Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Mewzard]

I read some comments about superman and his speed and still I can't understand why people think he is so fast.It is stated tha "he is faster than the speed of light" "that flash reaches the speed of light" "superman is slower than flash"at least when it comes to running.SO superman can only FLY in light speed.So no running,walking or dodging.Goku's main speed appears most in his dodging speed.So why superman can even catch Goku?In Cell saga cameras or naked eye couldn't catch Goku's movements so?Also we compare some martial arts that Superman learned with Goku's god training?Is Popo's, Kami's, King Kai's training methods so lame that superman can surpass with basic martial arts?I was thinking that Kameshennins training was advanced but hell superman can surpass God training with a training program my Karate teacher has mastered...

Like Turbo said above, the majority of what Goku did was strength training. I would argue the only real martial arts he learned were from Grandpa Gohan, when we saw him put that training to use for several different fighting styles mimicing animals. Kamesennin doesn't even have a martial art, he just makes people do weight training. Most of what Goku learns after we first see him are ways to build his strength, and techniques that generally boil down to blast enemy, power self up, etc.

So yes, what Martial Arts training Superman has is well more than Goku has had (or at the very least, more than he ever learns beyond his training with Grandpa Gohan). Superman's no Batman when it comes to Martial Arts (far from it), but at least he has knowledge of fighting techniques, and puts them to use when need be (aka, fighting opponents closer to his level).

And if we're going by peak level, Superman is much faster than the Speed of Light AND the Flash is faster than Superman. I recall a story where the Flash had to race a teleporter to another Galaxy (or maybe to the other side of the Galaxy), and the Flash beat the teleporter there. So yeah, Superman's never been that fast, though I do recall a story from a few years back (in post-Crisis continuity) where he was out in space (by Jupiter I think), and heard cries for help from Metropolis, and flew there in moments (still too late *most of the population vanished for some reason I can't recall*, but it was one Hell of a speed feat).

Lots of people have insane speed feats in fiction if you look further into it. Like when Cygnus Hyoga fought Scorpio Miro (Saint Seiya came out during Dragon Ball's release), and despite his foe fighting at lightspeed, Hyoga surpassed him by striking with his Diamond Dust on the 15 points on his body that make up the Scorpio constellation to freeze his Gold Cloth at a level lower than is normally required in the same instant Miro went for the finishing blow. Or some of the crazier feats in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure involving moving in frozen time (or even worse, what the villain did in Part 6: Stone Ocean...that was...something I don't want to spoil).

Dragon Ball is a series that has some insane feats, but you gotta remember, there's always a bigger fish out in the sea, whether in cartoons, comics (Anime and Manga are just Japanese Cartoons and Comics, so I'll just call them as such), movies, books, etc. Even in the more reasonable post-Crisis era, it'll take Goku at his best if he wants to win.

[dario03]

I agree with the 2 posts above. Plus like I said earlier in this thread sometimes DC will say something is close to lightspeed but if you do the math it would have to be far far faster (in my example it was trillions of times faster).

[Herms]

People seem to be forgetting Goku's training under Popo and the God of Earth, which was focused largely on ki-related skills and mental preparation rather than increasing Goku's power, though that was a part of it too. Also that Kame-sennin's training involved a whole lot more than the heavy turtle shells. That was just the icing on the cake. Anyway, here's what I wrote on Goku's martial arts training during the initial research period:

Grandpa Gohan first taught him martial arts as a kid. We don't really know what this training consisted of, but Kame-sennin says Goku and Kuririn are already "capable of the general basics" in chapter 26(Kuririn trained at Oorin Temple for 8 years, so apparently Goku's training with Gohan was at least equivalent to that).

His training with Kame-sennin was also martial arts training, it's just that the style wasn't one that focused on learning specific moves. The basics of Kame-sennin's style are all contained in the various activities he had his pupils do, but he left it up to them to decide how best to apply these things. Karin's training was also of the same sort of "doesn't look like training but actually is" variety: running around up in the very thin air at the tower's top taught Goku how to cut down on unnecessary movements.

Then there's Kaio's training of course. We only get to see Goku running after Bubbles at the start of his training, and him rehearsing the Genki-Dama at the end, so the bulk of what Goku actually did with Kaio is kinda a mystery, but Kaio is described as a martial arts master and says he'll teach Goku martial arts.

[Insertclevername]

Isn't there a line somewhere about Chi Chi doing Crane style fighting in the manga? It's in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. If so, then wouldn't that imply that Kame-sennin does teach some form of martial arts (and possibly had taught that to Gokuu too)?

[TonyTheTiger]

I've always interpreted Goku's training in the 80s action movie montage kind of way. Where the training is all encompassing but we're only shown it in small pieces. So even if we're only seeing him do things that are mostly strength building, that's just how the story chooses to inform us that he's getting more powerful in general, not just in the specific way we witness. In that sense, I've always taken it for granted that Goku always walked away from his various teachers as an all around better fighter than he was before.

[Herms]

Isn't there a line somewhere about Chi Chi doing Crane style fighting in the manga? It's in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. If so, then wouldn't that imply that Kame-sennin does teach some form of martial arts (and possibly had taught that to Gokuu too)?

Yeah, he says that her style resembles that of his own school.

So, here's what Kame-sennin tells Goku and Kuririn:

Kame-sennin: “I have practically nothing to teach you that could be called ‘kenpou’. [ ] All the basics of the Kame-sen School of martial arts has been included in the training which you’ve been doing every day these 7 months. It seems you haven’t realized it, but your eyes, fists, legs, your entire body, and even your mind have been toughened up. ‘Kenpou’ is nothing more than putting that into practice. You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself. For that purpose, go study kenpou on your own, thinking on your own how to utilize the basics which you have learned.”

In other words, the basics of his "school of martial arts" are contained within their training (the milk delivery, the bee dodging, field-ploughing, book-learning, swimming, etc etc), but he has "practically nothing" in the way of "Kenpou" to teach them. Rather, it's up to then to decide how best to put the basics they've "learned" into practice.

So...there's an apparent contrast here between "martial arts" in general and "Kenpou" in particular. It seems that Kenpou is supposed to refer to more complex techniques, the application of the basics (Goku also refers to Grampa Gohan as teaching him Kenpou). But "the basics" are still a form of martial arts, something Goku and Kuririn have "learned", and involves the toughening up of their mind as well as their body.

OK, Kame-sennin's training is a lot more than just weight training, but does it make any sense for Kame-sennin to say Chi-Chi's style is close to his own, if he leaves it up to his pupils to study their own Kenpou? I guess we're supposed to assume that Chi-Chi's style resembled "the basics" Kame-sennin teaches enough for him to take notice. I guess the idea is that all that bee-dodging and running around delivering milk might seem silly, but beats into you a recognizable unique type of movement.

Which again seems to tie in with the Karin Tower training: running around in thin air teaches you to cut down on unneccessary movement, which is an important part of martial arts even if chasing a cat with a water judge doesn't seem like martial arts training.

[Attitudefan]

Raditz doesn't need to be particularly faster than light since he's faster than Piccolo can aim and shoot at that point much like how Batman and Captain America dodged bullets since they are moving faster than the guy that can aim and fire there guys successfully enough to hit them. That doesn't mean they are faster than sound though. You yourself said Piccolo and Goku couldn't even follow Raditz's movements when he jetted right behind them. In order for Raditz to dodge Piccolo's attack all Raditz needs to do is predict when Piccolo is going to fire and dodge just before he fires, but Piccolo even tagging Raditz even slightly always came off as plot induced stupidity. Just earlier Raditz moved fast enough to strike both Goku and Piccolo from behind before they even knew what happened and he was holding back there, why he can't simply rush behind and punch Piccolo's head off from behind before he could react never made sense considering they were about similar distance from each other when they fight first broke out when he fired his signature attack at Raditz.

The reason: Toriyama effect. I think this is why calculating how fast characters and ki are, plus tracking power levels is impossible in Dragonball. Everything falls under the Toriyama effect, where Ki is faster than light at one moment to where it travels no faster than a jet plane.

[Hellspawn28]

People still think Radditz is faster then light ? People should know by now that it was only in the first US DBZ dub while the Ultimate Uncut dub, the Japanese dub and the Kai dun never mention it.

[Attitudefan]

People still think Radditz is faster then light ? People should know by now that it was only in the first US DBZ dub while the Ultimate Uncut dub, the Japanese dub and the Kai dun never mention it.

Point is mate, By the time SSJ4 comes around in GT (cause this Death Battle includes it and the IT that acts like time bending) Goku is pretty damn fast.

[TonyTheTiger]

This is probably the one category where it's a wash. At these speeds we can probably say that both characters essentially move instantaneously.

[hulkty]

I still wonder how KaiserNeko is gonna do Goku's voice as a SSj4... Will it be the same or will he try to make it deeper

[dbzfan7]

I still wonder how KaiserNeko is gonna do Goku's voice as a SSj4... Will it be the same or will he try to make it deeper

I think you mean Masako X. Kaiser Neko doesn't voice Goku. he did do SSJ4 once in 2010. Though I hope he improved because it sounded weird here.

[destro4thewin]

he did do SSJ4 once in 2010. Though I hope he improved because it sounded weird here.[/url]

I don't know Masako's voice brings a little bit mixed feelings to me.He doesn't do a kid like Nozawa voice and he isn't 100% doing a manly Schemmel.Masako's voice shines when it comes to girl voices.He made a great Ed mother voice for Falerros AbRidged series.Also I have seen a small parody with him doing ssj4 Goku and it was....mediocre (he tried to pull a heavy Schemmel voice).So 100% ssj4 will be a challenge for him.I just hope he won't keep his ssj one. Also for Goku's training.Goku keeps always a fighting stance which changes every saga so I guess anyone that trained him teached him new martial art skills.(I guess he pulls a kenichi style.He learns many mixed arts)Also his animal mimic techniques in the budokai's show that he can use advanced techniques and his ability to copy moves (like Tiens 4 arm Tec) shows that he can copy almost anything.(copying every move you see implies that he knows at least the basic of every martial art. (sorry I writing like that,I am using a smartphone and my thump is killing me)

[dbzfan7]

According to Ben's twitter we should see the fight this week.

[goku the krump dancer]

I can't find the link to that guy's Form Spring Page ( the one who was answering questions ) but I love the answer he gave about Goku breathing in space.

He said : "No we don't think he can breath in space but we do believe his body is strong enough to endure the vacuum of Outer Space".

While personally I'm more inclined to believe that he can breathe in space, I just simply love that answer. I wonder why no one thought of that before... thats such a simple answer to one of Dragon Ball's most heated debates.

[Bussani]

I can't find the link to that guy's Form Spring Page ( the one who was answering questions ) but I love the answer he gave about Goku breathing in space.

He said : "No we don't think he can breath in space but we do believe his body is strong enough to endure the vacuum of Outer Space".

While personally I'm more inclined to believe that he can breathe in space, I just simply love that answer. I wonder why no one thought of that before... thats such a simple answer to one of Dragon Ball's most heated debates.

I think plenty of people have thought of that before. I know I've mentioned it in this thread.

If Goku can breathe in space, what exactly would he be breathing? Vacuum?

[Ringworm128]

My theory has always been that they're just able to hold their breaths for a really long time whether it be through ki or them just having really tough bodies.

[rereboy]

I can't find the link to that guy's Form Spring Page ( the one who was answering questions ) but I love the answer he gave about Goku breathing in space.

He said : "No we don't think he can breath in space but we do believe his body is strong enough to endure the vacuum of Outer Space".

While personally I'm more inclined to believe that he can breathe in space, I just simply love that answer. I wonder why no one thought of that before... thats such a simple answer to one of Dragon Ball's most heated debates.

As far as I can tell, most of the fan base agrees that Goku wouldn't be able to breathe in space (like he can't in water) but, besides that problem, he/his body would be able to cope with being in space. Its already been discussed extensively in this very topic, in fact.

As for breathing in space... Yeah, I don't see any logic in that. As far as we can tell, Saiyans need oxygen/air to breathe, since Goku can't remain indefinitely inside water. And in space there just isn't any air/oxygen to be found.

So, for Goku, being or fighting in space would be kind of similar to being inside water. Being or fighting in space or in water wouldn't be as comfortable for Goku as it would be to be or to fight on the planet's surface on dry land, but he would be able to cope with it just fine at least until he runs out of air/oxygen, which is the real problem.

[TonyTheTiger]

This is what screws Goku the most if both characters go all out. Disregarding the whole "let's not blow up the planet" mentality both characters would obviously have, if something like that were to happen Goku literally can't survive for more than a few minutes.

:Earth blows up:
Goku:
Superman:
Goku: Don't worry, we can use the Dragon Balls to bring it back.
Superman: How do we do that?
Goku: It's easy. All we have to do is...:dies:
Superman: ...Um...fuck.
Wiz & Boomstick: Superman Wins!
Superman: Not really, assholes!
Goku: *telepathy* Hi!
Superman: WTF?
Kaio: *sigh* He's with me.
Goku: Oh, someone else wants to say hi.
Superman: Who?
Batman: Fuck you, Clark.

[Puto]

Superman can't survive in outer space indefinitely either. He can just hold his breath for a really long time.