Chi Chi and Goku! How come?

[DBZAOTA482]

Can you deny that?
Of course we can also say that Toryiama apparently never thinks twice when it comes to character building.

Yeah, but calling him a selfish, sociopathic asshole is a bit harsh of a generalization.
Then again the Majin Boo Saga doesn't exactly reflect on his character in the best of light.

[soulnova]

I do believe that Goku catches on that he's not the best husband and father very early on their marriage. He's really not up to the expectations. He knows he doesn't have a job and that really pisses her off.

He does not know anything about this "head of a family" stuff and he just goes along with what Chi-Chi says they are supposed to do. You could say that Goku is a man-child and he needs to be taken care off... and he loves her. Forget the sex, she cooks.

"Yeah Chi Chi, pour that maple syrup all over my breakfast, you beautiful lady that lives in my house." -DBZA

[TonyTheTiger]

I get the impression we aren't supposed to dwell on it. If we start applying real world values, ethics, and other standards onto Dragon Ball we'll walk away thinking it to be absolutely awful. But the same goes for pretty much any fairy tale. And Dragon Ball is, in many ways, a kind of fairy tale. We don't think too hard about Snow White's value system. We just accept that she's "pureness incarnate" or whatever. We don't question if the Prince should marry Cinderella based on shoe size. We don't even really question the society itself for being an absolute monarchy despite much of modern culture being founded on hating the idea. Yeah, there are a lot of deconstructions out there but Dragon Ball is hardly one of them.

Dragon Ball offers a handful of offhand gags associated with "real world" issues like jobs and education but, generally speaking, it's such a strange ass world that we're hardly in a position to question it. We're meant to take Goku as the hero because, in the context of this world where a magic dragon god can bring people back to life and where death itself is more or less literally "going to another dimension," he is the one saving it regardless of whether or not we would tolerate his behavior were he featured on CNN.

[Rocketman]

I get the impression we aren't supposed to dwell on it. If we start applying real world values, ethics, and other standards onto Dragon Ball we'll walk away thinking it to be absolutely awful. But the same goes for pretty much any fairy tale. And Dragon Ball is, in many ways, a kind of fairy tale. We don't think too hard about Snow White's value system. We just accept that she's "pureness incarnate" or whatever. We don't question if the Prince should marry Cinderella based on shoe size. We don't even really question the society itself for being an absolute monarchy despite much of modern culture being founded on hating the idea. Yeah, there are a lot of deconstructions out there but Dragon Ball is hardly one of them.

Fairy tales have been heavily censored (mostly by Disney). The Prince who finds Sleeping Beauty thinks she's so beautiful he rapes her; she only awakens after giving birth to twins from that. Cinderella's sisters hack off their own toes and heels to force their feet into the slipper. Snow White kills her stepmother by forcing her to wear glowing-hot iron shoes and dance until she drops dead. They were explicitly tales of morality and caution and vengeance and all that fun stuff.

Myths and legends are full of horrible, horrible people being complete assholes to each other. Why is it so hard to accept that about Dragonball? The bright pastel colors?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Problem with ChiChi is that we're supposed to side with Goku's views on what's important, his being the main character and all. It makes her look much worse than she actually is. I've already said "You have nothing to prove to those muscleheads, Gohan!" is one of my favorite lines of the Funi Kai dub, because it's her entire conflict of her and her husband's dramatically contrasting values in a sentence-and that she's not being antagonistic for having them.

It's almost like ChiChi is the sensible one and Goku is a stupid twat.

Post/Thread of the year, people. I'm not even being sarcastic.

"All this time I was thinkin' Chi-Chi was off her rocker and Goku had the right idea!" *Slams fist on table* "I feel like a twat!"

[matt0044]

Eh, as parents, they both have their issues (Goku not being very involved and Chi Chi being overly involved) but I wouldn't say they haven't got their pros. They love their son(s) at least. In their own "special" ways.

[sonikku956]

Or... he simply doesn't want another Man touching his wife/fears the outrage Chi-Chi would make at such a thing, which is why he suggested alternatives.

Besides, Elder Kaioshin is still older by Bulma by such a considerable amount so it wouldn't make a difference which woman was selected to be "the one".

Elder Kaioshin never did get what he was promised either...

Or, or... Chichi is too flat-chested. Why doesn't Elder Witch Kaioshin just conjure-up a hooker and call it a day. Who would've thought a god would be so perverted.

That's flatchested?

[sonikku956]

I do believe that Goku catches on that he's not the best husband and father very early on their marriage. He's really not up to the expectations. He knows he doesn't have a job and that really pisses her off.

He does not know anything about this "head of a family" stuff and he just goes along with what Chi-Chi says they are supposed to do. You could say that Goku is a man-child and he needs to be taken care off... and he loves her. Forget the sex, she cooks.

"Yeah Chi Chi, pour that maple syrup all over my breakfast, you beautiful lady that lives in my house." -DBZA

I bet Chichi has to cover herself up in food just to get Goku to pay attention to her when it comes to sex.

[Gokuden]

Or... he simply doesn't want another Man touching his wife/fears the outrage Chi-Chi would make at such a thing, which is why he suggested alternatives.

Besides, Elder Kaioshin is still older by Bulma by such a considerable amount so it wouldn't make a difference which woman was selected to be "the one".

Elder Kaioshin never did get what he was promised either...

Or, or... Chichi is too flat-chested. Why doesn't Elder Witch Kaioshin just conjure-up a hooker and call it a day. Who would've thought a god would be so perverted.

That's flatchested?

Not in her youth, later on, go watch the episode where Goku twirls her around, and throws her, you'll see what I'm talking about. Ironically enough, you can see it in Soups vs Goku.

[TonyTheTiger]

Myths and legends are full of horrible, horrible people being complete assholes to each other. Why is it so hard to accept that about Dragonball? The bright pastel colors?

And the music, and the atmosphere, and the dialogue, and pretty much everything else about it. You genuinely think that Dragon Ball was intentionally designed to be some kind of subversively cynical morality tale like the Grimm classics and that pretty much everything about it that suggests otherwise is just smoke and mirrors? I'd say you'd be better off accusing Toriyama of simply not realizing the fridge logic implications of what he was putting out as opposed to crediting him with crafting such an amazingly subtle commentary about the characters' ethics.

At most I can see Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation being triggered by what was essentially a tragic childhood with #16's death simply being the last straw. But other than that, it seems like the overall story is pretty optimistic, at least the author seems to intend for us to interpret it that way. I highly doubt that much of it was written with the idea of "let's hope the audience sees through the cheerful and optimistic overtones and figures out that I'm subtly implying that Goku is a horrible person and this is a crapsack world that demonstrates the cyclical nature of horrible parenting." Goku gets called out a few times by characters who are more level headed but I just can't see that as the standard by which we're meant to view him in total. If we do view him that way in total thanks to the unfortunate implications, so be it. But that's different than what was intended. It's more like a side effect.

I'm all for juxtaposing happy imagery with horrible implications since, if anything, it makes for great comedy. Like I love how Abridged points out just how bad a father Goku is. And I actually think a deconstruction of the many Dragon Ball tropes could be pretty cool, comedic or not. But I really don't see it happening in Dragon Ball itself. After all, it seems like Vegeta's entire purpose is to hit the audience over the head with "See! Goku is doing it right! He is the ideal, not this jerk over here!"

[Gaffer Tape]

What I think happens in the fanbase is a cyclical overreaction. Chichi is commonly called to task for bad parenting usually by young boys who fail to grasp the pressures of parenting and simply see her as a reactionary bitch who won't let the characters have fun/do what they need to do. And while she is certainly portrayed as an almost parody of an overtly strict, education-minded mama, it's obvious her intentions are in the right place.

So then the fans that reacting to this overreaction of Chichi's poor parenting/dirty soul/what have you, counter by throwing Goku under the bus, which has become all the easier with his silly antics turned up to eleven by Team Four Star, saying that HE is the truly terrible parent, who abandons Gohan at the slightest opportunity, doesn't give a rat's ass about Chichi, and is just a completely selfish man-child. And while there are certainly shades of that, that too is quite the overreaction and simplification, although it's somewhat justified. But then again, we don't see any of those first five years or the three years before the Artificial Humans, or the ten years just before the end of the series. A lot of the absences are plot-induced, and it's true that Goku's "I'm a lazy, selfish bastard" Saiyan traits tend to become suddenly played up as the series progresses when he really wasn't so much like that before, but the few times we actually see him with his family, he seems quite loving, quite nurturing, and very much involved.

So neither Goku nor Chichi is a perfect parent, but neither is as bad as the other makes them out to be.

[Gyt Kaliba]

That's a pretty fair summation of it all Gaffer Tape. I don't really have anything that could top that, but I would like to add that, the ultimate piece of evidence that shows that they couldn't have been too bad in the end is that Gohan certainly turned out to be a pretty-adjusted person. Despite all the crap that happened in his life, from such an early age, he turns out to be a completely normal guy.

...A completely normal guy who can destroy planets and dresses up as a superhero in his free time...but that aside I mean.

[TonyTheTiger]

What I think happens in the fanbase is a cyclical overreaction. Chichi is commonly called to task for bad parenting usually by young boys who fail to grasp the pressures of parenting and simply see her as a reactionary bitch who won't let the characters have fun/do what they need to do. And while she is certainly portrayed as an almost parody of an overtly strict, education-minded mama, it's obvious her intentions are in the right place.

It boils down to the audience simply not being shown the importance of that angle within the story. Think about it, how much time does Dragon Ball really spend on the average person and "ordinary" problems? Even Gohan's time in high school is cut sadly short. Meanwhile, whenever Goku points out that the world is in danger we're actually shown the implications of it.

So our perception is skewed to begin with. We know Goku has a point because we see it actually unfold. We know the ramifications if Gohan doesn't participate. As for Chi Chi, we more or less have to associate her concerns with our "real world" justifications since we don't actually see the sacrifice that comes from Gohan not studying (or even what comes from sending a child into battle since it's rarely brought up). I think the audience would be more sympathetic to Chi Chi if Gohan were actually going to school from the start (as opposed to just sitting at home with a random pile of books) and we saw the actual sacrifices he was making by being pulled away from his friends and classmates. Kind of like how in Spider-Man we can sympathize with Peter Parker's many sacrifices because we actually see what they are.

This is why I don't think Dragon Ball is supposed to be that subversive. If it were then we'd get a hell of a lot more information about just why Gohan's life is complete shit (as it would be in the real world). Because we're never really given the opportunity to see that, I can only assume we're not meant to really think about it and we're more or less supposed to take Goku's word at face value with Chi Chi being a comic foil who is obsessed with "ordinary" things in decidedly not ordinary situations, which is actually a long standing comedy routine.

[DBZAOTA482]

I do believe that Goku catches on that he's not the best husband and father very early on their marriage. He's really not up to the expectations. He knows he doesn't have a job and that really pisses her off.

He does not know anything about this "head of a family" stuff and he just goes along with what Chi-Chi says they are supposed to do. You could say that Goku is a man-child and he needs to be taken care off... and he loves her. Forget the sex, she cooks.

"Yeah Chi Chi, pour that maple syrup all over my breakfast, you beautiful lady that lives in my house." -DBZA

I bet Chichi has to cover herself up in food just to get Goku to pay attention to her when it comes to sex.

Goku might accidentally kill Chi-Chi considering he's not exactly the most reserved eater. Chi-Chi needs a real man, like Raditz or Tullece.

[Rocketman]

And the music, and the atmosphere, and the dialogue, and pretty much everything else about it. You genuinely think that Dragon Ball was intentionally designed to be some kind of subversively cynical morality tale like the Grimm classics and that pretty much everything about it that suggests otherwise is just smoke and mirrors?

No. Dragonball isn't subversively cynical, it's baldfaced cynical.

Piccolo kidnaps and abuses a child to brainwash him.
Gohan, the subject of that abuse, develops Stockholm Syndrome and sees the guy who beat him until his eye swelled shut to be more loving than his own mother.
Goku sacrifices billions of people for his selfish desires without a thought.

These things aren't hidden. They're not subtext. They are the events of the story that you and others look at and then decide is a goofy happy tale because it has upbeat music.

[mattymoron]

And the music, and the atmosphere, and the dialogue, and pretty much everything else about it. You genuinely think that Dragon Ball was intentionally designed to be some kind of subversively cynical morality tale like the Grimm classics and that pretty much everything about it that suggests otherwise is just smoke and mirrors?

No. Dragonball isn't subversively cynical, it's baldfaced cynical.

Piccolo kidnaps and abuses a child to brainwash him.
Gohan, the subject of that abuse, develops Stockholm Syndrome and sees the guy who beat him until his eye swelled shut to be more loving than his own mother.
Goku sacrifices billions of people for his selfish desires without a thought.

These things aren't hidden. They're not subtext. They are the events of the story that you and others look at and then decide is a goofy happy tale because it has upbeat music.

But, I mean, you're deliberately misrepresenting the thematic content of the show. You could apply that logic to most any show and make it seem really super fucked up. Dragon Ball is a goofy happy tale, regardless of the up-beat music, and regardless of how ridiculous the events become when filtered through a cynical "real-life" lens like that.

[soulnova]

I do believe that Goku catches on that he's not the best husband and father very early on their marriage. He's really not up to the expectations. He knows he doesn't have a job and that really pisses her off.

He does not know anything about this "head of a family" stuff and he just goes along with what Chi-Chi says they are supposed to do. You could say that Goku is a man-child and he needs to be taken care off... and he loves her. Forget the sex, she cooks.

"Yeah Chi Chi, pour that maple syrup all over my breakfast, you beautiful lady that lives in my house." -DBZA

I bet Chichi has to cover herself up in food just to get Goku to pay attention to her when it comes to sex.

Goku might accidentally kill Chi-Chi considering he's not exactly the most reserved eater. Chi-Chi needs a real man, like Raditz or Tullece.

I guess Tullece strikes me as most likely to play as "Kakarot" with Chi-Chi just for the fun of it.

[Rocketman]

But, I mean, you're deliberately misrepresenting the thematic content of the show. You could apply that logic to most any show and make it seem really super fucked up. Dragon Ball is a goofy happy tale, regardless of the up-beat music, and regardless of how ridiculous the events become when filtered through a cynical "real-life" lens like that.

It's not a filter, that's the fun part. Piccolo outright says he's going to twist Gohan to be like him. Bulma calls Goku out on his selfishness re: Gero.

[TonyTheTiger]

But that's only a half truth. Piccolo may have said he would make Gohan like him but he didn't. In fact it was the other way around. As much as Bulma calls Goku out, in the end everything does work out. I don't see how a story that constantly demonstrates villains becoming good guys and heroes who always save the world and repair the damage left from their battles can be intentionally cynical.

[Rocketman]

But that's only a half truth. Piccolo may have said he would make Gohan like him but he didn't. In fact it was the other way around. As much as Bulma calls Goku out, in the end everything does work out. I don't see how a story that constantly demonstrates villains becoming good guys and heroes who always save the world and repair the damage left from their battles can be intentionally cynical.

The people Gero kills are not revived.