The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

Yes it does. Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, and it requires a significant level of base power to achieve in the first place. Goten and Trunks are powerful little tykes, which is made clear by both manga and guidebooks.

[In Brightest Day]

Thanks to Guru's power up, a pretty huge gap was opened up between Kurilin and Yamcha. Kurilin became over 50 times stronger than Saiyan Arc Yamcha. I don't think fusion creates a boost that big, or Gotenks would be an absolute monster with SS3.

Just out of curiosity, why do you compare Tenshinhan and Yamcha in the Saiyan arc to characters later on in the series? I've never understood that.

And Tenshinhan mastered an attack that made him give Semi-Perfect Cell trouble (even if it didn't hurt Cell, but that isn't the point I'm making). Shouldn't that be more impressive than mastering Kaioken?

[Saiga]

Thanks to Guru's power up, a pretty huge gap was opened up between Kurilin and Yamcha. Kurilin became over 50 times stronger than Saiyan Arc Yamcha. I don't think fusion creates a boost that big, or Gotenks would be an absolute monster with SS3.

Just out of curiosity, why do you compare Tenshinhan and Yamcha in the Saiyan arc to characters later on in the series? I've never understood that.

It's the last battle power I can use as a reference, and the last time they're seen fighting.

[dbzfan7]

Yes it does. Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, and it requires a significant level of base power to achieve in the first place. Goten and Trunks are powerful little tykes, which is made clear by both manga and guidebooks.

fusion brings out a much better result then super saiyan. hence why goku relied on it. hence why he put all of his hopes on the fusion. super saiyan was a bonus but it would not have been enough. goku told piccolo piccolo it was that ridiculously powerful which is why gotenks could even compete with any form of boo. without that multiplier he wouldn't even be stronger then goku or vegeta. thats why gotenks is far above both of them. ssj3 was never even expected in the first place. if evil boo never appeared then gotenks could have taken him out with ssj or without it post rosat. just like how you are speculating on power levels i speculate the only way gotenks would even be close to any form of boo is by multiplication. if it was goten and trunks ssj3 they would be effortlessly destroyed by any form of boo. fusion>ssj. also potara was only stronger cause of the fact it doesn't require equal power levels. it was used due to the fact fusion dance takes time that they didn't have. personally i find potara and fusion the same unless the two fighters aren't equal power levels then potara is better.

[In Brightest Day]

Thanks to Guru's power up, a pretty huge gap was opened up between Kurilin and Yamcha. Kurilin became over 50 times stronger than Saiyan Arc Yamcha. I don't think fusion creates a boost that big, or Gotenks would be an absolute monster with SS3.

Just out of curiosity, why do you compare Tenshinhan and Yamcha in the Saiyan arc to characters later on in the series? I've never understood that.

It's the last battle power I can use as a reference, and the last time they're seen fighting.

But they're different points in the series. I don't see how you could use that as a fair comparison.

[Saiga]

But they're different points in the series. I don't see how you could make a comparison that is fair.

It's not meant to be a direct comparison, but it shows the kind of gap that they'd have to close between the Saiyan arc and the time frame of Kurilin's power up to be even with him.

@dbzfan7

You can't know that fusion brings out a greater result than Super Saiyan. Everyone was counting on Super Saiyan Gotenks to save the day, Piccolo said that base Gotenks wouldn't be able to defeat Boo and he's totally right. And you don't know the gap between the kids and the adults, but do you really think Goku and Vegeta are more than 50x as powerful as the kids who could fight on par with #18? That's not speculation, that's making wild claims without providing any basis for your reasoning.

[In Brightest Day]

Fair enough, I guess. Still, if we're using the ability to master techniques as a prerequisite for becoming stronger, then Tien mastering a Ki-Ko-Ho that could give Cell some trouble would basically make him a God.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

fusion brings out a much better result then super saiyan.

I don't think so. From the guidebooks, we have these:

Super Saiyan = x50
Super Saiyan 2 = x2
Super Saiyan 3 = x4

Gotenks = several times stronger than Goten or Trunks
Vegetto = several times stronger than Goku or Vegeta

So it's safe to assume that also:

Kibitoshin = several times stronger than Kaioshin or Kibito
Gogeta = several times stronger than Goku or Vegeta

The "several times" number seems to vary between everyone, possibly depends on the similarities between the two persons that merge or the merging way (Fusion or Potara).

Fair enough, I guess. Still, if we're using the ability to master techniques as a prerequisite for becoming stronger, then Tenshinhan mastering a Ki-Ko-Ho that could give Cell some trouble would basically make him a God.

Tenshinhan knows Kiko-ho since the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, it was Shin Kiko-ho that could push back Cell. He could push him because Kiko-ho's destructive power is by nature way stronger than the user. And that's the only thing he could do to Cell, push him back without giving him a single scratch.

[In Brightest Day]

Fair enough, I guess. Still, if we're using the ability to master techniques as a prerequisite for becoming stronger, then Tenshinhan mastering a Ki-Ko-Ho that could give Cell some trouble would basically make him a God.

Tenshinhan knows Kiko-ho since the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, it was Shin Kiko-ho that could push back Cell. He could push him because Kiko-ho's destructive power is by nature way stronger than the user. And that's the only thing he could do to Cell, push him back without giving him a single scratch.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to say this, as it wasn't even close to the point I was trying to make.

I'm just saying that if Saiga's theory of having the ability to master techniques can be an indication of how powerful the person is then Tenshinhan would be ludicrously strong. Just because neither Tenshinhan and Yamcha (from what we've seen, but don't know for sure) didn't master the Kaio-Ken, that doesn't hold any bearing over how strong they actually are.

[dbzfan7]

But they're different points in the series. I don't see how you could make a comparison that is fair.

It's not meant to be a direct comparison, but it shows the kind of gap that they'd have to close between the Saiyan arc and the time frame of Kurilin's power up to be even with him.

@dbzfan7

You can't know that fusion brings out a greater result than Super Saiyan. Everyone was counting on Super Saiyan Gotenks to save the day, Piccolo said that base Gotenks wouldn't be able to defeat Boo and he's totally right. And you don't know the gap between the kids and the adults, but do you really think Goku and Vegeta are more than 50x as powerful as the kids who could fight on par with #18? That's not speculation, that's making wild claims without providing any basis for your reasoning.

thats exactly what your doing. your using flawed sources and you bases is speculation and way overestimation of ssj. and fusion is better then ssj, goku was so amazed of how to metamorese were nothing special until after fusion where they became incredible. fusion was freaking invented by toriyama so the kids could catch up to boo since ssj wasn't going to cut it. also did i say goku and vegeta were 50x more powerful the goten and trunks. also piccolo said that before the rosat training and that word stood because fat boo became evil boo. seriously do the math then fusion would barely make a difference compared to what goku claimed.

@DBZGTKOSDH where does it say fusion make the users only several times stronger and less than ssj. if that were true boo would have crushed vegetto and gotenks easily. guide book also said vegetto is stronger then ssj3 in base. that means goku and vegetas fusion is more then a 400x boost.

Fusion
First Appearance: Chapter 469
Category: special
People: Trunks & Goten
Special Characteristics: The specialty technique of the people of Planet Metamor. Goku learned this art from some people from Planet Metamor who he met in the afterlife. It is an art where two humans can merge together only if their power and body size are very close, and through merging the two users give birth to a separate person who possesses power and techniques far surpassing what they had on their own. When merging, the two users must perform the Fusion pose symmetrically; this pose if very embarrassing for two adults to perform. In the story, Trunks and Goten perform this Fusion, but they fail two times because their pose is slightly wrong. When they fail at this technique, it greatly changes the body type of the resulting person, making them fat or thin, and rather than strengthening the two users, it makes them weaker. The name after merging becomes a combination of the two users’ respective names, and in Trunks and Goten’s case, they ended up named Gotenks. Furthermore, after merging, their clothes are those of the citizens of Planet Metamor. (Daizenshuu 2, p.118/Daizenshuu 4, p.116)
Anime
People: Son Goku & Vegeta
Special Characteristics: A Fusion between Goku and Vegeta came to fruition only in the movie “The Rebirth of Fusion!!~”. Vegeta hated the idea of performing Fusion with his rival, Goku. But cornered by the evil enemy Janenba, he ends up reluctantly performing Fusion with Goku. However, they fail once. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)

from Daiz 6

Interviewer: “Fusion” is another way to power up, right? How was that concept born?

Toriyama: That, I think, as a concept, came out of a discussion with Katsura-kun [Masakazu Katsura, a manga creator] that ‘There is nothing stronger than Super Saiya-jin.’ We usually just fool around with each other, and he jokingly said at the time, ‘In that case, maybe the only remaining way to become stronger is to fuse together.’ I replied, ‘Hey, that’s a great idea! You do say good things sometimes. This is the first time you’ve helped me.’ (laughter) That’s how that idea was born.

fusion was made to be better then super saiyan

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama: That, I think, as a concept, came out of a discussion with Katsura-kun [Masakazu Katsura, a manga creator] that ‘There is nothing stronger than Super Saiya-jin.’ We usually just fool around with each other, and he jokingly said at the time, ‘In that case, maybe the only remaining way to become stronger is to fuse together.’ I replied, ‘Hey, that’s a great idea! You do say good things sometimes. This is the first time you’ve helped me.’ (laughter) That’s how that idea was born.

fusion was made to be better then super saiyan

That's something that I'd never noticed before, even though I have read this interview again before. I'm sure that base Vegetto is more than 50 times stronger than base Goku/Vegeta. Not sure for Gotenks, at least not yet. I have to think & reconsider some things now.

[Saiga]

Except that none of that matters, since the idea was them to use fusion and Super Saiyan...

[Fox666]

I don't think so. From the guidebooks, we have these:

Super Saiyan = x50
Super Saiyan 2 = x2
Super Saiyan 3 = x4

Gotenks = several times stronger than Goten or Trunks
Vegetto = several times stronger than Goku or Vegeta

So it's safe to assume that also:

Kibitoshin = several times stronger than Kaioshin or Kibito
Gogeta = several times stronger than Goku or Vegeta

The Super Exciting Guide suggests Vegetto is the multiplication of Goku and Vegeta battle powers. Of course it may not be meant to be taken too literally.

Outside of the manga, Gogeta as a Super Saiyan is clearly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and Toei website character profiles says Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is "several tens of times" (which is the equivalent of the way of saying "dozens of times" in English) stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4.

[shonenhikada]

Why are people comparing Namek saga goku to Tien. The dude pinned down, Semi perfect cell, dodge and attack from super buu (gotenks absorbed), and deflected an attack that was going to kill dende that even gohan could absorbed. That last showing puts him above goten and trunks for sure.

If humans were weaker than Namek saga goku they would have been killed by the cell jr. instantly when cell said play time is over children you can kill them now.

[dbgtFO]

Some of what dbzfan7 is saying, I agree with. I too think Fusion simply is completely superior to Super Saiyan like this:

Goku < SS 3 Goku < base Gogeta.

That's how I view it.

[DBZAOTA482]

I think Tiencha is strong enough to fight Full-Power Perfect Cell since Tenshinhan is stronger than Kuririn.

[Saiga]

Why are people comparing Namek saga goku to Tenshinhan. The dude pinned down, Semi perfect cell, dodge and attack from super buu (gotenks absorbed), and deflected an attack that was going to kill dende that even gohan could absorbed. That last showing puts him above goten and trunks for sure.

If humans were weaker than Namek saga goku they would have been killed by the cell jr. instantly when cell said play time is over children you can kill them now.

He didn't dodge any attack from Boo. He got taken out with one kick, and only deflected an attack meant to kill Dende. That's the equivalent of not having feats. As for holding down Semi-Perfect Cell, he did absolutely no damage with his attack. He could only hold Cell down due to catching him off guard and the rapid fire of the Kikoho. The same Tenshinhan who held down Cell admitted that a sick SS Goku was far beyond him.

...but Tenshinhan's strength isn't even relevant here. As Goku said, both partners have to have their power levels completely even to fuse successfully, so any fusion will simply be based on Yamcha's strength. Who gave up martial arts.

[shonenhikada]

Why are people comparing Namek saga goku to Tenshinhan. The dude pinned down, Semi perfect cell, dodge and attack from super buu (gotenks absorbed), and deflected an attack that was going to kill dende that even gohan could absorbed. That last showing puts him above goten and trunks for sure.

If humans were weaker than Namek saga goku they would have been killed by the cell jr. instantly when cell said play time is over children you can kill them now.

He didn't dodge any attack from Boo. He got taken out with one kick, and only deflected an attack meant to kill Dende. That's the equivalent of not having feats. As for holding down Semi-Perfect Cell, he did absolutely no damage with his attack. He could only hold Cell down due to catching him off guard and the rapid fire of the Kikoho. The same Tenshinhan who held down Cell admitted that a sick SS Goku was far beyond him.

...but Tenshinhan's strength isn't even relevant here. As Goku said, both partners have to have their power levels completely even to fuse successfully, so any fusion will simply be based on Yamcha's strength. Who gave up martial arts.

He did actually dodge one of Buu's ki attack. Gohan was in the vicinity right next to Dende yet failed to stop the attack aimed at Dende, while Tien was able to stop it. Even in the manga gohan is shown puting up a defensive stance against the attack showing how powerful it is. Also SSJ goku only began getting weaker/sick mid way in the fight. If goku was so weak, it would have notice by PICCOLO, who didn't say anything until goku got weaker in ki. Tien commented on goku being above him at the start of the fight.

Also Yamcha said he gave up fighting years ago. Doesn't necessarily mean he stopped training. It could also be interpreted by Yamcha stopped fighting competitively in tournament. I could say i gave up swimming years ago, doesn't mean i don't train or practice as a hobby.

[Saiga]

He did actually dodge one of Buu's ki attack. Gohan was in the vicinity right next to Dende yet failed to stop the attack aimed at Dende, while Tenshinhan was able to stop it. Also SSJ goku only began getting weaker/sick mid way in the fight. If goku was so weak, it would have notice by PICCOLO, who didn't say anything until goku got sick. Tenshinhan commmented on goku being above him at the start of the fight.

Also Yamcha said he gave up fighting years ago. Doesn't necesarily mean he stopped training,it could also be interpreted by Yamcha stopped fighting competitively in tournament. I could say i gave up swimming years ago, doesn't mean i don't train or practice as a hobby.

No, he didn't. Boo used a kiai to pin Gohan down while he shot a blast at Dende. Tenshinhan knocked that blast from a fair distance back, outside the range of Boo's kiai. After that he doesn't do anything but get kicked by Boo.

And it's funny that you mention Piccolo noticing Goku's weakness...

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

...because that's exactly what happened.

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, Tenshinhan only dodged a blast from Buu in the anime.
And it definitiely seemed like Piccolo was sceptical about Goku's power from the very beginning, he just didn't point it out immediately.