If you mention "God of Thunder" to someone, wouldn't they know who you're talking about without even having to mention "Thor"?

Yes, but I would say it's because of the Avengers movies (and to a lesser extent, being a Marvel superhero) putting him and his title in the public eye.

How many people do you think would match up "God of the Sun" to "Helios"? People who played the God of War games, maybe. Or what about "Goddess of the Moon"?

Nah, before The Avengers and his Marvel creation, people knew about Thor, Zeus, etc. At least, a few of the popular ones, I'd wager.

But no, I don't think many people would match up "God of the Sun" to "Helios", but I think many people would match up "God of Thunder" to "Thor".