Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Herms]

Raditz is faster than the speed of death.

[rereboy]

http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/51/10/
Keep viewing from there. As you can see Master Roshi manages to reach the moon within a matter of seconds. Ki gets much much faster as the series goes on and charaters manage to dodge these much faster attacks with minimal effort. I would say these guys are FTL.

Yes, the anime/manga would take into account those real life distances and make the audience wait a long time for the explosion just to be accurate.

[TheMightyOzaru]

http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/51/10/
Keep viewing from there. As you can see Master Roshi manages to reach the moon within a matter of seconds. Ki gets much much faster as the series goes on and charaters manage to dodge these much faster attacks with minimal effort. I would say these guys are FTL.

Yes, the anime/manga would take into account those real life distances and make the audience wait a long time for the explosion just to be accurate.

Umm apparently you missed that part where the Oozaru was about to attack Jackie Chun =/. What you think the Oozaru is gonna stand there for 5 minutes waiting for the beam to hit the moon? I don't think so. This attack was able to reach the moon in seconds. Hell Piccolo's attack on the moon looks almost instant. These characters are much faster then we've given them credit for. Now of course travel speed is a different story. Obviously these guys have never displayed anything close to light speed when traveling, Gotenks aside and thats even debatable, this probably has to do with energy consumption. Traveling at speeds near or faster than light would probably eat a lot of energy really quickly. Short bursts of speed wouldn't consume a lot of energy.

[Sinestro]

Seriously is like screwattack hates dbz thats why the dbz fighters keep getting the shaft from them.First Vegeta and now Goku

How did Vegeta get the shaft? Heck, he won his battle.

[Mewzard]

Piccolo's attack is the LIGHT OF FREAKIN' DEATH.

Because every name needs to be taken literally? So, I suppose the Kamehameha shoots a wave of turtles that explode on contact, or perhaps the Hawaiian king comes flying out every time it's fired?

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fUJ6LehQ3I#t=0m57s

Or they fire the Burger King at their foe, whatever.

Point is, name's not the issue. Raditz was faster than anyone Piccolo's ever faced up to that point, of course he's surprised he can dodge.

As for dodging speed vs traveling speed, these guys are constantly trying to dodge at high speeds. It's not as consistent as a straight flight, but it's not like they don't have to dodge rapid strikes in many cases. If they could dodge at the speed of light, then there is no place on the planet they couldn't get to instantly with little effort (they would move right back to where they stand in a sixth of a second, that's almost no time at all).

[destro4thewin]

Seriously is like screwattack hates dbz thats why the dbz fighters keep getting the shaft from them.First Vegeta and now Goku

How did Vegeta get the shaft? Heck, he won his battle.

Vegeta the second most powerful z warrior almost lost to a hedgehog but the worse is that they ignore their own rules for Vegeta but not for Shadow.Unless you call emeralds something natural that Shadow can create from nothing.
So wait letting Shadow go search for the emeralds is cool and Bulma's blutzwaves is unfair?
I am just saiyan

[Insertclevername]

The emeralds were his weapon, the blutz wave was outside help from Blooma. To be honest, Vegeta basically was kicking his ass before Super Shadow anyway. I have no problem believing in that. I really don't see what the problem is. He won the fight fair and square.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The emeralds were his weapon, the blutz wave was outside help from Blooma. To be honest, Vegeta basically was kicking his ass before Super Shadow anyway. I have no problem believing in that. I really don't see what the problem is. He won the fight fair and square.

Well that fight actually wasn't fair and square since Shadow should have won and you know how big of a Vegeta fan I am. There were a multitude of ways Shadow could have killed Vegeta but nope, Screwattack decided to make Shadow a dumb ass by chaos controlling him into water and onto the moon -_-. Seriously why didn't he chaos control him into the Sun? Why did Shadow's chaos blast not go off when he reverted when clearly it would have gone off just as powerful since he is missing his inhibitor rings? Super Shadow also has God-like power. He has fought a Super Dimensional God that warped all of existence across time by simply coming into existence. This God also casually eats dimensions. This is also just Sega Shadow. Archie Shadow would lobotomize SSJ4 Gogeta in his base form. Sonic characters are incredibly f***ing broken.

[Sinestro]

The emeralds were his weapon, the blutz wave was outside help from Blooma. To be honest, Vegeta basically was kicking his ass before Super Shadow anyway. I have no problem believing in that. I really don't see what the problem is. He won the fight fair and square.

Seemed pretty fair to me as well.

[Saiga]

Goku attacking Superman out of the blue in the middle of the city is pretty damn OOC, but I guess they don't care about that stuff for the sake of having the battle happen. It can't have been too hard for Goku to offer to take Superman some place no one will get hurt (Kaioshin realm), though.

[Attitudefan]

http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/51/10/
Keep viewing from there. As you can see Master Roshi manages to reach the moon within a matter of seconds. Ki gets much much faster as the series goes on and charaters manage to dodge these much faster attacks with minimal effort. I would say these guys are FTL.

Exactly, and as they get stronger they become much faster.

[Herms]

Goku attacking Superman out of the blue in the middle of the city is pretty damn OOC, but I guess they don't care about that stuff for the sake of having the battle happen. It can't have been too hard for Goku to offer to take Superman some place no one will get hurt (Kaioshin realm), though.

Yeah, there's a couple scenes in the series where before he fights someone Goku asks that they move somewhere less crowded (or less littered with his friends' bodies). Toriyama even comments on this trend in his DB Landmark interview, saying that since he felt it to troublesome to draw cities as backgrounds, he'd always either have Goku and co. leave or have the city quickly destroyed.

Us Kanzenshuu folks did provide them with gobs of research, but it was mostly on Goku's power and abilities. Maybe we didn't provide enough on his personality?

[TonyTheTiger]

There were a multitude of ways Shadow could have killed Vegeta but nope, Screwattack decided to make Shadow a dumb ass by chaos controlling him into water and onto the moon -_-. Seriously why didn't he chaos control him into the Sun? Why did Shadow's chaos blast not go off when he reverted when clearly it would have gone off just as powerful since he is missing his inhibitor rings?

Again, the actual fights aren't to be taken literally. They're a dramatization for entertainment purposes. They aren't actually what determines the winner. It's the analysis that does. The show could actually just be an analysis followed by the declaration of a winner. But because that would be boring and anticlimactic they put on a little show that just symbolizes the fight. It's not a literal "Shadow would do this and Vegeta would do that."

It can't have been too hard for Goku to offer to take Superman some place no one will get hurt (Kaioshin realm), though.

Superman would decline the offer.

See, that's the thing. In order for the fight to happen someone has to behave out of character, even for a moment, just to get the fight going. So either Goku takes the first swing or Superman accepts a challenge for no reason at all. They opted for Goku taking the swing. But the important thing to note is that immediately after that initial confrontation both characters snap right into their most iconic selves once the fight actually starts. It's like, if there is an out of character moment, it's literally just one moment right at the beginning of the fight to justify the conflict, which is a reasonable indulgence for something called Death Battle. Again, most previous episodes just have the competitors square off with no exposition at all. This time they actually made an attempt.

There was an issue of Superman/Batman that lampshaded this problem. Two kids were debating over how a hypothetical fight to the death would go between Batman and Superman (while said characters were eavesdropping). The kids went back and forth over possible reasons the fight would happen but realized that there was no reason the fight would happen and decided to just jump in with the understanding that there is some disagreement that somehow couldn't be resolved without a fight. So we're never actually informed what they're arguing about. The first line out of Superman's mouth is something like, "So you really won't change your mind?" And it escalates from there.

[Saiga]

They would have been better off without the attempt then.

[Bussani]

"He side stepped it... no one can dodge so quickly!" implying that Raditz does move as fast as light

I don't see how that quote is supposed to imply that.

Piccolo's attack is the LIGHT OF FREAKIN' DEATH.

Putting light in the name doesn't make it as fast as light.

I think the only thing that hints at anything in Dragon Ball being as fast as light is the calculations fans do. Things like "it reached the Moon this quickly, so using real life distances, it must be this fast". But you yourself dismissed calculations like that since they're something the author likely didn't think about, which I completely agree with.

[Insertclevername]

I'm surprised there aren't any Battle Power related Calculus questions on tests by now, the kids doing all the equations would ace those test! lol

On Topic:

I wonder what caused there animator to scrap the last half of the fight? From what I could guess, they made it sound like a creative conflict.

[Mewzard]

There were a multitude of ways Shadow could have killed Vegeta but nope, Screwattack decided to make Shadow a dumb ass by chaos controlling him into water and onto the moon -_-. Seriously why didn't he chaos control him into the Sun? Why did Shadow's chaos blast not go off when he reverted when clearly it would have gone off just as powerful since he is missing his inhibitor rings?

Again, the actual fights aren't to be taken literally. They're a dramatization for entertainment purposes. They aren't actually what determines the winner. It's the analysis that does. The show could actually just be an analysis followed by the declaration of a winner. But because that would be boring and anticlimactic they put on a little show that just symbolizes the fight. It's not a literal "Shadow would do this and Vegeta would do that."

It can't have been too hard for Goku to offer to take Superman some place no one will get hurt (Kaioshin realm), though.

Superman would decline the offer.

See, that's the thing. In order for the fight to happen someone has to behave out of character, even for a moment, just to get the fight going. So either Goku takes the first swing or Superman accepts a challenge for no reason at all. They opted for Goku taking the swing. But the important thing to note is that immediately after that initial confrontation both characters snap right into their most iconic selves once the fight actually starts. It's like, if there is an out of character moment, it's literally just one moment right at the beginning of the fight to justify the conflict, which is a reasonable indulgence for something called Death Battle. Again, most previous episodes just have the competitors square off with no exposition at all. This time they actually made an attempt.

There was an issue of Superman/Batman that lampshaded this problem. Two kids were debating over how a hypothetical fight to the death would go between Batman and Superman (while said characters were eavesdropping). The kids went back and forth over possible reasons the fight would happen but realized that there was no reason the fight would happen and decided to just jump in with the understanding that there is some disagreement that somehow couldn't be resolved without a fight. So we're never actually informed what they're arguing about. The first line out of Superman's mouth is something like, "So you really won't change your mind?" And it escalates from there.

Exactly, Superman isn't the kind of guy who normally fights at all unless he has to in order to stop a villain or save someone. Superman knows his abilities all too well, and knows the kind of untold devastation he could cause if he went all out. That's why he almost always holds back, doesn't fight unless he needs to, and even then, still only brings his A game out in a dire crisis. So, we have to play a little OoC on both ends to make this fight work. I won't deny, maybe Superman would get slightly into a fight with an opponent more his level if he knew it wasn't for the fate of the world, or to the death, but I imagine he won't unleash his full arsenal until Goku is dumb enough to whip out his big guns and risk the Earth for the fight.

Goku and Superman are both strong, nice characters who share a similar origin, but while they both save the world, they live under different motivations. Goku is almost childishly innocent with his love for fighting, and pushing himself. He's put the Earth at risk Superman can also be almost argued as childish in a way; he's called the big blue boyscout by some for a reason. He goes out of his way to do the right thing, follow the rules as closely as possible, and could be seen as too trusting to some (well, not to Luthor or his old rogue's gallery of course). Priority #1 for Superman is saving lives, and he'll do all he can, fairly, and without taking lives, to see those goals met.

A lot of how they differ does come from their raising. Goku was raised by a martial artist (Grandpa Gohan) who taught him to fight among a few other things (though not much sadly), pushing him into that Saiyan nature of loving battle, whereas Superman was raised by a kind farmer and his wife (Jonathan and Martha Kent), who instilled strong morals, a good work ethic, and the support he needed as powers he could barely control at first came into his possession. Both were good people to raise the respective people away from becoming bad people, but naturally, the style of good varies because of these distinct raisings. Chaotic Good, Lawful Good, that sort of thing.

The only problem with the Death Battle here is that I can't see either side killing their opponent. We know they will (since it's a Death Battle), but unless Goku threatens to blow up the Earth, I don't see Supes going for the kill (and even if he did, I'd more likely imagine Supes taking him alive, but unconscious). As for Goku, if the fight is fun, he wouldn't kill Superman because he'd want a rematch. He so rarely kills a foe as an adult anyways, and it's only ones who threaten those he cares about (which Superman would never do).

But hey, their show, their rules.

[rereboy]

http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/51/10/
Keep viewing from there. As you can see Master Roshi manages to reach the moon within a matter of seconds. Ki gets much much faster as the series goes on and charaters manage to dodge these much faster attacks with minimal effort. I would say these guys are FTL.

Yes, the anime/manga would take into account those real life distances and make the audience wait a long time for the explosion just to be accurate.

Umm apparently you missed that part where the Oozaru was about to attack Jackie Chun =/. What you think the Oozaru is gonna stand there for 5 minutes waiting for the beam to hit the moon? I don't think so. This attack was able to reach the moon in seconds. Hell Piccolo's attack on the moon looks almost instant. These characters are much faster then we've given them credit for. Now of course travel speed is a different story. Obviously these guys have never displayed anything close to light speed when traveling, Gotenks aside and thats even debatable, this probably has to do with energy consumption. Traveling at speeds near or faster than light would probably eat a lot of energy really quickly. Short bursts of speed wouldn't consume a lot of energy.

It was you that completely misunderstood what I meant. Its simply ridiculous to expect the anime/manga to follow the "rules" and actually make the audience wait for the moon to explode.

The anime/manga makes the moon explode instantaneous for the situation to work and for the audience not have to wait for it, not because it wants to tell us that the beams are faster than light.

In fact, if you think about it, even if the beam was faster than light, the light of the explosion of the moon would only travel at light speed. That means that it would be impossible to see the explosion of the moon instantly from Earth. But the anime/manga simply forgets such things and that doesn't mean that they are implying that they are faster than light.

Same thing in movie 5, when Coola explodes in the sun. That explosion should only be visible on Earth after 8 minutes, because that's how long light from the sun takes to reach Earth. Are they implying that light is faster in Dragon Ball than it is on real life? No, they just forget such things for the situation to work.

[VegettoEX]

That's what Ben from ScrewAttack referred to as "cinematic time", which we certainly tossed around because of situations like these. Again, I haven't seen anything anyone's brought up NOT be something that has already been taken into consideration back in our research and documentation process .

[Puto]

There were a multitude of ways Shadow could have killed Vegeta but nope, Screwattack decided to make Shadow a dumb ass by chaos controlling him into water and onto the moon -_-. Seriously why didn't he chaos control him into the Sun? Why did Shadow's chaos blast not go off when he reverted when clearly it would have gone off just as powerful since he is missing his inhibitor rings?

Again, the actual fights aren't to be taken literally. They're a dramatization for entertainment purposes. They aren't actually what determines the winner. It's the analysis that does. The show could actually just be an analysis followed by the declaration of a winner. But because that would be boring and anticlimactic they put on a little show that just symbolizes the fight. It's not a literal "Shadow would do this and Vegeta would do that."

It can't have been too hard for Goku to offer to take Superman some place no one will get hurt (Kaioshin realm), though.

Superman would decline the offer.

See, that's the thing. In order for the fight to happen someone has to behave out of character, even for a moment, just to get the fight going. So either Goku takes the first swing or Superman accepts a challenge for no reason at all. They opted for Goku taking the swing. But the important thing to note is that immediately after that initial confrontation both characters snap right into their most iconic selves once the fight actually starts. It's like, if there is an out of character moment, it's literally just one moment right at the beginning of the fight to justify the conflict, which is a reasonable indulgence for something called Death Battle. Again, most previous episodes just have the competitors square off with no exposition at all. This time they actually made an attempt.

There was an issue of Superman/Batman that lampshaded this problem. Two kids were debating over how a hypothetical fight to the death would go between Batman and Superman (while said characters were eavesdropping). The kids went back and forth over possible reasons the fight would happen but realized that there was no reason the fight would happen and decided to just jump in with the understanding that there is some disagreement that somehow couldn't be resolved without a fight. So we're never actually informed what they're arguing about. The first line out of Superman's mouth is something like, "So you really won't change your mind?" And it escalates from there.

Exactly, Superman isn't the kind of guy who normally fights at all unless he has to in order to stop a villain or save someone. Superman knows his abilities all too well, and knows the kind of untold devastation he could cause if he went all out. That's why he almost always holds back, doesn't fight unless he needs to, and even then, still only brings his A game out in a dire crisis. So, we have to play a little OoC on both ends to make this fight work. I won't deny, maybe Superman would get slightly into a fight with an opponent more his level if he knew it wasn't for the fate of the world, or to the death, but I imagine he won't unleash his full arsenal until Goku is dumb enough to whip out his big guns and risk the Earth for the fight.

Goku and Superman are both strong, nice characters who share a similar origin, but while they both save the world, they live under different motivations. Goku is almost childishly innocent with his love for fighting, and pushing himself. He's put the Earth at risk Superman can also be almost argued as childish in a way; he's called the big blue boyscout by some for a reason. He goes out of his way to do the right thing, follow the rules as closely as possible, and could be seen as too trusting to some (well, not to Luthor or his old rogue's gallery of course). Priority #1 for Superman is saving lives, and he'll do all he can, fairly, and without taking lives, to see those goals met.

A lot of how they differ does come from their raising. Goku was raised by a martial artist (Grandpa Gohan) who taught him to fight among a few other things (though not much sadly), pushing him into that Saiyan nature of loving battle, whereas Superman was raised by a kind farmer and his wife (Jonathan and Martha Kent), who instilled strong morals, a good work ethic, and the support he needed as powers he could barely control at first came into his possession. Both were good people to raise the respective people away from becoming bad people, but naturally, the style of good varies because of these distinct raisings. Chaotic Good, Lawful Good, that sort of thing.

The only problem with the Death Battle here is that I can't see either side killing their opponent. We know they will (since it's a Death Battle), but unless Goku threatens to blow up the Earth, I don't see Supes going for the kill (and even if he did, I'd more likely imagine Supes taking him alive, but unconscious). As for Goku, if the fight is fun, he wouldn't kill Superman because he'd want a rematch. He so rarely kills a foe as an adult anyways, and it's only ones who threaten those he cares about (which Superman would never do).

But hey, their show, their rules.

The rules of DEATH BATTLE state that the only personality traits that are removed for the battle are those that would prevent killing an opponent.