Dragonball Vs. Non Dragonball

[Hellspawn28]

Maybe some comic book characters have shown the power to go faster then light while DB characters have not. It also depends on which Thor we are using since Rune King Thor could beat any version of Goku given that he is a Skyfather level being. I haven't been update to with comics in over a year or two, so from what I can remember that Thor could beat Goku by using absorbing Goku's ki with the Mjolnir.

To even support thor's slower combat speed to travel speed their actually a thread dedicated to determine who is faster in combat between him, wolverine and spiderman.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t549032.html

You know that thread is created by Caver9 who is known to be a major troll on those forums right ? I won't take him too seriously since I remember the shit storms that he caused before in the past.

[shonenhikada]

Maybe some comic book characters have shown the power to go faster then light while DB characters have not. It also depends on which Thor we are using since Rune King Thor could beat any version of Goku given that he is a Skyfather level being. I haven't been update to with comics in over a year or two, so from what I can remember that Thor could beat Goku by using absorbing Goku's ki with the Mjolnir.

The thing is people just assume DBZ characters are not and come up with BS excuses that they don't have FTL combat speed applying real world science while they believe anything that comes out a comic book. Even going so far as thinking OBD calculation of mach 1000+ is legit when it was debunked a long time ago.

For example someone makes an argument

Piccolo's destroyed the moon in 2 seconds early dragon ball, while light takes 1.36 to reach the moon. This makes his beams relativistic being 0.68 the speed of light. A more powerful piccolo can't see Freeza's death beams comments that it appears as a flash of light; hinting that the beams may be light speed. Goku is seen dodging these beams as a super saiyan casually. Yet people will come up and say the beams aren't lightspeed its not even close to light, goku is massively hypersonic in combat.

[shonenhikada]

Maybe some comic book characters have shown the power to go faster then light while DB characters have not. It also depends on which Thor we are using since Rune King Thor could beat any version of Goku given that he is a Skyfather level being. I haven't been update to with comics in over a year or two, so from what I can remember that Thor could beat Goku by using absorbing Goku's ki with the Mjolnir.

To even support thor's slower combat speed to travel speed their actually a thread dedicated to determine who is faster in combat between him, wolverine and spiderman.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t549032.html

You know that thread is created by Caver9 who is known to be a major troll on those forums right ? I won't take him too seriously since I remember the shit storms that he caused before in the past.

The thing about this thread is that people are actually agreeing that thor's combat speed is lower than spiderman, and wolverine. What so is everyone who took part in the thread trolls ?

[Kiyza]

If your talking about the beta ray bill fight that only happen once.

Which Beta Ray Bill fight? He's squared off against the guy multiple times. While we're on the subject, though, Beta Ray Bill himself, who's in the same ballpark as Thor, is routinely portrayed as FTL. For instance, there's a very nice fight he has with the Silver Surfer during Godhunter while they're both pretty clearly moving at FTL speeds.

IN Thor entire career showing as a character he's been more times thanot been portrayed to fight at way lower speeds than FTL. While its true thor has ,massively FTL travelling speed his combat speed showing from a lot of his fights, as well as his reflexes aren't nearly as epic.

I fail to see why he shouldn't be able to react at the same speeds he's physically capable of responding to during flight. I've seen this whole "traveling speed Vs combat speed" thing a thousand times and I'm of the honest opinion that it's an invalid argument. I tend to see it used a lot in arguments with Dragon Ball in particular to try and play up that side's speed when characters who can move at FTL speeds when flying through space should logically be able to do the same in terms of reaction speed because they have to react to where they're going.

Also lifting strength doesn't transfer into striking strength, the flash and Karate kid can't lift more than 2 tons ye t both these guys have shown to damage superman level beings on more than one occasion. Flash for example can K.O. a white martian with superman leveldurability, and karate kid was shown to actually damage and cut off limbs from a guy with superman level durability during countdown to infinite crisis.

And when was the last time you saw it work in reverse? As in, characters who can't lift that much can't strike very hard? And furthermore, he's uppercutted Beta Ray Bill into orbit, which pretty much confirms his striking strength is somewhere in the "absurd" ballpark.

To even support thor's slower combat speed to travel speed their actually a thread dedicated to determine who is faster in combat between him, wolverine and spiderman.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t549032.html

Like Hellspawn mentioned, the entire match seems to be a load of crock involving trolls.

Also how is it with gotenks feat everyone was going FTL is impossible, yet people are A OK when its a comic character ?

Mainly because Gotenks' feat of speed wasn't quantifiable due to the fact that we have no accurate frame of time to estimate how fast he was going. Speed is distance divided by time. All we really know for sure is that it took less than half an hour. There's also nothing saying that Goku is as fast as Gotenks anyway.

Meanwhile, in western comics, time frames and such are more like to be said in, say, narration boxes. There's also the matter that Thor has traveled vast distances in places like space, where you pretty much have to be FTL to get anywhere and make decent time in the first place.

If, for the sake of argument, we both assume that they're moving at the same speed, I'd still place my money on Thor, especially considering Mjolnir is pretty much an ace in the hole against the energy attacks we see in Dragon Ball.

The thing about this thread is that people are actually agreeing that thor's combat speed is lower than spiderman, and wolverine. What so is everyone who took part in the thread trolls ?

No, simply very, very misinformed. I once believed it was physically possible for Goku to defeat Galactus, but that was because the poster I was talking to didn't really give me a scope of what the character was capable of. Even smart people can make mistakes when misinformation or downplaying is clouding their judgement.

[Bussani]

Also how is it with gotenks feat everyone was going FTL is impossible, yet people are A OK when its a comic character ?

The thing is people just assume DBZ characters are not and come up with BS excuses that they don't have FTL combat speed applying real world science while they believe anything that comes out a comic book.

There's absolutely no reason to believe Gotenks is faster-than-light. I'm not going to say he couldn't be--because it's fiction, and fiction can do anything--but there's nothing that makes me think he has to be. Many comic examples either do make me think they must be or outright state that they are, often in little narration boxes.

In short, silver age Superboy travelling trillions of miles in seconds is obviously faster-than-light; Gotenks circling the globe an unknown number of times in an unknown amount of time isn't conclusive of anything.

Piccolo's destroyed the moon in 2 seconds early dragon ball

You can't tell it was two seconds from a comic. And even if it was, if you're going to suggest that they were faster-than-light by the end of the Freeza arc, then why was everyone impressed with Goku teleporting to Kame-sennin's place? Even at half the speed of light they'd be able to get there in less than a second, regardless of where on Earth they were (and if I remember right, they said they were around 10,000 kilometers from Kame House, which is only about a quarter of the world's circumference anyway). The story seems to make it pretty clear to me that they're not that fast, which means much more to me than some math based on how long it takes to shoot the moon. Honestly, if I wanted a more plausible explanation for that, I'd probably go with Rocketman's theory about Dragon Ball's moon being closer to Earth than the real moon.

Or, you know, that Toriyama didn't care how long it takes for light to get to the moon, but people don't usually like answers like that.

A more powerful piccolo can't see Freeza's death beams comments that it appears as a flash of light; hinting that the beams may be light speed. Goku is seen dodging these beams as a super saiyan casually.

If Piccolo couldn't see the beams because they're moving at light speed, how could Goku or Vegeta see them? If something's coming at you at light speed, by the time you see it, it's hit you.

[shonenhikada]

Also how is it with gotenks feat everyone was going FTL is impossible, yet people are A OK when its a comic character ?

The thing is people just assume DBZ characters are not and come up with BS excuses that they don't have FTL combat speed applying real world science while they believe anything that comes out a comic book.

There's absolutely no reason to believe Gotenks is faster-than-light. I'm not going to say he couldn't be--because it's fiction, and fiction can do anything--but there's nothing that makes me think he has to be. Many comic examples either do make me think they must be or outright state that they are, often in little narration boxes.

In short, silver age Superboy travelling trillions of miles in seconds is obviously faster-than-light; Gotenks circling the globe an unknown number of times in an unknown amount of time isn't conclusive of anything.

Piccolo's destroyed the moon in 2 seconds early dragon ball

You can't tell it was two seconds from a comic. And even if it was, if you're going to suggest that they were faster-than-light by the end of the Freeza arc, then why was everyone impressed with Goku teleporting to Kame-sennin's place? Even at half the speed of light they'd be able to get there in less than a second, regardless of where on Earth they were (and if I remember right, they said they were around 10,000 kilometers from Kame House, which is only about a quarter of the world's circumference anyway). The story seems to make it pretty clear to me that they're not that fast, which means much more to me than some math based on how long it takes to shoot the moon. Honestly, if I wanted a more plausible explanation for that, I'd probably go with Rocketman's theory about Dragon Ball's moon being closer to Earth than the real moon.

Or, you know, that Toriyama didn't care how long it takes for light to get to the moon, but people don't usually like answers like that.

A more powerful piccolo can't see Freeza's death beams comments that it appears as a flash of light; hinting that the beams may be light speed. Goku is seen dodging these beams as a super saiyan casually.

If Piccolo couldn't see the beams because they're moving at light speed, how could Goku or Vegeta see them? If something's coming at you at light speed, by the time you see it, it's hit you.

To counter u points:

1. Except maybe the fact gotenks SSJ aura and stream is in fact made out of photons as evident by the fact that Yakon eats light energy. Gotenks is able to zip around before the stream of visible light is able to dissipate into the surrounding air which takes 1 x 10^-9 sec. Also gotenks couldn't have taken so long as 29 mins since saiyans were stated to not be able to survive in space for long periods (this was Freeza plan after all), and would have suffocated in space.

2. That's a very good question, but it could be that they were more impressed he got a new technique that allows him to do that without them actually seeing him move rather than the actual distance. I know they stated this to be a large distance and suggest that this to be a big deal, but you have to be aware db is full of inconsistencies.

E.g. Teen Goku and Tien movements, and even Krillin and Tenshihan movements were not discern able to humans in early dragon ball, but if we go to goten and trunks fight people are seen seeing them fight.

Goku struggling to lift 10 ton weights on each hand, yet capable of htting Freeza through several islands.

Hercule surviving being hit into a mountain.

Also you got to remember in DB as a whole travel speed does not equal combat speed. Remember how Roshi was able to catch bullets fired from machine gun casually yet only ran a 100 m in 10.5 sec which is slower than Usien Bolt. So one can just argue their travel speed as well isn't as fast as their combat speed, which is the reverse in comics where combat speed is often slower than travel speed.

3. The same way comic characters are able to fight with each other at FTL speed despite needing to see the light that bounce off said opponent to discern said person location. Its all a work of fiction and akira can do whatever he wants. People don't question when a character in a comic are dodging beams that are FTL but when DBZ characters do it no let's pull out the old science book and show why that can't happen.
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Also for those who still believe thor's travel speed is equal to his combat speed here's another completely different thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/thor/29-2268/d ... 19/?page=2

People even comment thor is not FTL combat and reflexes. Its a simple concept if travel speed = combat speed was legit Usain bolt would be the best fighter in the world.

Another piece of evidence supporting combat does not equal travel speed was with the silver surfer. A question was asked to
to Tom Brevoort. Tom Brevoort is Executive Editor and Vice President of Publishing in Marvel. So anything that is published has to go through him.

Question was asked ?

From what you know, does Silver Surfer have actual combat superspeed in the same way Quicksilver, as a Marvel example, has with, say, hundreds of blows within a second or similar -- or just incredible travel speed and mobility on his board? Thanks.

Tom Brevoort response:
I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the Surfer has what you refer to as combat super-speed.

If you want to find out about thor just ask him here
http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort

[Rocketman]

Also how is it with Gotenks' feat, everyone was going, "FTL is impossible," yet people are A OK when it's a comic character?

I'm not OK with it. I don't read comics that say such things, and if a comic I am reading starts up with that bullshit, I stop reading and don't purchase any more.

[Kiyza]

1. Except maybe the fact gotenks SSJ aura and stream is in fact made out of photons as evident by the fact that Yakon is eats light energy. Gotenks is able to zip around before the stream of visible light is able to dissipate into the surrounding air which takes 1 x 10^-9 sec. Also gotenks couldn't have taken so long as 29 mins since saiyans were stated to not be able to survive in space for long periods (this was Freeza plan after all), and would have suffocated in space.

For one, the auras are shown in the sky all the time, even when they're clearly not flying at speeds anywhere near light speed. It's kind of like how the Powerpuff Girls leave behind their little rainbow trails. (and don't say that's an invalid comparison because it's from an American kids' show instead of Dragon Ball) I don't see how you can outright state that ki auras have photons when we're never actually told they contain photons. It's an ethereal form of energy and doesn't have to abide by our laws of physics. It could obviously just be that it contains photons as opposed to being made up entirely of it. Additionally, It's possible Gotenks could have been in the upper atmosphere, considering Dragon Ball characters are apparently capable of breathing 9,000 kilometers above sea level. (which is where Karin Tower is)

2. That's a very good question, but it could be that they were more impressed he got a new technique that allows him to do that without them actually seeing him move rather than the actual distance. I know they stated this to be a large distance and suggest that this to be a big deal, but you have to be aware db is full of inconsistencies.

But considering characters much stronger/faster than Kame-Sennin likely couldn't see him at that point either, (if you judge by Kuririn being able to see Freeza's blasts and Goku being above him) wouldn't that be kind of moot?

E.g. Teen Goku and Tenshinhan movements, and even Krillin and Tenshihan movements were not discern able to humans in early dragon ball, but if we go to goten and trunks fight people are seen seeing them fight.

To be fair though, Goten and Trunks were holding back during the entire match, they're clearly show-offs anyway, and we don't know how much of the fight people actually saw. It could just be the relatively still moments that they were witnessing.

Goku struggling to lift 10 ton weights on each hand, yet capable of htting Freeza through several islands.

I thought you claimed that was exempt because lifting strength isn't striking strength. Are you going back on that statement now? Or is it just for Thor that it doesn't apply?

(the H-word) surviving being hit into a mountain.

All in the name of comedy, of course, which is kind of the point of the character. (And it was pretty funny...)

Also you got to remember in DB as a whole travel speed does not equal combat speed. Remember how Roshi was able to catch bullets fired from machine gun casually yet only ran a 100 m in 10.5 sec which is slower than Usien Bolt. So one can just argue their travel speed as well isn't as fast as their combat speed, which is the reverse in comics where combat speed is often slower than travel speed.

I bring up once again, if you're moving through space at speeds well in excess of light, shouldn't you be able to, say, dodge meteors? If you're not FTL in the reflexes department, it becomes that much more difficult to navigate, so they should logically be able to move at the same speeds.

3. The same way comic characters are able to fight with each other at FTL speed despite needing to see the light that bounce off said opponent to discern said person location. Its all a work of fiction and akira can do whatever he wants. People don't question when a character in a comic are dodging beams that are FTL but when DBZ characters do it no let's pull out the old science book and show why that can't happen.

To be fair, though, a lot of those characters have senses far in excess of normal human beings in the first place. For instance, the Silver Surfer is another character who routinely travels at FTL speeds. He was introduced traveling at FTL speeds. He also has extremely heightened sensory awareness that defies the laws of physics. I'm not saying that this is true of all characters, but a lot of the time, there is some justification for it, and Dragon Ball has never shown that it doesn't abide by these laws.

Also for those who still believe thor's travel speed is equal to his combat speed here's another completely different thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/thor/29-2268/d ... 19/?page=2

Multiple people who believe something that's incorrect doesn't make it right, does it? I mean, how many people believed the world was flat 500 years ago?

People even comment thor is not FTL combat and reflexes. Its a simple concept if travel speed = combat speed was legit Usain bolt would be the best fighter in the world.

When you're dealing with normal humans, our reaction speed is far greater than our traveling speed anyway -- so we can react to things while we're traveling. This analogy should be null and void.

Another piece of evidence supporting combat does not equal travel speed was with the silver surfer. A question was asked to
to Tom Brevoort. Tom Brevoort is Executive Editor and Vice President of Publishing in Marvel. So anything that is published has to go through him.

Question was asked ?

From what you know, does Silver Surfer have actual combat superspeed in the same way Quicksilver, as a Marvel example, has with, say, hundreds of blows within a second or similar -- or just incredible travel speed and mobility on his board? Thanks.

Tom Brevoort response:
I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the Surfer has what you refer to as combat super-speed.

Hey, guess what? Tom Brevoort just because Tom hasn't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. He also doesn't actually say that the Silver Surfer can't react at that speed. And guess what? He can.



Honestly, though, I can't blame him. I doubt anyone has read every comic by Marvel, let alone knows scenes like this from memory.

And if you don't think that nano-second reaction times are impressive, I should inform you that light moves about a foot in a nanosecond. Unfortunately, this isn't quite as impressive as the time he backhanded the Hulk in the span of a nanosecond, but I can't locate a scan at the moment and I don't believe I have the issue myself.


Let me put this in a nutshell for you:

• How do you know that ki is entirely photons? Last time I checked, photons don't explode violently on impact.
• If lifting strength doesn't correlate to combat strength, then why is Goku not being able to lift 10 tons a problem.
• If lifting strength does correlate to combat strength, then shouldn't that apply to Thor, or do you have double standards?
• Even if Gotenks is FTL, how can we be sure Goku is when Gotenks is stronger?
• And while we're at it, since "travel speed" doesn't prove "combat speed", then how do we know Gotenks is FTL in combat? This also works both ways.

[sonikku956]

Oh joy another light-speed argument.

[shonenhikada]

For one, the auras are shown in the sky all the time, even when they're clearly not flying at speeds anywhere near light speed. It's kind of like how the Powerpuff Girls leave behind their little rainbow trails. (and don't say that's an invalid comparison because it's from an American kids' show instead of Dragon Ball) I don't see how you can outright state that ki auras have photons when we're never actually told they contain photons. It's an ethereal form of energy and doesn't have to abide by our laws of physics. It could obviously just be that it contains photons as opposed to being made up entirely of it. Additionally, It's possible Gotenks could have been in the upper atmosphere, considering Dragon Ball characters are apparently capable of breathing 9,000 kilometers above sea level. (which is where Karin Tower is)

1.Except their auras are often shown to fade very quickly as they move away, and yes it is invalid seeing as your comparing a japanese manga from a different universe from that of an american cartoon that operates in a totally different realm of fiction. I'm stating the SSJ aura has photon, It was outright stated in the manga that the SSJ aura was made out of light energy which was why it was stated to be a treat for Yakon who was said to absorb light energy.

2. Also if you want to state it doesn't have to abide by our laws of physics. We can apply the same principle to comics and state that the planet,galaxies, solar systems and the metric systems they use in their plain of media or even their quantified value of the speed of light could be different from that of our earth.

3. Except its pretty clear from scaling and looking the scan in the manga (even my own personal work) that gotenks was in the mesophere region of the earth, where ozone is created, and which people cannot breath so gotenks would have had to have made the trip around the world quickly or he would have died.

But considering characters much stronger/faster than Kame-Sennin likely couldn't see him at that point either, (if you judge by Kuririn being able to see Freeza's blasts and Goku being above him) wouldn't that be kind of moot?

Kurrin couldn't see freizers death beam, only goku and to some degree vegeta. I don't know where your going with this ?

To be fair though, Goten and Trunks were holding back during the entire match, they're clearly show-offs anyway, and we don't know how much of the fight people actually saw. It could just be the relatively still moments that they were witnessing.

Except they were shown to be going out in the manga to win the tournament, if they were fighting at lower speeds than capable OF IN THEIR BASE one of them would just have to gradual increase their speed to win, and blitz the other.

I thought you claimed that was exempt because lifting strength isn't striking strength. Are you going back on that statement now? Or is it just for Thor that it doesn't apply?

No I am not going back. I should probably use another example,how heavy do you think that small mountain roshi wanted goku to moved weighed, compare this then to the lifting weights and see if that makes sense.

I bring up once again, if you're moving through space at speeds well in excess of light, shouldn't you be able to, say, dodge meteors? If you're not FTL in the reflexes department, it becomes that much more difficult to navigate, so they should logically be able to move at the same speeds.

I understand your point but cannon wise said character do not show these types of speeds in actual combat. Fiction and real world mechanics do not often go hand to hand.

Code: Select all

To be fair, though, a lot of those characters have senses far in excess of normal human beings in the first place. For instance, the Silver Surfer is another character who routinely travels at FTL speeds. He was introduced traveling at FTL speeds. He also has extremely heightened sensory awareness that defies the laws of physics. I'm not saying that this is true of all characters, but a lot of the time, there is some justification for it, and Dragon Ball has never shown that it doesn't abide by these laws.

But again this contradicts science and actual real world if you want to get technical. I only brought this point up due to bussani wanting to use real world science to counter Freeza beam from being light speed, by applying science into it.Also to say DBZ characters are not aware I turn your attention to the fact kami is capable of seeing the entire earth from the lookout, multiple times characters are aware of another characters location by feeling their ki energy, old kai was capable of seeing people from earth while he was on grand kai planet. Also I'd advise you to watch Yamcha vs Saiberman fight over where piccolo outright state they don't use their eyes to track people in battle, Dr. Gero even stated they feel energy and don't use their eyes.

Multiple people who believe something that's incorrect doesn't make it right, does it? I mean, how many people believed the world was flat 500 years ago?

So your saying a group of people who read comics and can state a comic in which feats comes from just like that in a website dedicated to comics , and are aware of thors ability/entire carerr admitting he is not FTL combat/travel speed are wrong ok....

When you're dealing with normal humans, our reaction speed is far greater than our traveling speed anyway -- so we can react to things while we're traveling. This analogy should be null and void.

The thing is using the logic that travel speed transfers to combat speed Usein bolt travel speed is greater than an average boxer therfore his reaction time should also be better than a average boxer since he has to move his muscles and hands at incredible speeds, and thus he should be able to blitz them.

The last scan you've shown me i am already aware and has only been shown once, and in an entire career showing where the character is written by multiple authors who change his abilities constantly this is a very poor and inconsistent shownig on the character . if your talking about the time he back handed hulk i've also seen the scan and no where does it hint hulk was moving at ftl speed so that point is null and void. Also your point on Tom you can't actually expect someone as chief editor to not be aware of what goes on that's just a poor cop out.
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How do you know that ki is entirely photons? Last time I checked, photons don't explode violently on impact.

Read my counter point.
If lifting strength doesn't correlate to combat strength, then why is Goku not being able to lift 10 tons a problem.

Read my counter point, goku moved a small mountain as a kid,which would have weighed more than 40 tons, i picked a wrong example for this. I'm sorry.

Even if Gotenks is FTL, how can we be sure Goku is when Gotenks is stronger?

Base gotenks got beat up by Fat buy who is weaker than Kid buu. End of Z goku is close in power to kid buu so he should be stronger than gotenks.

And while we're at it, since "travel speed" doesn't prove "combat speed", then how do we know Gotenks is FTL in combat? This also works both ways.
Because Its been shown that their combat speed is greater than travel speed from the Roshi being only able to run 100 ms in 10.5 ms yet capable of catching machine gun bullets with is bear hands at point blank range moving at a speed of (mach 2 ). Thus establishing formula for said verse.

[Kiyza]

Oh joy another light-speed argument.

I sincerely digress. I probably shouldn't be going off in a tangent like this, but this is a thread to discuss who would win in a fight. The light speed thing is a fair enough part of it, and though I would like to put this to rest as soon as possible, both I and shonenhikada are pretty adamant about our stances. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree with this?

1.Except their auras are often shown to fade very quickly as they move away, and yes it is invalid seeing as your comparing a japanese manga from a different universe from that of an american cartoon that operates in a totally different realm of fiction. I'm stating the SSJ aura has photon, It was outright stated in the manga that the SSJ aura was made out of light energy which was why it was stated to be a treat for Yakon who was said to absorb light energy.

It's a similar artistic effect, though, and you can find it in more than just series like Dragon Ball and the Powerpuff Girls. Just because their aura is made of light doesn't mean that solid, explosive ki is made entirely of light, especially considering it doesn't have the same properties.

2. Also if you want to state it doesn't have to abide by our laws of physics. We can apply the same principle to comics and state that the planet,galaxies, solar systems and the metric systems they use in their plain of media or even their quantified value of the speed of light could be different from that of our earth.

It doesn't necessarily have to abide by our laws of physics because it has no real-world counterpart. Saying that ki absolute has to be bound to the laws of physics is like going back to that Silver Surfer analogy and saying that the Power Cosmic has to be bound by the same laws even though it's a form of energy that doesn't exist in the real world.

3. Except its pretty clear from scaling and looking the scan in the manga (even my own personal work) that gotenks was in the mesophere region of the earth, where ozone is created, and which people cannot breath so gotenks would have had to have made the trip around the world quickly or he would have died.

Except for the fact that Dragon Ball characters can, because 9,000 meters (made a typo with the kilometers a few posts back) above sea level, where Karin Tower sits (which is in the mesosphere) is breathable to them.

Kurrin couldn't see freizers death beam, only goku and to some degree vegeta. I don't know where your going with this ?

If Kuririn couldn't see it, then why should Kame-Sennin be able to see Goku?

Except they were shown to be going out in the manga to win the tournament, if they were fighting at lower speeds than capable OF IN THEIR BASE one of them would just have to gradual increase their speed slowly to win, and blitz the other.

Once again, I bring up the fact that we don't know how much of the fight the audience could see in the first place.

No I am not going back. I should probably use another example,how heavy do you think that small mountain roshi wanted goku to moved weighed, compare this then to the lifting weights and see if that makes sense.

Your previous example was certainly a discrepancy in logic, though. However, the idea does make sense, considering Toriyama said something about how there was only so far someone could push their body whereas ki didn't have such limits.

I understand your point but cannon wise said character do not show these types of speeds in actual combat. Fiction and real world mechanics do not often go hand to hand.

If they don't show those kinds of speeds in actual combat, then how come Thor can throw his hammer faster than light and the Silver Surfer can react at those speeds?

But again this contradicts science and actual real world if you want to get technical. I only brought this point up due to bussani wanting to use real world science to counter Freeza beam from being light speed, by applying science into it.Also to say DBZ characters are not aware I turn your attention to the fact kami is capable of seeing the entire earth from the lookout, multiple times characters are aware of another characters location by feeling their ki energy, old kai was capable of seeing people from earth while he was on grand kai planet. Also I'd advise you to watch Yamcha vs Saiberman fight over where piccolo outright state they don't use their eyes to track people in battle, Dr. Gero even stated they feel energy and don't use their eyes.

Very well then. I'm just saying that it could go either way. Your statement does indeed make sense and I won't argue against it.

So your saying a group of people who read comics and can quote a chapter which feats comes from in a website dedicated to comics , and are aware of thors ability admitting he is not FTL combat/travel speed are wrong ok....

Being comic book fans doesn't mean that they're aware of Thor's ability. I enjoy comics, but I haven't the darndest idea what the upper limits of even Superman encompass. There's just so much material that it's difficult to sort through and can easily lead to mistakes and misconceptions.

The thing is using the logic that travel speed transfers to combat speed Usein bolt travel speed is greater than an average boxer therfore his reaction time should also be better than a average boxer, and he should be able to blitz them.

I'm not saying that reaction speed and travel speed directly correlate to one another. Rather, I'm saying that logically speaking there should be some degree of correlation, otherwise they couldn't move and react well enough to simply navigate.

The last scan you've shown me i am already aware and has only been shown once, and in an entire career showing where the character is written by multiple authors who change his abilities constantly this is a very poor and inconsistent shownig on the character . if your talking about the time he back handed hulk i've also seen the scan and no where does it hint hulk was moving at ftl speed so that point is null and void. Also your point on Tom you can't actually expect someone as chief editor to not be aware of what goes on that's just a poor cop out.

It doesn't show the Hulk moving at that speed -- it shows the Surfer moving at that speed. And yes, if it's a nano second, that makes it high-relativistic or faster than light. And honest to goodness, editors can and do make mistakes when it comes to continuity, especially considering how many plot holes Marvel has in the first place. (They used to give out an award for spotting plot holes, which is just scary.) An editor is not God and doesn't know every little detail about every single character, and their word can be contradicted by what's actually in the comics.

The Silver Surfer has been portrayed to react at relativistic or possibly FTL speeds on two separate occasions. This doesn't include the numerous times he's been fighting someone while moving at those speeds, or heck, doing anything while moving at those speeds. He's a character who does indeed have a habit of pulling things out of his rear, but that's kind of the idea with his power set. Just because he's only been shown to use the ability once doesn't mean he no longer has that ability. (and as I've mentioned, it hasn't been one time)

To throw this logic back at you, no Dragon Ball character can move at FTL speeds even if those attacks are assumed to be FTL because it's only been shown twice over a full 10 years of the series. It's inconsistent with what we see, therefore it can't be used.

But once again, I raise you the question, if we use your logic and say Gotenks' "traveling speed" is not related to his "combat speed", then how can we be sure he's FTL in combat? And how do we know that Goku is FTL in combat if he's weaker than Gotenks anyway?

[shonenhikada]

Oh joy another light-speed argument.

I sincerely digress. I probably shouldn't be going off in a tangent like this, but this is a thread to discuss who would win in a fight. The light speed thing is a fair enough part of it, and though I would like to put this to rest as soon as possible, both I and shonenhikada are pretty adamant about our stances. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree with this?

1.Except their auras are often shown to fade very quickly as they move away, and yes it is invalid seeing as your comparing a japanese manga from a different universe from that of an american cartoon that operates in a totally different realm of fiction. I'm stating the SSJ aura has photon, It was outright stated in the manga that the SSJ aura was made out of light energy which was why it was stated to be a treat for Yakon who was said to absorb light energy.

It's a similar artistic effect, though, and you can find it in more than just series like Dragon Ball and the Powerpuff Girls. Just because their aura is made of light doesn't mean that solid, explosive ki is made entirely of light, especially considering it doesn't have the same properties.

2. Also if you want to state it doesn't have to abide by our laws of physics. We can apply the same principle to comics and state that the planet,galaxies, solar systems and the metric systems they use in their plain of media or even their quantified value of the speed of light could be different from that of our earth.

It doesn't necessarily have to abide by our laws of physics because it has no real-world counterpart. Saying that ki absolute has to be bound to the laws of physics is like going back to that Silver Surfer analogy and saying that the Power Cosmic has to be bound by the same laws even though it's a form of energy that doesn't exist in the real world.

3. Except its pretty clear from scaling and looking the scan in the manga (even my own personal work) that gotenks was in the mesophere region of the earth, where ozone is created, and which people cannot breath so gotenks would have had to have made the trip around the world quickly or he would have died.

Except for the fact that Dragon Ball characters can, because 9,000 meters (made a typo with the kilometers a few posts back) above sea level, where Karin Tower sits (which is in the mesosphere) is breathable to them.

Kurrin couldn't see freizers death beam, only goku and to some degree vegeta. I don't know where your going with this ?

If Kuririn couldn't see it, then why should Kame-Sennin be able to see Goku?

Except they were shown to be going out in the manga to win the tournament, if they were fighting at lower speeds than capable OF IN THEIR BASE one of them would just have to gradual increase their speed slowly to win, and blitz the other.

Once again, I bring up the fact that we don't know how much of the fight the audience could see in the first place.

No I am not going back. I should probably use another example,how heavy do you think that small mountain roshi wanted goku to moved weighed, compare this then to the lifting weights and see if that makes sense.

Your previous example was certainly a discrepancy in logic, though. However, the idea does make sense, considering Toriyama said something about how there was only so far someone could push their body whereas ki didn't have such limits.

I understand your point but cannon wise said character do not show these types of speeds in actual combat. Fiction and real world mechanics do not often go hand to hand.

If they don't show those kinds of speeds in actual combat, then how come Thor can throw his hammer faster than light and the Silver Surfer can react at those speeds?

But again this contradicts science and actual real world if you want to get technical. I only brought this point up due to bussani wanting to use real world science to counter Freeza beam from being light speed, by applying science into it.Also to say DBZ characters are not aware I turn your attention to the fact kami is capable of seeing the entire earth from the lookout, multiple times characters are aware of another characters location by feeling their ki energy, old kai was capable of seeing people from earth while he was on grand kai planet. Also I'd advise you to watch Yamcha vs Saiberman fight over where piccolo outright state they don't use their eyes to track people in battle, Dr. Gero even stated they feel energy and don't use their eyes.

Very well then. I'm just saying that it could go either way. Your statement does indeed make sense and I won't argue against it.

So your saying a group of people who read comics and can quote a chapter which feats comes from in a website dedicated to comics , and are aware of thors ability admitting he is not FTL combat/travel speed are wrong ok....

Being comic book fans doesn't mean that they're aware of Thor's ability. I enjoy comics, but I haven't the darndest idea what the upper limits of even Superman encompass. There's just so much material that it's difficult to sort through and can easily lead to mistakes and misconceptions.

The thing is using the logic that travel speed transfers to combat speed Usein bolt travel speed is greater than an average boxer therfore his reaction time should also be better than a average boxer, and he should be able to blitz them.

I'm not saying that reaction speed and travel speed directly correlate to one another. Rather, I'm saying that logically speaking there should be some degree of correlation, otherwise they couldn't move and react well enough to simply navigate.

The last scan you've shown me i am already aware and has only been shown once, and in an entire career showing where the character is written by multiple authors who change his abilities constantly this is a very poor and inconsistent shownig on the character . if your talking about the time he back handed hulk i've also seen the scan and no where does it hint hulk was moving at ftl speed so that point is null and void. Also your point on Tom you can't actually expect someone as chief editor to not be aware of what goes on that's just a poor cop out.

It doesn't show the Hulk moving at that speed -- it shows the Surfer moving at that speed. And yes, if it's a nano second, that makes it high-relativistic or faster than light. And honest to goodness, editors can and do make mistakes when it comes to continuity, especially considering how many plot holes Marvel has in the first place. (They used to give out an award for spotting plot holes, which is just scary.) An editor is not God and doesn't know every little detail about every single character, and their word can be contradicted by what's actually in the comics.

The Silver Surfer has been portrayed to react at relativistic or possibly FTL speeds on two separate occasions. This doesn't include the numerous times he's been fighting someone while moving at those speeds, or heck, doing anything while moving at those speeds. He's a character who does indeed have a habit of pulling things out of his rear, but that's kind of the idea with his power set. Just because he's only been shown to use the ability once doesn't mean he no longer has that ability. (and as I've mentioned, it hasn't been one time)

To throw this logic back at you, no Dragon Ball character can move at FTL speeds even if those attacks are assumed to be FTL because it's only been shown twice over a full 10 years of the series. It's inconsistent with what we see, therefore it can't be used.

But once again, I raise you the question, if we use your logic and say Gotenks' "traveling speed" is not related to his "combat speed", then how can we be sure he's FTL in combat? And how do we know that Goku is FTL in combat if he's weaker than Gotenks anyway?

Oh this argument is never going to end.....You know what we agree to disagree and leave it at that. You believe travel speed and combat speed equal then that's good for you.

You wanna believe that real world physics and basic principle should be ignored for dbz and be applied only to comics that's good for you.

You believe that goten and trunks combat speed in buu arc is lower than kuririn and roshi in the 22nd budokai that's good for you. Despite them disheartening and the announcer clearly stating afterwards the crowd could not see what they did, and them having to explain the whole fight.

You believe Gotenks travel near the earth atmosphere where their is breathable oxygen. Despite this I'm ok with that.




You want to believe combat is weaker than travel speed in dbz , despite me using roshi example to show otherwise, I am ok with that. It's late its tiered and I don't want to be waking up having to keep typing and wasting 10+ pages just to discuss this stuff.

--
In my opinion and a large majority of people who read comics. Thor is not ftl combat speed, and reaction speed and is about as fast as lightning. Ths is slower than goku's combat speed and I beleive goku can just outright blitz thor. You can choose to disagree, but you've already said who you think would win no need to shove it down people's throats who disagree with you.

Lastly,

To throw this logic back at you, no Dragon Ball character can move at FTL speeds even if those attacks are assumed to be FTL because it's only been shown twice over a full 10 years of the series. It's inconsistent with what we see, therefore it can't be used.

DBZ is written by one author. Surfer is written by multiple authors who change character abilities to suit the story. Its totally different premise.

But once again, I raise you the question, if we use your logic and say Gotenks' "traveling speed" is not related to his "combat speed", then how can we be sure he's FTL in combat? And how do we know that Goku is FTL in combat if he's weaker than Gotenks anyway?

Roshi argument

If they don't show those kinds of speeds in actual combat, then how come Thor can throw his hammer faster than light and the Silver Surfer can react at those speeds?

Real world logic doesn't always work for fiction. The scientific answer could be reference frames, its like surfers board and thors hammers can be equivalent to that of a subway car moving say at 200 ms^-1, your on the subway and everyone relative to you appear normal (you are in fact moving at 200 ms-1), while someone looking outside of the train would see you as a blur as you pass them bye. Does this mean you can fight at 200 ms_1 speeds. Also thor has control over his hammer so...yeah.

Once again, I bring up the fact that we don't know how much of the fight the audience could see in the first place.

Their is a giant scene showing the audience reacting and commenting on them fight in the manga,and even a scene of a guy standing up with his eyes poped out.

If Kuririn couldn't see it, then why should Kame-Sennin be able to see Goku?

Your talking about how he could see goku and Freeza fight ? I dont know in all honesty kami being able to see peopole on earth from far distance form a lookout far in the sky does not make sense, or old kai being able to see women on earth deespite being in another galaxy also does not make sense but that what happens.

It doesn't necessarily have to abide by our laws of physics because it has no real-world counterpart. Saying that ki absolute has to be bound to the laws of physics is like going back to that Silver Surfer analogy and saying that the Power Cosmic has to be bound by the same laws even though it's a form of energy that doesn't exist in the real world.

We can say the same thing for marvel

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This is my last point by the way I really just want to go to bed now.

[caejones]

1. Atmospheric glow-thingies? That's the gases being charged and then that energy being released as light. Yakon can eat it all he wants; that doesn't make it relevant to how fast Gotenks was flying.
2. Roshi's bullet-catching Vs his time on the 100m is a good point, I give you that.
3. Why are we using primary sources for DB, but secondary sources for Marvel? "Appeal to the Majority" = logical fallacy (if that's relevant...).

[shonenhikada]

1. Atmospheric glow-thingies? That's the gases being charged and then that energy being released as light. Yakon can eat it all he wants; that doesn't make it relevant to how fast Gotenks was flying.
2. Roshi's bullet-catching Vs his time on the 100m is a good point, I give you that.
3. Why are we using primary sources for DB, but secondary sources for Marvel? "Appeal to the Majority" = logical fallacy (if that's relevant...).

When did I use secondary source for marvel ?

[Bussani]

1. Except maybe the fact gotenks SSJ aura and stream is in fact made out of photons as evident by the fact that Yakon eats light energy. Gotenks is able to zip around before the stream of visible light is able to dissipate into the surrounding air which takes 1 x 10^-9 sec. Also gotenks couldn't have taken so long as 29 mins since saiyans were stated to not be able to survive in space for long periods (this was Freeza plan after all), and would have suffocated in space.

let's pull out the old science book and show why that can't happen.

You can't start talking about photons and then say to put down the science book. Toriyama obviously drew a trail because, if he hadn't, you wouldn't be able to tell Gotenks had circled the world at all. In fact, that's the real reason Gotenks looks so out of scale with the world and looks like he's flying at a ridiculous height. It would be really hard to get the point across in a single panel without doing it this way.

2. That's a very good question, but it could be that they were more impressed he got a new technique that allows him to do that without them actually seeing him move rather than the actual distance.

I don't think so. When Goku teleports, Vegeta initially dismisses it as him using super speed to vanish. It's only when he shows them Kame-sennin's sunglasses and they realize how far he went that they're impressed. In other words, it's definitely the distance that impressed them.

I only brought this point up due to bussani wanting to use real world science to counter Freeza beam from being light speed

Actually, I didn't want to do that. You said that Piccolo not being able to see the beams implied that the beams moved at light speed. If we're not using "real world science", then Piccolo not being able to see them doesn't imply that at all.

Anyway, this is really just illustrating my point. The math and the altitudes and the trail of photons and all of that--that's all over-analyzing things if you ask me. It's too much jumping through hoops to reach a conclusion that simply doesn't seem to be what the author was going for.

Let's use this well-known Flash example to illustrate my point. The narration box itself tells us that Flash performed this feat at "a hair's breadth short of the speed of light." However, if you actually do the math with the numbers from that very same narration, take into account the distance he was travelling and how many times he'd have to run back and forth (and taking into account that he took one or two at a time), you'll find that he would actually have to have been going trillions of times the speed of light. So what do you believe? The author, or the math? In the end, that's up to you. It's a matter of opinion that'll differ from person to person, and will probably be influenced by several things. At the end of the day, I still think it's unnecessary for Gotenks--or anyone else in Dragon Ball--to be faster than light.

[dbgtFO]

@shonenhikada
Kame-sennin didn't run a 100m slower than Usain Bolt, Krillin did(10.4s)...
Kame-sennin's time was 5.6 seconds so on average his speed was 64.29km/h.

[shonenhikada]

1. Except maybe the fact gotenks SSJ aura and stream is in fact made out of photons as evident by the fact that Yakon eats light energy. Gotenks is able to zip around before the stream of visible light is able to dissipate into the surrounding air which takes 1 x 10^-9 sec. Also gotenks couldn't have taken so long as 29 mins since saiyans were stated to not be able to survive in space for long periods (this was Freeza plan after all), and would have suffocated in space.

let's pull out the old science book and show why that can't happen.

You can't start talking about photons and then say to put down the science book. Toriyama obviously drew a trail because, if he hadn't, you wouldn't be able to tell Gotenks had circled the world at all. In fact, that's the real reason Gotenks looks so out of scale with the world and looks like he's flying at a ridiculous height. It would be really hard to get the point across in a single panel without doing it this way.

2. That's a very good question, but it could be that they were more impressed he got a new technique that allows him to do that without them actually seeing him move rather than the actual distance.

I don't think so. When Goku teleports, Vegeta initially dismisses it as him using super speed to vanish. It's only when he shows them Kame-sennin's sunglasses and they realize how far he went that they're impressed. In other words, it's definitely the distance that impressed them.

I only brought this point up due to bussani wanting to use real world science to counter Freeza beam from being light speed

Actually, I didn't want to do that. You said that Piccolo not being able to see the beams implied that the beams moved at light speed. If we're not using "real world science", then Piccolo not being able to see them doesn't imply that at all.

Anyway, this is really just illustrating my point. The math and the altitudes and the trail of photons and all of that--that's all over-analyzing things if you ask me. It's too much jumping through hoops to reach a conclusion that simply doesn't seem to be what the author was going for.

Let's use this well-known Flash example to illustrate my point. The narration box itself tells us that Flash performed this feat at "a hair's breadth short of the speed of light." However, if you actually do the math with the numbers from that very same narration, take into account the distance he was travelling and how many times he'd have to run back and forth (and taking into account that he took one or two at a time), you'll find that he would actually have to have been going trillions of times the speed of light. So what do you believe? The author, or the math? In the end, that's up to you. It's a matter of opinion that'll differ from person to person, and will probably be influenced by several things. At the end of the day, I still think it's unnecessary for Gotenks--or anyone else in Dragon Ball--to be faster than light.

You can't start talking about photons and then say to put down the science book. Toriyama obviously drew a trail because, if he hadn't, you wouldn't be able to tell Gotenks had circled the world at all. In fact, that's the real reason Gotenks looks so out of scale with the world and looks like he's flying at a ridiculous height. It would be really hard to get the point across in a single panel without doing it this way.

So I guess by your logic we should put in science book for DC and Marvel when a character is moving FTL, and debunk it as false, since sciene prove that nothing can go faster than light. Do you Toriyama or how he thinks ?

Actually, I didn't want to do that. You said that Piccolo not being able to see the beams implied that the beams moved at light speed. If we're not using "real world science", then Piccolo not being able to see them doesn't imply that at all.

Piccolo not being able to see the beam, yet capable of producing relativistic beams in start of DB and being able to see them, yet we should assume then that the beams fired by frieza who a more poweerful piccolo cannot even register and states that it appears as a flash of light meaning it not light speed right ??? Oh and to say this isn't done in an instant I bring you back to the Roshi vs Great Ape goku fight. Roshi fires a kamehama to destroy the moon in an instant before goku has time to stomp on him, he did it so fast that people thought he killed goku so to make up crap like ah it wasn't 2 sec he did it in 5 mins and waited patiently while gohan was destroying the area around him is just BS.

I don't think so. When Goku teleports, Vegeta initially dismisses it as him using super speed to vanish. It's only when he shows them Kame-sennin's sunglasses and they realize how far he went that they're impressed. In other words, it's definitely the distance that impressed them.

Goku travel snake way in 2 days with PL of 8000 this puts him at Mach 30

Kaio-ken x3 Goku in the Saiyan Saga would be as fast as mach 90. Base Goku, after arriving on Namek, is clearly faster than that (able to blitz Ginyu force members with power levels in the 50-60 thousand range).

Goku is, at this point, capable of Kaio-ken x10, meaning of speeds up to mach 900.

Freeza, after powering up to his final form, can move so fast that characters above the power level of million (meaning that they can reasonably be estimated above Goku after his arrival on Namek) cannot follow his movements.

Base Goku matches his speed. So Kaio-ken x20 Goku would be around mach 18,000.

SSJ goku is clearly faster and stronger than 50% Freeza which puts him at mach 18,000+

In any case, all this seems to strongly suggest that power level and speed are very closely related. But I wouldn't go so far to propose that the latter is directly proportional to the former.

This is all low balling of the character speed. Roshi's place is 10 KM away, someone with Mach 18,000 would take less than 2 sec to reach Roshi place. This just consolidate they are more impresss with the technique than the speed, or that its a inconsistency in the manga.

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This isn't about flash BTW, i will agree with you guys that flash does have FTL combat speed because he's shown it on a consistent basis. The scan you provided me shows an impressive feat by flash,and overall it just shows the writer does not know what the hell their talking about. Circumventing the idea then that the author of this story are not physicist, or take into consideration their claim for a character when they give the characters these distances/time without calculating that its in fact actually make sense. I mean they don't really expect people to calculate this they just make up a number, with distance that seems impressive in order to cell comic books.

[Rocketman]

DB's Moon is much smaller and closer to its parent that our Moon is.

[Kaboom]

This discussion is all well and good, I suppose. But shonenhikada, would you please pay some more mind to your grammar? I'm seeing a lot of missing punctuation, missing or mispelled words, the wrong "there/they're/their" all over the place, and so forth. I've corrected a few of your posts here and there already, but I can't be doing so when they're this long. Thanks.

[sonikku956]

Iron Fist vs Chichi at the 23rd Tenkachi Budokai.