Kid Buu

[smiley]

Which is countered by the fact that he told Vegeta that the two of them would lose even if they left his body. Most anything he says while confronting Buu can be viewed as trying to bluff his way out of a direct confrontation with him.

All I was responding to was the idea Goku never implied he could have beaten Evil Buu, which is incorrect. As I've said, you can still argue that he was bluffing.

Either way, both sides of the fence, evil Buu and pure Buu supporters, have to say that Goku was lying at some points.

[SaiyanZ]

Regardless of whether you feel Goku is stronger or weaker than Super Buu, I think his statement with Piccolo "It takes too much energy to sustain the form in the mortal plane" or something like that should be taken into consideration.

[smiley]

So, I'd like to hear if anyone has an alternate way to interpret this:

And how about Goku's threat that he'll blow a hole in Buu's body? Buu could simply regenerate like he always does. I think he means "We'll blow a hole in your body and get out, thus regaining our size and becoming capable of defeating you".

"We'll blow a hole in your body" makes no sense as a threat to a guy who can regenerate from scratch. I have difficulty interpreting this any other way than Goku claiming, be it a bluff or not, that he can defeat Super Buu.

Also, if this interpretation is correct, Goku's inability to defeat Super Buu is specifically linked to his present situation. This lends credibility to the notion that Goku was referring to his and Vegeta's miniature sizes when assessing their odds of beating Buu in the previous chapter.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He probably thought it'd do more damage to Boo from the inside.

I also don't see the point in Goku mentioning Super Boo as the "stronger" one if this was totally based on size.

[smiley]

He probably thought it'd do more damage to Boo from the inside.

He wanted to open a hole. This is what he says. Even if it was a bigger hole than one he could make if he fired from the outside, it's still just a hole that Buu can easily repair.

He is also just a Super Saiyan. At mere Super Saiyan level, Goku can't possibly think he can do any real damage to Buu.

I'm also not sure how being inside would matter. He still has to blow through the same amount of layers of Buu's body if he did it from the outside.

I also don't see the point in Goku mentioning Super Boo as the "stronger" one if this was totally based on size.

"Strength" doesn't just refer to ki/energy/whatever. For example, Goku says Dabura is a lot stronger than he had thought apparently on the basis of his magic.

And it's all possible that their ki capacity was limited by virtue of their miniature sizes. I'm quite skeptical about this, though.

[Fox666]

I'm also not sure how being inside would matter. He still has to blow through the same amount of layers of Buu's body if he did it from the outside.

I am quite sure that the Kamikage Ghost that got inside of his mouth did more damage than the others. So that's probably what Goku's plan was, attacking him from inside would make more damage.

This lends credibility to the notion that Goku was referring to his and Vegeta's miniature sizes when assessing their odds of beating Buu in the previous chapter.

But Goku even said that if they "go outside like this" they are no match for Boo. He even repeat himself later and says that they could "just go outside and merge" if they still had the Potara. So no matter what, Goku wasn't refering to their miniature size.

[smiley]

I am quite sure that the Kamikage Ghost that got inside of his mouth did more damage than the others. So that's probably what Goku's plan was, attacking him from inside would make more damage.

It did more damage because it was omnidirectional, just like Vegeta's suicide attack. Goku was just attempting a regular ki blast.

But Goku even said that if they "go outside like this" they are no match for Boo. He even repeat himself later and says that they could "just go outside and merge" if they still had the Potara. So no matter what, Goku wasn't refering to their miniature size.

The "like this" quote can plausibly refer to either their miniature sizes or their non-fused states. As for the fact they thought they would do better if they had Potara; maybe that's true, after all, Vegetto was stronger than Buu even in his candy form. So maybe miniature Vegetto could defeat Buu. Or maybe they just thought they would be fast enough to get away.

[Bussani]

The thing about them being small wasn't brought up until well after Goku had said they were no match for Buu, and he didn't seem to realize it was a problem for them until he actually tried to blast a hole in Buu. I guess it's possible, but it's not the impression I get when I read those chapters.

[smiley]

The mere fact that they were small should evidence enough that they are not as strong as they would be at their normal sizes (by 'not as strong', I don't mean in terms of ki quantity). It's practically an axiom that a lesser size means a far inferior physical power, and it should also probably be obvious that it implies that the scope of their attacks is limited [1]. It may merely be the case that they were not aware of the extent of their handicap until Goku fired his ki blast.

[1] If you think it works differently in Dragonball, consider the giant Piccolo at the 23rd TB. He thought he could win against someone stronger than himself by becoming bigger. And everyone else seemed to believe that, as well. So although Goku was stronger than even giant Piccolo, we can certainly conclude that giant Piccolo was stronger than regular Piccolo.

[Bussani]

Fair enough. But if they were only talking about size the whole time, why was Goku all, "We did it! Now we can manage something!" when Buu reverted to his pure form? If they could have managed something against Super Buu at their full size, that's a weird thing to say.

[Darkprince410]

[1] If you think it works differently in Dragonball, consider the giant Piccolo at the 23rd TB. He thought he could win against someone stronger than himself by becoming bigger. And everyone else seemed to believe that, as well. So although Goku was stronger than even giant Piccolo, we can certainly conclude that giant Piccolo was stronger than regular Piccolo.

No, we can't conclude that, because from what we see, there was physically no increase to his power at all. The two were evenly matched for much of their fight, with only the occasional one-sided set of attacks here and there. All that Piccolo was banking on when he grew larger was that he'd be physically too large for Goku to fend off. No one commented at any point that he was stronger than before, just that he was far larger, but his speed didn't decrease at all.

[smiley]

Fair enough. But if they were only talking about size the whole time, why was Goku all, "We did it! Now we can manage something!" when Buu reverted to his pure form? If they could have managed something against Super Buu at their full size, that's a weird thing to say.

I will now try to offer an alternate interpretation of that. However, I first have to say, I'm not confident that it's the correct one, nor do I really have an opinion on any of these issues yet. By posting here, I'm merely exploring various viewpoints to see which one suits me the best.

It's possible that he's referring to all absorptions they just undid, not just the Good Buu, which goes way back to Buuhan. "We did! Now that he's not as strong as he was when he had Gohan, Piccolo and Buu absorbed, we might be able to manage something".

In support of this interpretation, consider the following dialogue between Goku and Vegeta. I copied this from a scanlation, so I don't know how it sounds in the Viz or the original manga.

Vegeta: Plus, we don't need to fuse anymore.
Goku: We don't know yet! There's no guarantee that we'll save everyone and lead them to safety.

From the moment they defused, they were aiming to weaken Gohan-Buu to regular Super Buu form, so that he would be easier to defeat. They even think they won't need to fuse if they accomplish this, though I suppose one could say that they would merely wait for Gohan to wake up later to beat him for them.

The fact that he had just reverted back from his buff Buu form, which could plausibly be said to have presented a threat to Goku and Vegeta at their full size, even if his Super Buu form did not, should also account for something, I think.



In any case, I suppose both sides have some arguments to support their viewpoint. Those who think Goku was referring to their miniature sizes have what I mentioned earlier; that Goku threatened Buu indicating that he would be able to defeat him once they left his body. There's also the fact Goku didn't seem to nearly as frightened of a much stronger version of Buu earlier (when he accepted Rou Kaioshin's life, he was about to go and fight him without fusion or Potara). The opposing side has the things you mention. It comes to weighing those arguments against the others arguments. I personally don't think the issue is as clear-cut as some people think.

[Bussani]

I will now try to offer an alternate interpretation of that. However, I first have to say, I'm not confident that it's the correct one, nor do I really have an opinion on any of these issues yet. By posting here, I'm merely exploring various viewpoints to see which one suits me the best.

You know what? You're an awesome guy. This is the first time someone's explained that interpretation well enough to make it actually seem plausible to me. I'm not sure it's the one I'd lean towards at this time, but it's at least something I could put some proper thought into now. So thanks for that!

I personally don't think the issue is as clear-cut as some people think.

That's how I feel about almost every Dragon Ball topic. Sometimes I really don't have a favored interpretation and find myself happy just having a few options.

[Fox666]

But Goku even said that if they "go outside like this" they are no match for Boo. He even repeat himself later and says that they could "just go outside and merge" if they still had the Potara. So no matter what, Goku wasn't refering to their miniature size.

The "like this" quote can plausibly refer to either their miniature sizes or their non-fused states. As for the fact they thought they would do better if they had Potara; maybe that's true, after all, Vegetto was stronger than Buu even in his candy form. So maybe miniature Vegetto could defeat Buu. Or maybe they just thought they would be fast enough to get away.

If Goku said if they "go outside", then it doesn't refer to their size, since he was expecting to return to normal outside. It couldn't be more clear that Goku is not refering to his size (if fact Goku wasn't aware that their size would be a problem at all, and it needed Boo to explain it to him).

To be more exact, Goku words about using the Potara again are "If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!", meaning that even in normal conditions he was expecting to merge with Vegeta to fight Boo.

There's also the fact Goku didn't seem to nearly as frightened of a much stronger version of Buu earlier (when he accepted Rou Kaioshin's life, he was about to go and fight him without fusion or Potara).

Wasn't Goku's plan to merge with Gohan with the metamorian fusion? Anyway, this is how Goku reacted when he was about to fight a strengthened Evil Boo:



He looks frightened enough to me.

[FNF]

Oh great... The 'Goku was stronger than Evil Boo' argument...

The fact of the matter is that Goku didn't know his size would make a difference until after he tried blasting a hole in Boo. I mean, what exactly makes people argue that Goku is stronger than Evil Boo?

[Nazi Cola]

Oh great... The 'Goku was stronger than Evil Boo' argument...

The fact of the matter is that Goku didn't know his size would make a difference until after he tried blasting a hole in Boo. I mean, what exactly makes people argue that Goku is stronger than Evil Boo?

The anime, and Main Character Syndrome.

[Fox666]

And that the Boo saga is confusing, there isn't much to argue about in the Freeza or Cell sagas.

[FNF]

Oh great... The 'Goku was stronger than Evil Boo' argument...

The fact of the matter is that Goku didn't know his size would make a difference until after he tried blasting a hole in Boo. I mean, what exactly makes people argue that Goku is stronger than Evil Boo?

The anime, and Main Character Syndrome.

Which aren't relevant.


And I don't see what's so confusing about who's stronger out of the Boo's and the Z senshi.

[Bussani]

Oh great... The 'Goku was stronger than Evil Boo' argument...

No need to be dismissive about it. The forum exists for people to discuss these opinions and interpretations. So long as no one's trying to force their opinion on anyone else, it's all good.

Which aren't relevant.

To whom? The anime is relevant to some people.

[FNF]

Oh great... The 'Goku was stronger than Evil Boo' argument...

No need to be dismissive about it. The forum exists for people to discuss these opinions and interpretations. So long as no one's trying to force their opinion on anyone else, it's all good.

But this interpretation has been spewed out numerous times already... The argument, in general, is getting old.

Which aren't relevant.

To whom? The anime is relevant to some people.

It shouldn't be relevant in power debates if it is contradictory material. I mean, isn't there a statement from AT saying he wasn't involved in the anime script writing?