Kid Buu

[Hitiro]

Please delete this topic I have now come to the conclusion that Super Buu is superior therefore this topic is no longer needed. Sorry for the unpoliteness presented here it just got a little out of hand.

Probably better it stays up for future reference just in case someone else comes along and brings up the argument. That way all we have to do is point them to the thread and tell them to read through it without having to bother with another 7 paged topic on why Super Buu > Kid Buu.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Please delete this topic I have now come to the conclusion that Super Buu is superior therefore this topic is no longer needed. Sorry for the unpoliteness presented here it just got a little out of hand.

Probably better it stays up for future reference just in case someone else comes along and brings up the argument. That way all we have to do is point them to the thread and tell them to read through it without having to bother with another 7 paged topic on why Super Buu > Kid Buu.

Hmm I suppose that would be for the best. We dont need another misunderstanding.

[Mystic Gohan]

Energy aint power bro. Fat Buu is not simply 2x SSjin 2 Teen Gohan.

It is. If power isnt Ki what is it? Secondly yes SSJ2 Gohan's Ki is about half of Buu's

Not possible at all. Piccolo couldn't tell the difference between Fat Buu and SSjin 3 Goku. The gap between them ain't too big.

SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Buu >>> Fat Buu @Majin Vegeta >> Majin Vegeta >= Fat Buu@Gohan >>> SSjin 2 Teen Gohan is stated. Considering SSjin 2 Goku is already stronger than SSjin 2 Teen Gohan, slap a 4x multiplier on it and it's clear that Fat Buu is far more than 2x stronger than SSjin 2 Teen Gohan.

[hleV]

Although you've changed your mind, I'll go ahead and call this "purity" thing an overcomplicated fan-made nonsense.

• Buff Boo absorbs Dai Kaioshin and loses power - stated.
• Dabra says that they can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy for Boo's revival. We don't know why - let's leave it at that.
• Goku says that they can't beat Evil Boo without fusion - never contradicted.
• Evil Boo transforms into Buff Boo and his power increases - stated.
• Buff Boo reverts to Pure Boo, and Goku states that with full SSJ3 power he can exterminate him - never contradicted.
• Mr. Boo from inside prevents Pure Boo from killing Mr. Satan by fucking with his mind and Pure Boo spits him out - no changes in Pure Boo's power implied.

See how easy it is? If you dismiss the vague implications, it's pretty clear what the series shows us:

• Evil Boo, who can't be defeated without fusion (since Gohan is unconscious) becomes Buff Boo, who is even stronger than that and then reverts to Pure Boo who SSJ3 Goku is on par with.

This follows DB logic (which is "no overcomplicated things unless stated/implied") pretty well, doesn't it? The whole idea is that there are direct implications regarding Evil Boo's superiority over Pure Boo, but not vice versa.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Energy aint power bro. Fat Buu is not simply 2x SSjin 2 Teen Gohan.

It is. If power isnt Ki what is it? Secondly yes SSJ2 Gohan's Ki is about half of Buu's

Not possible at all. Piccolo couldn't tell the difference between Fat Buu and SSjin 3 Goku. The gap between them ain't too big.

SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Buu >>> Fat Buu @Majin Vegeta >> Majin Vegeta >= Fat Buu@Gohan >>> SSjin 2 Teen Gohan is stated. Considering SSjin 2 Goku is already stronger than SSjin 2 Teen Gohan, slap a 4x multiplier on it and it's clear that Fat Buu is far more than 2x stronger than SSjin 2 Teen Gohan.

A Goku was holding back and B I dont think SSJ2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Buu I think at full power and enraged he is slightly above half as strong as the Fat Majin Buu.

[Mystic Gohan]

A Goku was holding back and B I dont think SSJ2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Buu I think at full power and enraged he is slightly above half as strong as the Fat Majin Buu.

Prove that Goku can hold back in a form he is barely used to? Not likely imo that even Enraged SSjin 2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Fat Buu considering Kid Gohan is weaker than Majin Vegeta who is slightly stronger than Fat Buu@Gohan,

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ok I got it new theory in favor of Super Buu.
Dabura statement implies that Kaioshin energy hinders Buu rebirth. Now I'm gonna stand by that but time for a counter. I think Buu's evil can counteract Kaioshin influence problem is Buu was not born yet so using Kaioshin influence would have hindered his rebirth. That said when Kid Buu absorbed South Kai he used his "evil" to negate any negative effect that South Kaioshin would have had on him giving him a substantial power boost. However Daikaio's innocents and Purity along with Buu's evil influence having been hindered by South Kaioshin lead to a massive decrease. This would also explain why the Potara were negated. Buu's "Evil" negated the Potara. So there you have it. Thats how it works .

[TheMightyOzaru]

A Goku was holding back and B I dont think SSJ2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Buu I think at full power and enraged he is slightly above half as strong as the Fat Majin Buu.

Prove that Goku can hold back in a form he is barely used to? Not likely imo that even Enraged SSjin 2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Fat Buu considering Kid Gohan is weaker than Majin Vegeta who is slightly stronger than Fat Buu@Gohan,

Goku's statement before he fought Kid Buu was he could have definitely beaten Fat Buu. He held back to give the kids something to do. Hey man dont underestimate Kid Gohan with a rage boost and SSJ2 he is very powerful.

[hleV]

Prove that Goku can hold back in a form he is barely used to?

While SSJ3 Goku doesn't necessarily have the ability to suppress his battle power, he doesn't have to hit as hard as he can neither. I know it's not what you meant, just wanted to correct you.

I'm not exactly sure what Piccolo had implied about Fat Boo's power in comparison to SSJ3 Goku's, but I know that he did ask if Goku could've defeated Boo. If that's all there is to it, then we should remember the fact that Piccolo has witnessed Boo's regenerating abilities and may have (as smart as he is) accounted for that when comparing him to Goku. So while Fat Boo doesn't necessarily have to be as strong as SSJ3 Goku (perhaps he can even be weaker by a fair amount), he does have the regeneration which makes him nearly immortal, and have much better chances against the stronger Goku thanks to that.

And TheMightyOzaru, honestly, that "purity" thing really seems out of order. It's DB, and Boo isn't some sort of an "evil demon" (just stupid evil magical being) who should be affected by his absorbees' "pure souls" or whatever. Read my previous post, it explains in a much simpler, DB-kind of way.

[Mystic Gohan]

A Goku was holding back and B I dont think SSJ2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Buu I think at full power and enraged he is slightly above half as strong as the Fat Majin Buu.

Prove that Goku can hold back in a form he is barely used to? Not likely imo that even Enraged SSjin 2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Fat Buu considering Kid Gohan is weaker than Majin Vegeta who is slightly stronger than Fat Buu@Gohan,

Goku's statement before he fought Kid Buu was he could have definitely beaten Fat Buu. He held back to give the kids something to do. Hey man dont underestimate Kid Gohan with a rage boost and SSJ2 he is very powerful.

No Goku says: Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

He says he could have beaten him. Goku also says he could have beaten Kid Buu if he was at 100%, but those two fight on par. That quote is kind of vague, so the next option if Piccolo. As I pointed out earlier, he is unsure if Goku can beat Fat Buu, so he does realize Goku is superior, but it's slim in his mind. Piccolo cannot tell the difference between Majin Vegeta and SSjin 2 Kid Gohan, so Goku's gap over Fat Buu is likely bigger than Vegeta's over Gohan. Still, that isn't much, because Vegeta AND Goku still hold SSjin 2 Kid Gohan in high regard as if they haven't surpassed him by much.

That being said, I will address your point about a rage boosted SSjin 2 Kid Gohan. I am not a believer that Gohan gets extra rage bursts. His SSjin is his rage manifested in a form that he can control (atleast in the Cell Saga), so I find it unlikely that he can get any more rage boosts if he is in his SSjin 2 form.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Prove that Goku can hold back in a form he is barely used to? Not likely imo that even Enraged SSjin 2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Fat Buu considering Kid Gohan is weaker than Majin Vegeta who is slightly stronger than Fat Buu@Gohan,

Goku's statement before he fought Kid Buu was he could have definitely beaten Fat Buu. He held back to give the kids something to do. Hey man dont underestimate Kid Gohan with a rage boost and SSJ2 he is very powerful.

No Goku says: Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

He says he could have beaten him. Goku also says he could have beaten Kid Buu if he was at 100%, but those two fight on par. That quote is kind of vague, so the next option if Piccolo. As I pointed out earlier, he is unsure if Goku can beat Fat Buu, so he does realize Goku is superior, but it's slim in his mind. Piccolo cannot tell the difference between Majin Vegeta and SSjin 2 Kid Gohan, so Goku's gap over Fat Buu is likely bigger than Vegeta's over Gohan. Still, that isn't much, because Vegeta AND Goku still hold SSjin 2 Kid Gohan in high regard as if they haven't surpassed him by much.

That being said, I will address your point about a rage boosted SSjin 2 Kid Gohan. I am not a believer that Gohan gets extra rage bursts. His SSjin is his rage manifested in a form that he can control (atleast in the Cell Saga), so I find it unlikely that he can get any more rage boosts if he is in his SSjin 2 form.

Goku clearly wasnt trying when he fought the Fat Buu its not vague at all. Piccolo clearly doesnt know what he is talking about since Vegeta clearly stated that Goku had surpassed his son from the Cell Games. Piccolo doesnt know anything if he thinks Vegeta and Goku are on par with that Gohan. Why cant he get a rage boost in SSJ2? I think they work in conjunction with each other. That would explain why he barely managed a Super Perfect Cell.

[hleV]

It appears that my points are completely ignored. Fine, it's time to sleep anyway.

[Mystic Gohan]

Prove that Goku can hold back in a form he is barely used to? Not likely imo that even Enraged SSjin 2 Kid Gohan is half as strong as Fat Buu considering Kid Gohan is weaker than Majin Vegeta who is slightly stronger than Fat Buu@Gohan,

Goku's statement before he fought Kid Buu was he could have definitely beaten Fat Buu. He held back to give the kids something to do. Hey man dont underestimate Kid Gohan with a rage boost and SSJ2 he is very powerful.

No Goku says: Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

He says he could have beaten him. Goku also says he could have beaten Kid Buu if he was at 100%, but those two fight on par. That quote is kind of vague, so the next option if Piccolo. As I pointed out earlier, he is unsure if Goku can beat Fat Buu, so he does realize Goku is superior, but it's slim in his mind. Piccolo cannot tell the difference between Majin Vegeta and SSjin 2 Kid Gohan, so Goku's gap over Fat Buu is likely bigger than Vegeta's over Gohan. Still, that isn't much, because Vegeta AND Goku still hold SSjin 2 Kid Gohan in high regard as if they haven't surpassed him by much.

That being said, I will address your point about a rage boosted SSjin 2 Kid Gohan. I am not a believer that Gohan gets extra rage bursts. His SSjin is his rage manifested in a form that he can control (atleast in the Cell Saga), so I find it unlikely that he can get any more rage boosts if he is in his SSjin 2 form.

Goku clearly wasnt trying when he fought the Fat Buu its not vague at all. Piccolo clearly doesnt know what he is talking about since Vegeta clearly stated that Goku had surpassed his son from the Cell Games. Piccolo doesnt know anything if he thinks Vegeta and Goku are on par with that Gohan. Why cant he get a rage boost in SSJ2? I think they work in conjunction with each other. That would explain why he barely managed a Super Perfect Cell.

Read the fight between SSjin 3 Goku and Fat Buu again. Goku puts in noticeable effort into his blows. Vegeta's statement goes fine with Piccolo's. Goku and Vegeta are certainly > Gohan, but Vegeta as I said before still considers Cell Games Gohan very strong. The gap between Goku/Vegeta and Gohan certainly is not a multi-fold gap. As I said above, I find it unlikely for Gohan to get a double rage boost.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku clearly wasnt trying when he fought the Fat Buu its not vague at all. Piccolo clearly doesnt know what he is talking about since Vegeta clearly stated that Goku had surpassed his son from the Cell Games. Piccolo doesnt know anything if he thinks Vegeta and Goku are on par with that Gohan. Why cant he get a rage boost in SSJ2? I think they work in conjunction with each other. That would explain why he barely managed a Super Perfect Cell.Read the fight between SSjin 3 Goku and Fat Buu again. Goku puts in noticeable effort into his blows. Vegeta's statement goes fine with Piccolo's. Goku and Vegeta are certainly > Gohan, but Vegeta as I said before still considers Cell Games Gohan very strong. The gap between Goku/Vegeta and Gohan certainly is not a multi-fold gap. As I said above, I find it unlikely for Gohan to get a double rage boost.

I have read it and I see nothing considerable. If he was trying like you imply he would have killed Fat Buu like he said he could have. I see a rather blank expression most of the time implying "you arent worth my time". You can find it unlikely but I sure dont.

[Mystic Gohan]

Well I see quite a few panels where Goku has a strained look on his face not to mention all the blows that Fat Buu lands on him, but to each his own on this one. Either way, it's still unlikely that Fat buu is any less than 70% of SSjin 3 Goku. That being said, it is most unlikely that energy ~ power.

[smiley]

Now I am also aware that after being revived you arent 100% as stated in the

Guide Books and even by Goku himself.

Can someone show me where the guidebooks say that?

Also, here is a paraphrase of Goku's quote:

"You've just been restored to life! Your ki still ain't full, is it?"

Is the word "just" here an adverb of time meaning that Vegeta was just recently revived to life or does it mean "only", as in, he was only restored to life and nothing else changed, like his quantity of ki.

[Fox666]

I assume it's the first, since it's the more natural interpretation, and Herms would take care with that.

[mistershin]

I too believe that Kid Buu could be stronger than Super Buu.

It is outright stated:
Buff Buu > Super Buu

However it is never outright stated that the Ki or Power drops from Buff Buu to Kid Buu.
(Even if it did, it would likely take it back to Super Buu power level anyway)

Anyway the way I see it, Kid Buu cannot possibly be weaker than Super Buu, at lowest they would be equals.


Goku stated at 100% he can beat Kid Buu. This statement is Goku underestimating Kid Buu as he tried and failed to win as a SSJ3.


Genki Dama:
Takes energy from people and celestial bodies.
Kaioshin Realm has several Stars, those would be included into the Genki Dama's power.
Along with Z-fighters, Nameks, Otherworld etc contributing power.


I guess what I'm trying to say is this:

Kid Buu at MAXIMUM = Buff Buu
Kid Buu at MINIMUM = Super Buu

[hleV]

It is outright stated:
Buff Buu > Super Buu

However it is never outright stated that the Ki or Power drops from Buff Buu to Kid Buu.

Goku had stated that he couldn't beat Evil Boo. Then he's fine with fighting Pure Boo and appears to be equal to him. He never underestimated Pure Boo, he just didn't know of the SSJ3 drawbacks.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Now I am also aware that after being revived you arent 100% as stated in the

Guide Books and even by Goku himself.

Can someone show me where the guidebooks say that?

Also, here is a paraphrase of Goku's quote:

"You've just been restored to life! Your ki still ain't full, is it?"

Is the word "just" here an adverb of time meaning that Vegeta was just recently revived to life or does it mean "only", as in, he was only restored to life and nothing else changed, like his quantity of ki.

Its here:
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... attle#link
Its battle 183