Kid Buu

[smiley]

You know what? You're an awesome guy. This is the first time someone's explained that interpretation well enough to make it actually seem plausible to me. I'm not sure it's the one I'd lean towards at this time, but it's at least something I could put some proper thought into now. So thanks for that!

I'm glad we have reached some level of agreement. Like I said, I don't really have an opinion myself yet. If you look up my earlier posts, I used to think even Fat Buu was stronger than Kid Buu. Only recently did I actually decide to rethink these matters again.

If Goku said if they "go outside", then it doesn't refer to their size, since he was expecting to return to normal outside. It couldn't be more clear that Goku is not refering to his size (if fact Goku wasn't aware that their size would be a problem at all, and it needed Boo to explain it to him).

To be more exact, Goku words about using the Potara again are "If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!", meaning that even in normal conditions he was expecting to merge with Vegeta to fight Boo.

Not sure what the argument here is. The entire notion that Goku was referring to their miniature sizes is predicated upon the assumption that Goku either didn't think they would return to normal when they left Buu's body, or if he did, that they wouldn't do so instantly, so obviously, anyone who argued in favor of a position like that wouldn't agree that Goku expected they would return to normal.

Goku didn't necessarily need Buu to explain to him that size was a problem. Like I argued earlier (although I have yet to respond to DarkPrince), it may merely be the case that he was not aware of the extent of their handicap. He knew they were small, but not just how small.

Wasn't Goku's plan to merge with Gohan with the metamorian fusion?

No. When Rou Kaioshins asks him what he plans to do, there is a panel where he seems confused and baffled, and then after a few seconds of thinking, he only then says that they could use fusion. Initially, therefore, the idea of fusing hadn't even occurred to him, and he was only planning to go there and use his fists.

While I wouldn't suggest that this means Goku must be able to defeat Buutenks, it does suggest that he must have thought that he was capable of something. And being capable of anything at all against Buutenks seems incompatible with his complete fear of a much weaker version of Buu demonstrated later.

[smiley]

No, we can't conclude that, because from what we see, there was physically no increase to his power at all. The two were evenly matched for much of their fight, with only the occasional one-sided set of attacks here and there. All that Piccolo was banking on when he grew larger was that he'd be physically too large for Goku to fend off. No one commented at any point that he was stronger than before, just that he was far larger, but his speed didn't decrease at all.

I think I'll probably agree for now that there isn't anything in the text that necessarily suggests that Piccolo's power increased.

However, isn't it obvious that his strength did increase? I am not a physics expert, but if his mass increased, and speed didn't decrease, the force of his blows should become greater.

While it's true that, in Dragon ball, due to the ki factor, the bigger fighter isn't always stronger, I think it is the case that a far bigger version of one and the same person will be stronger than their smaller version.

When they are in Buu's body, Buu specifically cites their miniature size as the reason for Goku's inability to make a hole in his body. So, it would appear, their handicap wasn't a special characteristic of Buu's body, but something that naturally occurs as a consequence of becoming smaller. And if this is how things work in the Dragon ball universe, we would expect Goku to be aware of this even without Buu telling him that.

[Deep Thought]

Oh great... The 'Goku was stronger than Evil Boo' argument...

The fact of the matter is that Goku didn't know his size would make a difference until after he tried blasting a hole in Boo. I mean, what exactly makes people argue that Goku is stronger than Evil Boo?

Because look at the two characters that surpass Goku; Gotenks and "Ultimate" Gohan. Goku, in addition to being the main character and the one of the most capable fighters in the series, spent ten long, hard years earning Super Sayajin 3. Even though this training was mostly off-screen, that only adds to the mysterious and divine quality to it. Also, Goku is the one who ends up destroying Buu, so there's that aspect to consider as well. Now, lets look at the other two characters who surpass him;

Gotenks: A gag character. A fusion consisting of two minor, fairly generic, characters, who were introduced at the Buu saga and have no prior precedent, besides partly Trunks. In addition to achieving and mastering the Super Sayajin form in less than a third of the time as their parents for gag reason, their cumulative 20 years of lackluster, childish combat experience and some arbitrary technique pulled straight out of the blue allows them to go far beyond Goku's lifetime, 40-something years, of extremely rigorous training. Despite all this, fails to beat the villain.

Gohan: Got his power through a gag, becomes the strongest character in the series by doing nothing but being at the right place at the right time. Fails to beat the villain.

Nothing else in Dragon Ball was ever quite so cheap as this. True, Gohan had surpassed Goku prior to the Buu Arc, but there are two things to consider. One, the discrepancy between Goku and Gohan wasn't that big; aside from Super Sayajin 2, they were pretty much equal, with Gohan being a little stronger. Second, there was a precedent for Gohan's anger in the Cell Games, so it works, narratively, he had to suffer and struggle to bring that power out, it wasn't just "Oh, look at all that latent power you have, let me bring it out. There, you are now all powerful."

For the record, I am firmly in the the "Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu" camp. I'm just saying that the narrative in the Buu Arc was so shoddy that I can easily see the outrage on the other side of the spectrum.

[Kid Buu]

Okay, read through this thread, wanted to address some points, and some theories.

1.) Dai Kaioshin being absorbed weakened Buff Buu.
THEORY: Dai Kaioshin did power up Buff Buu, but Fat Buu never reached that potential. Basically, in my theory, Fat Buu is the surpressed version of Buff Buu + Dai Kaioshin, where as Super Buu is Buff Buu + Dai Kaioshin at full power.

2.) SSj3 Gotenks Vs. Super Buu
THEORY: Super Buu mentioned that when he was battling Gotenks, he could sense Gohan powering up miles away and planned on absorbing Gotenks. Therefore, its possible that Buu held back for Gotenks, in order to think Gotenks was confident enough to take Super Buu in the rematch.

3.) Super Buu vs Kid Buu
THEORY: Okay, first I will straight up say I think Super Buu is more powerful. But even though who believe Super Buu is stronger, have to admit that Kid Buu with the absorption of South Kaioshin (aka Buff Buu) is stronger than Super Buu...

...so how strong is the South Kaioshin? Now here are the parts what I start theorizing - Supreme Kai seemed really impressed with the SSj2s, so I can't imagine South Kaioshin being more powerful than all of them. By the time we get to see the Kid Buu part of the manga, SSj2 is pretty much an miniscule feat. So I'm thinking Kid Buu + someone around SSj2 tier at best > Super Buu. So I think Super Buu is stronger, but not by much.

Alright, thanks for reading people. Hope these things made sense.