What if Kid Buu didn't blow up the Earth?

[Kaboom]

I think it's best left as, "Genki (whatever is donated to fuel a Spirit Bomb) is not necessarily proportionate to battle power."

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That goes completely against Vegeta's word. Genki in general only took a small portion of ki in the past. Again, Vegeta said "we won't take a little bit" "we will gather "KI" right up to their limits". So this was a majority portion. That being said, Gohan gave most of his ki. Your theory doesn't explain why Kaioshin was out of energy after he raised his hands. He gives us a clear verification that it sucks all the ki out of you right up to your limits just as Vegeta stated. If Gohan was truly stronger than Pure boo, then Goku would have stated it and Gohan wouldn't be sitting on his ass with Gotenks on Earth just as they are all moments from death not even suggesting to go up to destroy Boo. They don't even suggest Gohan for the third wish. After Boo is defeated, they don't suggest Gohan and are hesitating over the possibility of Boo returning. Why wonder what to do when they have Gohan to save the day?

I found a quote in the Daizenshuu that very much speaks for itself : Goku continues to seek out the strongest and he waited for Boo's reincarnation "above all else". Why "above all else" if Pure boo was supposedly "weaker" than Goku and Gohan after ten years of him training? It says that Pure boo was the strongest and that explains why Goku said Gohan's ki wasn't enough after gathering it all up to his limits. This is why we go by what's stated instead of coming up with conspiracy theory. It's clear as day that Pure boo was stronger than Gohan.

Think, there are 2 other parts to Ki ; yuuki and shouki (bravery and character) Well Goku's yuuki and shouki has not changed ever since he was a little kid. But he got a lot stronger. So we have weak goku who's yuuki and shouki is the same as the Goku who is fighting kid buu (who is a lot stronger than kid Goku). Which means the thing that increased was genki. So that means genki is where a majority of strength comes from. It can be said genki makes up 95%+ of ki. This is a kids comic book / show so it's not going to be so complicated.

Toriyama is fairly inconsistent with the words he uses to describe almost anything over the course of the series. Heck, when the technique if first introduced and Kaio-sama explains it, he doesn't even state that it uses "ki", just "energy". Vegeta isn't the example you should be using in your argument though, because what does he know about the Genki Dama? To our knowledge, the only experience Vegeta has with the technique is that he got hit by one and that it hurt like a bitch in the morning. During the whole request for energy for the Genki Dama in the Buu Arc, Goku clearly tells Vegeta that they'll need genki and then requests that the Earthlings donate as much genki as they can after Vegeta asks them for their ki. Yes, Goku uses "ki" as well, but in context, its comes off as him being more general "just because" rather than specifically saying they are taking all types of ki because he only uses it while talking to himself or Vegeta, not the Earthlings.

And, as previously stated, we have no solid evidence on how ki and all its parts actually work. Genki, yuuki and shouki were only given as examples in the Super Exciting Guide, as the word used along side them was "ya", meaning the statement doesn't necessarily include just the things listed. The real bulk of a character's power could be determined by a portion of ki that wasn't even listed. Who knows. Just by definition though, we know genki is an important part of a person's whole ki. Genki is vigor/stamina. Donating all of it WILL exhaust you greatly. Even if you have other types of ki remaining, you won't be fit to do much of anything, as the series itself shows us after the donations in the Buu Arc, Kaioshin included. All of which proves that they gave up the most important portion of their ki, not the majority of it it for the super human characters.

Also, Goku did suggest bringing Gohan and Gotenks back to life and fight after SS3 failed him. That alone should prove they are stronger than Goku was, as the main character himself thought it to be the best course of action. Vegeta was the one who decided against that because he rather risk the fate of the universe on the Earthlings instead. Really, no matter how hard you try though, you won't find a great in-universe explanation for why Toriyama decided to abandon them in favor of a more dramatic Genki Dama ending to the series. You just wont. As for why they didn't wish Gohan to the battlefield with the third wish, he'd have been useless by that point. He had already given up his genki and wasn't fit to fight. The fretted over Buu's return because the pink lil bastard is unpredictable and they had no way of telling if the next evil spawn would have been stronger than the one they fought this time. As far as they knew, even Gohan may not have been enough in the third coming of demon bubblegum.

As for Goku waiting on Buu's reincarnation, it was just another challenge. Vegeta was only on par with him up till SS2, and he normally pulls ahead of him in the end anyway. He probably could have tried to spend a couple of years sparring with Gotenks or trying to convince Gohan and his new found power to spar with him. But Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting and the two brats grew out of it eventually as well. Uub was just his hope for something to really get his blood pumping after the world of fighting became mundane to him in times of peace.

BTW, your whole last paragraph is nothing but personal conjecture. Most of it is based on your own assumptions and not the facts like you are trying to pass off, because we have nothing to base half your statements on to begin with. I mean, who says Goku's shouki and yuuki haven't changed? Contrary to popular belief, Goku did change as a person as he grew. Even if they weren't drastic changes, we have no idea how they would affect those parts of his ki. Honestly, your explanation is no less of a "conspiracy theory", as you deem to call it, than my own. At least when I bring up a theory I admit they are riddled with "might", "could", "maybe", etc., because almost none of this can actually be proven for either side of the debate, even with the information from the series and guides...

[Twinbee_Mk_II]

A Buu thread devolving into power arguments? I am suprised not.

Avoiding the obvious gripes, I'd say most likely, given how DragonBall usually runs, the fight would get wild, the players would get desperate, and somehow Goku would end up winning, dispite not being as strong as Gohan. We all know that's how Toriyama would write it had it taken that turn. DragonBall is a lot of things, but unpredictable isn't one of them

[Saiga]

A Buu thread devolving into power arguments? I am suprised not.

Avoiding the obvious gripes, I'd say most likely, given how DragonBall usually runs, the fight would get wild, the players would get desperate, and somehow Goku would end up winning, dispite not being as strong as Gohan. We all know that's how Toriyama would write it had it taken that turn. DragonBall is a lot of things, but unpredictable isn't one of them

Sure it is. The first time watching/reading through I was routinely surprised by the direction Toriyama took things.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

That goes completely against Vegeta's word. Genki in general only took a small portion of ki in the past. Again, Vegeta said "we won't take a little bit" "we will gather "KI" right up to their limits". So this was a majority portion. That being said, Gohan gave most of his ki. Your theory doesn't explain why Kaioshin was out of energy after he raised his hands. He gives us a clear verification that it sucks all the ki out of you right up to your limits just as Vegeta stated. If Gohan was truly stronger than Pure boo, then Goku would have stated it and Gohan wouldn't be sitting on his ass with Gotenks on Earth just as they are all moments from death not even suggesting to go up to destroy Boo. They don't even suggest Gohan for the third wish. After Boo is defeated, they don't suggest Gohan and are hesitating over the possibility of Boo returning. Why wonder what to do when they have Gohan to save the day?

I found a quote in the Daizenshuu that very much speaks for itself : Goku continues to seek out the strongest and he waited for Boo's reincarnation "above all else". Why "above all else" if Pure boo was supposedly "weaker" than Goku and Gohan after ten years of him training? It says that Pure boo was the strongest and that explains why Goku said Gohan's ki wasn't enough after gathering it all up to his limits. This is why we go by what's stated instead of coming up with conspiracy theory. It's clear as day that Pure boo was stronger than Gohan.

Think, there are 2 other parts to Ki ; yuuki and shouki (bravery and character) Well Goku's yuuki and shouki has not changed ever since he was a little kid. But he got a lot stronger. So we have weak goku who's yuuki and shouki is the same as the Goku who is fighting kid buu (who is a lot stronger than kid Goku). Which means the thing that increased was genki. So that means genki is where a majority of strength comes from. It can be said genki makes up 95%+ of ki. This is a kids comic book / show so it's not going to be so complicated.

Toriyama is fairly inconsistent with the words he uses to describe almost anything over the course of the series. Heck, when the technique if first introduced and Kaio-sama explains it, he doesn't even state that it uses "ki", just "energy". Vegeta isn't the example you should be using in your argument though, because what does he know about the Genki Dama? To our knowledge, the only experience Vegeta has with the technique is that he got hit by one and that it hurt like a bitch in the morning. During the whole request for energy for the Genki Dama in the Buu Arc, Goku clearly tells Vegeta that they'll need genki and then requests that the Earthlings donate as much genki as they can after Vegeta asks them for their ki. Yes, Goku uses "ki" as well, but in context, its comes off as him being more general "just because" rather than specifically saying they are taking all types of ki because he only uses it while talking to himself or Vegeta, not the Earthlings.

And, as previously stated, we have no solid evidence on how ki and all its parts actually work. Genki, yuuki and shouki were only given as examples in the Super Exciting Guide, as the word used along side them was "ya", meaning the statement doesn't necessarily include just the things listed. The real bulk of a character's power could be determined by a portion of ki that wasn't even listed. Who knows. Just by definition though, we know genki is an important part of a person's whole ki. Genki is vigor/stamina. Donating all of it WILL exhaust you greatly. Even if you have other types of ki remaining, you won't be fit to do much of anything, as the series itself shows us after the donations in the Buu Arc, Kaioshin included. All of which proves that they gave up the most important portion of their ki, not the majority of it it for the super human characters.

Also, Goku did suggest bringing Gohan and Gotenks back to life and fight after SS3 failed him. That alone should prove they are stronger than Goku was, as the main character himself thought it to be the best course of action. Vegeta was the one who decided against that because he rather risk the fate of the universe on the Earthlings instead. Really, no matter how hard you try though, you won't find a great in-universe explanation for why Toriyama decided to abandon them in favor of a more dramatic Genki Dama ending to the series. You just wont. As for why they didn't wish Gohan to the battlefield with the third wish, he'd have been useless by that point. He had already given up his genki and wasn't fit to fight. The fretted over Buu's return because the pink lil bastard is unpredictable and they had no way of telling if the next evil spawn would have been stronger than the one they fought this time. As far as they knew, even Gohan may not have been enough in the third coming of demon bubblegum.

As for Goku waiting on Buu's reincarnation, it was just another challenge. Vegeta was only on par with him up till SS2, and he normally pulls ahead of him in the end anyway. He probably could have tried to spend a couple of years sparring with Gotenks or trying to convince Gohan and his new found power to spar with him. But Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting and the two brats grew out of it eventually as well. Uub was just his hope for something to really get his blood pumping after the world of fighting became mundane to him in times of peace.

BTW, your whole last paragraph is nothing but personal conjecture. Most of it is based on your own assumptions and not the facts like you are trying to pass off, because we have nothing to base half your statements on to begin with. I mean, who says Goku's shouki and yuuki haven't changed? Contrary to popular belief, Goku did change as a person as he grew. Even if they weren't drastic changes, we have no idea how they would affect those parts of his ki. Honestly, your explanation is no less of a "conspiracy theory", as you deem to call it, than my own. At least when I bring up a theory I admit they are riddled with "might", "could", "maybe", etc., because almost none of this can actually be proven for either side of the debate, even with the information from the series and guides...

Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: "Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there's enough to beat him as he is now.

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P13.4-6
Goku: "You planets close to Namek! Give me just a little bit of your genki...!"

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P2.2-5, P3.1-2
Kuririn: "It-it's huge...And it's getting even bigger..."
Piccolo: "Is it really that big?"
Gohan: "On Earth it was about this big [he holds out his hands]"
Kuririn: "Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters...He shouldn't be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet...Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets..."

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!"

So as can be seen from these quotes, genki and ki are interchangeable. They alternate between the two repeatedly. This can't be an accident since this happens too often for it to be a mistake.

We also know that Ki is comprised of Genki, yuuki, and shouki. Yuuki and shouki have stayed constant for Goku ever since he was little. But he got much stronger. So the only variable of ki that could change is genki. You're saying Goku's character changed throughout the series? Sorry I don't see it. In fact Toriyama kept Goku's voice as an adult like a child's to make a bigger emphasis on how his personality did not change.

The moment we talk about other elements of ki, you complicate something simple. Dragonball is not creating a new science. It's something for kids. Does this sound like an excuse? Well seeing as how ki and genki are used together it's not a crazy statement to say that genki is a majority of ki.

As for saying Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to come over does not prove that they are stronger. Lets not forget at this time Goku believed he alone could win. But now he wants 2 people to do a job he thought he alone could do? And Goku dismisses this idea in favor of a move that has never worked. So no he does not believe Gohan and Gotenks can get the job done if he resorts to a move that never worked (if you bring in Toriyama wanted Goku to be hero then I am going to say heroes in Toriyama's works are always the strongest good guy. This has always been true in his work. And Vegito is comprised of the hero and his rival so Vegito is naturally strongest).

If Gohan was truly stronger than kid buu then he would have been brought over, plain and simple.

And Uub likes to fight? Did Goku verify that in any way before moving in with Uub and wanting that fight? So if Goku sees Uub as the next challenge would that not mean that Goku saw Kid Buu above all other fighters he has faced (even Gohan)?

But lets not argue over this. I just want to make my point clear. We do not have 1 specific quote that says Goku was surpassed yet we have Vegeta say Goku is #1/the best. I know people say it's only between them 2 but I don't see it that way. Gohan does not get any statement like this.

I'm waiting for the new dbz movie. I hope it's canon and can end this debate. If that movie is canon and says Gohan is stronger than Goku then I will accept it. If it says Goku is stronger I hope to see you accept Goku > Gohan.

For this topic however, I think Kid Buu would not play around like he did if Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks all attacked at once. If they took turns then all 3 would get their ass kicked. If all of them went at kid buu together, they would get their ass kicked. In the end a genki dama or a fusion involving Goku would be needed.

[Bussani]

So as can be seen from these quotes, genki and ki are interchangeable. They alternate between the two repeatedly. This can't be an accident since this happens too often for it to be a mistake.

Like I said: genki is ki, but not all ki is genki.

We also know that Ki is comprised of Genki, yuuki, and shouki. Yuuki and shouki have stayed constant for Goku ever since he was little. But he got much stronger. So the only variable of ki that could change is genki.

Did you miss the part about those only being three examples of the things that make up your ki? It's implied--more than implied, really--that there are more.

I'm waiting for the new dbz movie. I hope it's canon and can end this debate.

There is no official canon, so how's that going to work?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yeah, I don't mean to sound rude here, but I'm done. Half this isn't even a debate, it's just you ignoring half the points of an argument just because they call to attention how you are using your own assumptions and theories as facts. Not worth continuing...

[Kid Buu]

Couldn't Dende use his healing powers to wake up Gohan?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Couldn't Dende use his healing powers to wake up Gohan?

Sure, but why should he? The point of using Genki Dama instead of bringing Gohan & Gotenks was that the whole Earth would defeat Boo with their own strength, instead of relying on some anonymous super-warriors.