Gohan didn't go SSJ2 when attacking Boo's ball?

[Herms]

Assuming that Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Boo's ball, his fully powered Kamehameha should be stronger than standing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

On first seeing Super Saiyan Goku, Yamcha comments on him having such a big ki despite not even fighting, and Kuririn says something similar about Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks. So it seems that the power someone gives out when just standing/floating around doesn't compare to when they're actually fighting.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

To me, that sounds like "Wow, he is so strong and he is just standing, imagine how strong he will be when fighting.", which gives more evidence to the SS Gohan Kamehameha > Standing SS2 Gohan.

[Herms]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

[Hitiro]

On first seeing Super Saiyan Goku, Yamcha comments on him having such a big ki despite not even fighting, and Kuririn says something similar about Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks. So it seems that the power someone gives out when just standing/floating around doesn't compare to when they're actually fighting.

This is something I've always thought, even with characters who can't manipulate their powerlevel, I've always assumed that the enemies from the Saiyan saga to the Namek saga had some sort of resting powerlevel which would increase while they were fighting kind of like how we have a resting heartbeat and when we do exercise our heartbeat gets faster. So their surprise that characters like Goku, who can lower their powerlevel to fool their opponent, is really the only surprise they got. They know people can raise their powerlevels but are freaked out when its such a massive increase because the transition from a resting powerlevel to a battle state powerlevel shouldn't be as drastic as what they see from, for instance, Goku going from 5,000 to 90,000.

To me, that sounds like "Wow, he is so strong and he is just standing, imagine how strong he will be when fighting.", which gives more evidence to the SS Gohan Kamehameha > Standing SS2 Gohan.

This should be true regardless really. We've seen that ki based techniques have the potential of amplifying someones damage output to at least twice their powerlevel. If we take the earliest instances of the Z arc Raditz was taken by surprise that Goku's powerlevel went from 416 to 926 when he went to fire his Kamehameha. And we see multiple examples of this throughout the story, like Vegeta's Final Flash vs. Perfect Cell or Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho vs. Semi-Perfect Cell even SSJ Gotenks Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack vs. Super Buu.

[Saiga]

I had thought about the idea that someone standing around transformed isn't putting out all their power, but is the difference so great for Gohan to outperform his standing still SS2 when he's fighting as a SS1? And how the heck does that work, anyway? The Super Saiyan forms are just multiplications of base.

[Fox666]

I had thought about the idea that someone standing around transformed isn't putting out all their power, but is the difference so great for Gohan to outperform his standing still SS2 when he's fighting as a SS1?

Yes, and that would be very obvious considering Kaioshin didn't expected Gohan to be able to keep up with someone like Darbra, despite seeing him as a Super Saiyan 2 before, yet he managed to fight evenly with only his Super Saiyan form.

And how the heck does that work, anyway? The Super Saiyan forms are just multiplications of base.

Goku and the others can go so far as completely erase their Ki as Super Saiyans, so I don't think the multiplication changes because of that. Basically the maximum they can put as Super Saiyans will always be fifty times the maximum they can normally.

[Bussani]

Assuming that Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Boo's ball, his fully powered Kamehameha should be stronger than standing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

On first seeing Super Saiyan Goku, Yamcha comments on him having such a big ki despite not even fighting, and Kuririn says something similar about Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks. So it seems that the power someone gives out when just standing/floating around doesn't compare to when they're actually fighting.

And also how Gohan couldn't sense Videl until she started fighting--and she didn't even know about ki yet!

I'd just like to add, that even if we ignore all other sources but the manga that there's one thing that I can't reconcile with Gohan being SS1 against Dabra: Kaioshin's quote about Gohan's strength:

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

So the SS2 Gohan Kibito saw doesn't measure up to what Gohan showed later. How could this be possible if he was only a SS1?

Maybe he was just talking about seeing Gohan's power in action. I mean, he didn't seem to understand that Super Saiyans were a big deal even after seeing Gohan as one at the tournament. I've always found this line of his weird:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Does it seem like he already understood Gohan's power from that? Of course, this doesn't stop the interpretation of him being a Super Saiyan 2 from working, either.

[Saiga]

That quote is quite a good one, Bussani, it makes me think Gohan only 'proved' himself when he was used the Kamehameha later.

Hmm...

[smiley]

I'm new to this debate. I'm genuinely curious how those who think he was a Super Saiyan the entire time respond to this:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

As Gohan is saying this, his voice shaking and he's sweating as he's about to face Dabura. Why, if he doesn't even need to get angry, but he could just effortlessly stomp Dabura by just turning Super Saiyan 2. Why did Goku advice Gohan to get angry at all when it's not even necessary?

[Bussani]

I'm new to this debate. I'm genuinely curious how those who think he was a Super Saiyan the entire time respond to this:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

As Gohan is saying this, his voice shaking and he's sweating as he's about to face Dabura. Why, if he doesn't even need to get angry, but he could just effortlessly stomp Dabura by just turning Super Saiyan 2. Why did Goku advice Gohan to get angry at all when it's not even necessary?

I think those people would think that his inability to get angry like he "was back then" made it hard for him to become a Super Saiyan 2. Then the question becomes why he was able to transform at the tournament and not against Buu.

[Zephyr]

I think those people would think that his inability to get angry like he "was back then" made it hard for him to become a Super Saiyan 2. Then the question becomes why he was able to transform at the tournament and not against Buu.

Well when he did that it was relatively recently after Videl was almost beaten to death.

[Saiga]

I think those people would think that his inability to get angry like he "was back then" made it hard for him to become a Super Saiyan 2. Then the question becomes why he was able to transform at the tournament and not against Buu.

Well when he did that it was relatively recently after Videl was almost beaten to death.

But he had calmed down after she was given the Senzu bean.

[Zephyr]

Well when he did that it was relatively recently after Videl was almost beaten to death.

But he had calmed down after she was given the Senzu bean.

True. But when he transformed in front of Kibito, Videl's beating was more recent than when he fought Dabura. It being more recent may have made visualizing it easier to utilize for a anger boost.

[Bussani]

We've had this discussion a hundred times, and I still haven't found an interpretation that doesn't have a large flaw. I have absolutely no idea what Toriyama intended when it comes to Gohan at this point. Heck, maybe he didn't have any idea while he was writing it. That would explain a lot.

[Saiga]

Since the theory that he couldn't turn SS2 doesn't work for me, these are the only two problems I have with him being a SS1 during that entire segment:

1) Why didn't he turn SS2 for his Kamehameha?

And, as smiley asked, why would Goku tell him to get angry if he still had SS2 up his sleeve?

For the first, I have two explanations that could work. The first is that he did turn into a SS2 briefly, but there were no sparks because of the Kamehameha's aura. Because he used up so much energy with that attack, he dropped out of SS2 immediately afterwards. The second is that he didn't transform, because he put everything he had into the Kamehameha, putting the energy he would have used to transform towards making his Kamehameha stronger. Could a SS1's Kamehameha actually be stronger than a SS2's Kamehameha if the user has more energy to put into it? I think it's possible.

But for the second, I can't think of anything, unless Goku suspected that even SS2 wouldn't be enough for Dabra. Or, he was giving that advice in the event that Boo was revived and was as terrible as Kaioshin claimed. I guess I did think of something after all.

Could anyone add to these points? Though I had settled on him being a SS2 the last time this discussion was brought up, some new points brought forth have left me undecided once more.