Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Either way, a 4000x boost from Base to Super Saiyan 4 is a ludicrous amount of power. Even if the specific numbers are debatable, there's no way in hell that calculation is unacceptably low.

It can be if you think the Oozaru and Super Saiyan multipliers are stacked together for the Golden/Super Oozaru form, then, even if you don't think SS4's power is increased beyond the golden ape's, there is a possibility that it should be a lot higher. Bebi Vegeta beat SS3 Goku without much trouble, but later needed to go Super Oozaru to be on par with his new SS4 transformation. That would be a x500 increase in Bebi's strength after he goes ape, and Goku's able to keep up with it for the most part. So, SS4 could be as absurd a multiplier as x200,000 from base.

[Bussani]

That would be a x500 increase in Bebi's strength after he goes ape

Maybe, maybe not. Some might say that Baby Vegeta's forms sort of correspond to Super Saiyan forms already, with the one before Golden Oozaru being sort of like his version of Super Saiyan 3. In which case, Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta could only be ten times stronger than that, putting him around Goku's level once again.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Maybe, maybe not. Some might say that Baby Vegeta's forms sort of correspond to Super Saiyan forms already, with the one before Golden Oozaru being sort of like his version of Super Saiyan 3. In which case, Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta could only be ten times stronger than that, putting him around Goku's level once

I know, that's pretty much my the stance I take on the matter. But we don't know how the calculations are being handled for the Death Battle, so I was using the extreme as an example.

[TonyTheTiger]

What's funny is that the multiplier doesn't really matter much. For argument, let's say at base Goku is 10. That means at Super Saiyan 4 he's 40,000 if a 4000x multiplier or 2,000,000 if a 200,000x multiplier. Well, none of that matters unless we determine what Goku is capable of at 10. How much can he lift? How much damage can he do? How much force can he withstand? Super Saiyan 4 could be a 10,000,000x multiplier and we still wouldn't be able to tell how powerful he is without some frame of reference. And also do all his powers scale proportionally? Like, assuming a 4000x multiplier, does that mean Goku can lift 4000x as much as a Super Saiyan 4 than he can at base? Can he move 4000x as fast? Does he become 4000x more durable?

Come to think of it, Goku's fight with the Four-Star Dragon might give some insight into his durability when put up against Superman's heat vision. Was the Four-Star Dragon said to be as hot as the sun? I don't quite remember.

Like the way Goku was freezing during DBZ Movie 2 or in hell during GT. At Super Saiyan 4 would he then be able to withstand temperatures 4000x colder than what he faced in those situations? Of course absolute zero isn't anywhere close to 4000x colder than freezing temperatures so it would mean Goku is completely immune to cold were the case.

[dario03]

IIRC Nova Shenron said he was hotter than the sun (but was it the surface or the core?). However Superman's heat vision is hotter than the core of the sun and hes used it to cut through tanks and super strong walls/robots/aliens/etc like butter. And in the comics when they tried to measure it they couldn't (actually I think that was in this thread earlier). Which is odd because in the real world they've measured temperatures made on Earth up to 7.2 trillion degrees Fahrenheit (4 trillion degrees Celsius).

[Bussani]

I forget whether that dragon said he could produce temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun or temperatures up to 6000 degrees celsius, but it's the same thing either way. That was enough to burn regular Goku, but not Super Saiyan 4 Goku. Of course, Superman's heat vision is way, way beyond that. Heck, even a modern day plasma torch is far hotter than that.

[Herms]

... Where did the Super Saiyan 4 multiplier came from? It's SS3 x10?

As I recall, the reasoning went that Baby beat Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Goku became a Super Saiyan 4 and totally outclassed Baby, and then Baby became a Golden Oozaru and was equal to Super Saiyan 4 Goku. So if Oozaru increases your battle power by 10, there should at least be a 10-fold difference between SSj3 and 4 Goku. Presumably more, but that'd be the minimum, and there wasn't anything to pin a more specific number on. For the same "keep it to a minimum of what can be proved" principle, we assumed Super Baby 2 is already using Vegeta's Super Saiyan power.

And when did he train under Ru Kaioshin?

It's "Rou" (老), not "Ru". That's the same "Rou" in Muten Roushi and Saichourou.

[VegettoEX]

Did we even give them a hard number for a Super Saiyan 4 multiplier? Looking through (at least the initial) documentation, I don't see anything. The DBGT Perfect File descriptions don't provide one. I know we gave them for Super Saiyan 1-3 and Oozaru, so I'm assuming they did the same basic/safe math I'm seeing here in this thread.

[Bussani]

Did we even give them a hard number for a Super Saiyan 4 multiplier? Looking through (at least the initial) documentation, I don't see anything. The DBGT Perfect File descriptions don't provide one. I know we gave them for Super Saiyan 1-3 and Oozaru, so I'm assuming they did the same basic/safe math I'm seeing here in this thread.

I think we sort of suggested the math and they ran with it. Basically, what Herms said.

[Herms]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we didn't specifically say it was 4,000 times as strong as Goku's regular form or anything. There was just the "at least 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3" thing.

[SaiyanZ]

Here is my take on this: Dragon Ball has been handled and written by 1 author (3 technically if you include Ooisi and Toyotaro) ever since 1984. Superman has been around since 1932 and been handled by Grant Morrison, Dwayne McDuffie, Scott Snyder etc. The fact that Supes has been written and handled by tons of authors means he's going to be put in tons of different situations.

Here's the thing: In Trinity from 2008, Superman fights this guy named Konvikt; the fight escalates so much that Superman and Konvikt are throwing and tanking PLANET-BUSTING punches. This feat alone, as so many others, should put them above virtually any feat shown in the Buu saga. Fast forward to 2009, where Justice League #30 is released; Shadow Thief creates the equivalent of our Moon. Superman flies into this Moon, destroying it, and gets KNOCKED OUT. Do you see the problem here? It's the same Superman, without any impediments, who was tanking planet-busting attacks a year earlier, yet now he gets knocked from a MOON-busting attack? Going by this logic, Superman should be able to best a SSJ3 Goku, yet someone like Master Roshi or Piccolo from the Saiyan saga could dust him the next moment. Does anyone see the pile of sh*t people tend to step into here? This debate will never reach a conclusive end.

[VegettoEX]

Does anyone see the pile of sh*t people tend to step into here? This debate will never reach a conclusive end.

Well of course. As much as ScrewAttack is promoting it as the "CONCLUSIVE!!!" sort of "answer" to this theoretical fight, I assure you that they and everyone else involved knows that there is absolutely no way to "conclusively" answer the question.

It's all in good fun just to toss a bunch of research and comparisons into the mix and see what comes out on the other side. Fun. Fun fun fun. If it's being taken by anyone so seriously that they legitimately feel that it's going to be "answered once and for all" and that no further analysis or discussions can be had... well... I don't know how to counter that...?

[SaiyanZ]

Does anyone see the pile of sh*t people tend to step into here? This debate will never reach a conclusive end.

Well of course. As much as ScrewAttack is promoting it as the "CONCLUSIVE!!!" sort of "answer" to this theoretical fight, I assure you that they and everyone else involved knows that there is absolutely no way to "conclusively" answer the question.

It's all in good fun just to toss a bunch of research and comparisons into the mix and see what comes out on the other side. Fun. Fun fun fun. If it's being taken by anyone so seriously that they legitimately feel that it's going to be "answered once and for all" and that no further analysis or discussions can be had... well... I don't know how to counter that...?

And that's the problem. You should see the people on YouTube and GameFAQS who take this wayyyyyy too seriously.

[VegettoEX]

They're part of the audience, sure, but don't let that affect you. There are plenty of folks here who are more than ready to have a great time seeing what ScrewAttack comes up with. Even if they disagree with it and present arguments and viewpoints and analysis tidbits to the contrary, we're all here to have fun.

You can drive yourself insane looking for and reading nothing but pure vitriol on the Internet regarding any project or product whatsoever. Take your coat off, stay here a while, and have a good time!

[SaiyanZ]

I will. Glad to see there ARE people who wanna see this for fun

[dbzfan7]

What ever side wins, there will be a swarm of angry fans. Shields up People.

[TheMightyOzaru]

What ever side wins, there will be a swarm of angry fans. Shields up People.

So true . I want Goku to win but if Supes wins I'm not gonna rage.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Does it matter what the real multiplier is? This is death battle they think SSJ forms are just a 500% increase on top of each other because they are very uninformed. BTW thats a 625x multiplier for SSJ4 >_>. Seriously go through the death battles and look up some legitimate info on the character they pit against each other, they get a lot of stuff wrong. I'm actually a little baffled they choose to make up there own shit for the sake of having info for the fights =/. I wont be surprised if they get a lot of stuff on this one wrong too.

[dbzfan7]

Does it matter what the real multiplier is? This is death battle they think SSJ forms are just a 500% increase on top of each other because they are very uninformed. BTW thats a 625x multiplier for SSJ4 >_>. Seriously go through the death battles and look up some legitimate info on the character they pit against each other, they get a lot of stuff wrong. I'm actually a little baffled they choose to make up there own shit for the sake of having info for the fights =/. I wont be surprised if they get a lot of stuff on this one wrong too.

They fixed SSJ back to 50x. Kanzenshuu gave the death battle crew loads of info. The whole fight really depends on what Superman facts they go with. Pre Crisis, Cosmic Armor, Prime, 1,000,000, and sword of Superman are way out of Goku's league. Post-Crisis is the most popular Superman and most mainstream. He is right around Goku. I say with a fight Goku could take it. Though Post-Crisis also has some inconsistency problems. That's why this death battle isn't exactly easy since Superman isn't straight forwardly written like Goku.

[Bussani]

Here is my take on this: Dragon Ball has been handled and written by 1 author (3 technically if you include Ooisi and Toyotaro) ever since 1984. Superman has been around since 1932 and been handled by Grant Morrison, Dwayne McDuffie, Scott Snyder etc. The fact that Supes has been written and handled by tons of authors means he's going to be put in tons of different situations.

Here's the thing: In Trinity from 2008, Superman fights this guy named Konvikt; the fight escalates so much that Superman and Konvikt are throwing and tanking PLANET-BUSTING punches. This feat alone, as so many others, should put them above virtually any feat shown in the Buu saga. Fast forward to 2009, where Justice League #30 is released; Shadow Thief creates the equivalent of our Moon. Superman flies into this Moon, destroying it, and gets KNOCKED OUT. Do you see the problem here?

To be fair, that attack that destroyed the moon could technically have been much greater than the planet-busting punches. Star-busting punches* could also destroy a moon, after all.

This is pretty unrelated, but I recently saw a page from what I think is a rather recent issue of Superman. I...just think it's funny?

*How does one punch a star?