The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[shonenhikada]

No chance at all.

Is that Chi Chi drinking hot coco ?

[dprez]

Base Vegetto vs Full Power SSJ3 Goku

Does the latter stand a chance?

Ssj3 Gotenks would be a better match.

[DBZAOTA482]

No chance at all.

Is that Chi Chi drinking hot coco ?

No, it's Bulma.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Base Vegetto vs Full Power SSJ3 Goku

In the manga, I think Goku would win. But in the anime, where base Vegetto could kick Gohan Boo's ass, Goku loses.

[Saiga]

Fine want to play it that way. Just reviewed over the first scan, Piccolo once gotenks fusion times out shows the more dominant trait out of all the absorbers, so yes you are correct the boys show some influence, but since piccolo is dominant one he brings out more of the trait, indicating he's strongest of the three. The reason he appears more piccolo like in the second scan is because Piccolo is the last one to be removed from Buu thus piccolo shows more of his traits, without being suppress.

It seems you don't want to read anything and just be proven right for the sake of being right. Seeing that i just posted it and you immediately posted thereafter. Even though he knows of the SSJ transformation, he still thinks that the saiyans will have difficultly with Pui Pui who was impressed at 10x earth gravity, which shows he didn't think the SSJ transformation gave much of a boost. So in Kaioshin mind

SSJ Goku is probably 2x Base Goku or something along those line.

He also outright heard Vegeta claiming to be as strong if not stronger than Goku, yet still worries for Vegeta safety against Pui Pui, and considers Pui Pui a strong warrior. After Vegeta kills Pui Pui effortlessly he is amazed by the Saiyans strength.

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

But that doesn't even prove anything. The boys are likely in their base form, so they don't have as much influence. Earlier on at the lookout when Goten and Trunks power up to their full power Piccolo is taken aback by their power. I'm confident that the boys are stronger but it isn't concrete either way.

And yes, I read your link, but it's still nothing but speculation and over-analysing things. Now you're just jumping to conclusions with no evidence at all. He only ever told Vegeta to be careful, not that he'd need to be a Super Saiyan, and there's no indication that he thought Super Saiyan was such a small boost. He underestimated the Saiyans, but that doesn't make him weaker than them.

@Daimao Simply because non of the Gods thus far have been impressive to them. I think a combination of Godliness and power would get that react out of Piccolo, but not Godliness alone.

Base Vegetto vs Full Power SSJ3 Goku

Goku destroys Vegetto with ridiculous ease.

[dbzfan7]

The whole Kaioshin argument seems to depend if you believe in Base Saiyans>Piccolo or Piccolo>Base Saiyans. if you believe Piccolo is stronger then no way is Kaioshin greater then Piccolo since Vegeta effortlessly put down a guy he thought was a big threat. The other way around changes things. I think Piccolo is stronger though cause Kaioshin has done jack shit and the whole argument sounds similar to the Goku/Cell case which sounds legit.

Vegetto Base vs Goku SSJ3

Vegetto with ridiculous ease.

[Saiga]

That's only if you believe Base Saiyans>Kaioshin which isn't exactly a common belief, and contradicted by the fact that Gohan would need to turn into a Super Saiyan to beat Kibito.

Manga!Vegetto has absolutely nothing to put him in the SS3 tier.

[DBZAOTA482]

That's only if you believe Base Saiyans>Kaioshin which isn't exactly a common belief, and contradicted by the fact that Gohan would need to turn into a Super Saiyan to beat Kibito.

Give Kaioshin a math equation and his brain will fry.

[Saiga]

That's only if you believe Base Saiyans>Kaioshin which isn't exactly a common belief, and contradicted by the fact that Gohan would need to turn into a Super Saiyan to beat Kibito.

Give Kaioshin a math equation and his brain will fry.

What.

[dbzfan7]

That's only if you believe Base Saiyans>Kaioshin which isn't exactly a common belief, and contradicted by the fact that Gohan would need to turn into a Super Saiyan to beat Kibito.

Manga!Vegetto has absolutely nothing to put him in the SS3 tier.

The Daiz even states he surpasses ssj3. You will probably say in ssj because you are biased to the form, and you even deny Toriyama saying fusion is better.

[dprez]

Goku destroys Vegetto with ridiculous ease.

So, you must have the base saiyans as weaklings. Super Saiyan Gotenks, pre-RoSaT, was said to be able to destroy Majin Boo, a super saiyan 3 level fighter. Even a base Vegetto is gonna have some massive power, at least enough to not get destroyed with ridiculous ease. Think of his ridiculous Ssj(1) power. I can't see how his base form wouldn't be "wtf?!" strong as well, at least strong enough to not get one-shotted by a Ssj3 Goku.

.Manga!Vegetto has absolutely nothing to put him in the SS3 tier.

Really? Effortlessly handling Gohan Boo, who obviously has power waaaaaayyyyy beyond Ssj3 level, and you think his base form wouldn't stand chance against a Ssj3 Goku?

I understand base forms and multipliers and all that jazz, but this is freaking Vegetto were talking about.

[Kaboom]

the daiz even states he surpasses ssj3. and you will probably say in ssj cause you are biased to the form and even deny toriyama saying fusion is better.

Can we please not throw around comments like this?

... Or at the very least, improve them grammatically?

[Saiga]

The Daiz even states he surpasses ssj3. You will probably say in ssj because you are biased to the form, and you even deny Toriyama saying fusion is better.

I saw in Super Saiyan because that's the only form he's shown actually surpassing Super Saiyan 3 in. It's not bias, it's that having the base fusion Saiyans being so strong is crazy when SS1 is a 50x multiplier by itself. Toriyama's comment does not necessarily mean that fusion > Super Saiyan's multiplier, because everyone that uses fusion also uses Super Saiyan. Fusion + Super Saiyan is obviously stronger than fusion on it's own.

So, you must have the base saiyans as weaklings. Super Saiyan Gotenks, pre-RoSaT, was said to be able to destroy Majin Boo, a super saiyan 3 level fighter. Even a base Vegetto is gonna have some massive power, at least enough to not get destroyed with ridiculous ease. Think of his ridiculous Ssj(1) power. I can't see how his base form wouldn't be "wtf?!" strong as well, at least strong enough to not get one-shotted by a Ssj3 Goku.

Is being weaker than SS3 Goku really enough to class him as a weakling? I think not. And I personally no longer believe that SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT could have destroyed Majin Boo. I agree base Vegetto has massive power, but I don't see how it has to be SS3 tier. I don't think Super Saiyan Vegetto is 50x stronger than SS3 Goku, that's ridiculous scaling.

Really? Effortlessly handling Gohan Boo, who obviously has power waaaaaayyyyy beyond Ssj3 level, and you think his base form wouldn't stand chance against a Ssj3 Goku?

I understand base forms and multipliers and all that jazz, but this is freaking Vegetto were talking about.

Effortlessly handling him as a Super Saiyan. All we know of his base form is that he's 1/50th of the Vegetto that knocked Gohan Boo around. Gohan Boo is waaaaaay more powerful than a SS3, but I wouldn't even say he's 10x stronger. So yes, I think Vegetto's base form wouldn't stand a chance against SS3 Goku. I have him at low SS2 tier, since that's more than enough for his Super Saiyan form to dominate Boo so very easily.

[dbzfan7]

The Daiz even states he surpasses ssj3. You will probably say in ssj because you are biased to the form, and you even deny Toriyama saying fusion is better.

I saw in Super Saiyan because that's the only form he's shown actually surpassing Super Saiyan 3 in. It's not bias, it's that having the base fusion Saiyans being so strong is crazy when SS1 is a 50x multiplier by itself. Toriyama's comment does not necessarily mean that fusion > Super Saiyan's multiplier, because everyone that uses fusion also uses Super Saiyan. Fusion + Super Saiyan is obviously stronger than fusion on it's own.

It is bias when you think Toriyama is wrong when he flat out stated Fusion is better then SSJ. And I see you think Toriyama is wrong so is there even a point to continue with you. He freaking acknowledged it as greater when his friend suggested fusion was the only way to beat super saiyan. Then Toriyama said it was a great idea. The description of Fusion in the Daiz says fusion gives the new body powers and techniques beyond anything they had alone. So yes you are biased.

Here is both of the examples i posted before

Fusion
First Appearance: Chapter 469
Category: special
People: Trunks & Goten
Special Characteristics: The specialty technique of the people of Planet Metamor. Goku learned this art from some people from Planet Metamor who he met in the afterlife. It is an art where two humans can merge together only if their power and body size are very close, and through merging the two users give birth to a separate person who possesses power and techniques far surpassing what they had on their own. When merging, the two users must perform the Fusion pose symmetrically; this pose if very embarrassing for two adults to perform. In the story, Trunks and Goten perform this Fusion, but they fail two times because their pose is slightly wrong. When they fail at this technique, it greatly changes the body type of the resulting person, making them fat or thin, and rather than strengthening the two users, it makes them weaker. The name after merging becomes a combination of the two users’ respective names, and in Trunks and Goten’s case, they ended up named Gotenks. Furthermore, after merging, their clothes are those of the citizens of Planet Metamor. (Daizenshuu 2, p.118/Daizenshuu 4, p.116)
Anime
People: Son Goku & Vegeta
Special Characteristics: A Fusion between Goku and Vegeta came to fruition only in the movie “The Rebirth of Fusion!!~”. Vegeta hated the idea of performing Fusion with his rival, Goku. But cornered by the evil enemy Janenba, he ends up reluctantly performing Fusion with Goku. However, they fail once. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)

from Daiz 6

Interviewer: “Fusion” is another way to power up, right? How was that concept born?

Toriyama: That, I think, as a concept, came out of a discussion with Katsura-kun [Masakazu Katsura, a manga creator] that ‘There is nothing stronger than Super Saiya-jin.’ We usually just fool around with each other, and he jokingly said at the time, ‘In that case, maybe the only remaining way to become stronger is to fuse together.’ I replied, ‘Hey, that’s a great idea! You do say good things sometimes. This is the first time you’ve helped me.’ (laughter) That’s how that idea was born

[Saiga]

It is bias when you think Toriyama is wrong when he flat out stated Fusion is better then SSJ. And I see you think Toriyama is wrong so is there even a point to continue with you. He freaking acknowledged it as greater when his friend suggested fusion was the only way to beat super saiyan. Then Toriyama said it was a great idea. The description of Fusion in the Daiz says fusion gives the new body powers and techniques beyond anything they could accomplish alone. So yes you are biased.

That is NOT what I am doing. Did I say Toriyama was wrong? No. I'm saying that he never said Fusion > Super Saiyan's multiplier.

That description only means that a fused being is better than the individual. That doesn't mean a base fused being is better than a Super Saiyan individual. Why compare them on different levels? So no, I am not biased. I would really appreciate it if you stopped claiming that I am.

[dprez]

He's not biased. He just goes by the x50 multiplier.

[Kaboom]

That's enough with the accusations of "bias."

The quote from Toriyama is not limited to the interpretation you're going by. You're over-complicating it. Obviously two people joined together going Super Saiyan are going to be stronger than just one of them going Super Saiyan on his own. That's all it has to mean.

[dbzfan7]

It is bias when you think Toriyama is wrong when he flat out stated Fusion is better then SSJ. And I see you think Toriyama is wrong so is there even a point to continue with you. He freaking acknowledged it as greater when his friend suggested fusion was the only way to beat super saiyan. Then Toriyama said it was a great idea. The description of Fusion in the Daiz says fusion gives the new body powers and techniques beyond anything they could accomplish alone. So yes you are biased.

That is NOT what I am doing. Did I say Toriyama was wrong? No. I'm saying that he never said Fusion > Super Saiyan's multiplier.

That description only means that a fused being is better than the individual. That doesn't mean a base fused being is better than a Super Saiyan individual. Why compare them on different levels? So no, I am not biased. I would really appreciate it if you stopped claiming that I am.

Masakazu Katsura said the only way to become stronger then is to fuse when "nothing is stronger then an ssj" is in context. Toriyama agreed that fusion is the only way to go beyond that and said Masakazu Katsura had a good idea. I don't see how you interpret it as he means base only. The Daiz even says the fused body has power and skill beyond what they had alone. Also sorry for the biased bit, I went to far. Also On p.63 in Daizenshuu 7 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition.

6. Fusion [#BO2#FUS]
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Also if Fusion was less than 50x, I doubt Goku would say they were anything great since i douhgt 2 completely weak people would get anywhere noticeable to him. That would be like saying Bulma and her Mom fusing (when they are completely weak) would be anything great.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Pretty much why I say this about fusion. It is just ridiculous like Goku says here.

He's not biased. He just goes by the x50 multiplier.

Again i'm sorry for the biased comment. Anyway i go by the 50x as well. its just fusion is that ridiculous. Goku even says it several times that fusion is just that powerful.

I also would like to add....

Fat Boo vs SSJ3 Goku

I think either Goku was lying about being able to beat Fat Boo, or the idea was retconed by Toriyama. Fat Boo never fought at full power just like Goku, and Goku first stated he seemed impossible for him. Also i'm not sure if Goku took damage during the fight, but Fat Boo took no damage. Fat Boo was not even angry or tired. He was enjoying himself.

Kid Boo vs SSJ3 Goku(max power right away) .

For the Kid Boo fight I still think Goku loses since he drains faster while Kid Boo is always fresh. Depending on when Toriyama changed his mind about Gohan being the hero really seems to decide this. I think he retconed what Goku said if Toriyama decided to make Goku the hero after his encounter with Fat Boo. I also think Kid Boo would win cause they always underestimated him. They thought the Genki-Dama would work but it didn't. Only when Goku got his strength back did it work.

So I speculate Fat Boo>SSJ3 Goku pre-retcon(if there was one if not opposite result) and Kid Boo>SSJ3 Goku(doesn't matter what he did)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Maybe Fusion is stronger than Super Saiyan, but it doesn't nessesarily include Super Saiyan 2 & 3. I do believe that Fusion is greater than Super Saiyan, and with Potara even greater than Fusion (if the couple that will merge are similar & rivals, like Goku & Vegeta, but unlike Kaioshin & Kibito). (SS4) Gogeta was said to be several dozens stronger than (SS4) Goku & (SS4) Vegeta, so it could be 30 times, it could also be 70 times, or even more.

Fat Boo vs SSJ3 Goku

Kid Boo vs SSJ3 Goku(max power right away)

Goku wins both fights.

[CaptainKatsura]

Base Vegetto would have be to be 400x stronger than base Goku for them to be tied in power while the latter is SSJ3.