Bad sound quality for Japanese DB/DBZ

[kei17]

One of you guys posted this comparision video ("over 8000")...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqEzK6lTsYw

...and after I heard that, I was even more upset because it made me realize how much I was missing. I noticed sound effects in the original broadcast audio that I completely glazed over in the Dragon Box version! Listen to the part where Vegeta takes his scouter off and crushes it. You hear: clatter, POP, sizzle, shatter. I didn't even notice the shattering glass sound in the Dragon Box version! Not because it wasn't there, but because it was buried. And I wasn't listening harder during the original version, it was just much clearer and easier to hear. When I listen to the Dragon Boxes (or blue bricks) I am constantly trying to ignore the noise. As someone who has put a lot of effort into mixing his own audio for maximum clarity, this kind of drives me nuts.

I've uploaded a raw PCM clip (24bit/96kHz) of that scene for the comparison sake: https://box.yahoo.co.jp/guest/viewer?si ... ype=detail

This still is not the best source, though. TV recordings that were directly recorded off Fuji TV are in much higher quality than the Betamax recordings that I currently have, which were recorded off a local TV channel named Tokai TV that relays Fuji TV's shows in the Tokai region. To reduce noise, the high frequencies in the audio signal got cut through the relaying processes.

For example, here are two audio clips from the same scene: the recap on DBZ episode 5. You can hear some obvious differences between them.

Tokai TV
Fuji TV

[Pretorious]

You can visit here to learn about the audio issue. I hope you find this useful. The credit is all Kei's; I am only the translator. http://animepast.net/Crisis/Translation/Translation.htm

This is awesome, but I have a couple of questions:

1. The audio samples do not work for me. The player doesn't even display properly. Is this just me or do they need to be fixed?
2. Could you put some contact information (emails) for someone at Toei who we could pester about this? I want to help!

It never bothered me. They're mono, recorded a very, very long time ago. There are times when the picture quality is bad and it matches the bad audio. But to me, I was never bothered by it. I just look at it as a time piece. I don't pretend it's a real modern show. Otherwise, I'd constantly be bothered by the animation.

This isn't intended to sound snarky, so I apologize if it does, but please take five minutes out of your day to look at my post on what mono audio actually is and why "mono" has nothing whatsoever to do with "bad quality" sound. That explanation is 8 posts above your own and starts "If you are confused about the difference between stereo and mono..." I think you will find it educational.

Mono means "one." It does not mean "bad quality."

Monocle = An eyeglass for one eye
Monopoly = One company that dominates an industry.
Monophonic sound (the "mono" you refer to) = Audio designed for one channel. One channel meaning one speaker. This means if you have more than one speaker, they all play the exact same sounds (or rather, receive the same signal; the sound you hear depends on the capabilities of each speaker).

Also, "a very, very long time ago"? Dang. We are talking about audio recorded in the '80s and '90s! The 1990s! This was not exactly the phonograph era! There are tons of excellent, clear audio recordings from before then, even. Listen to a Pink Floyd album from the '70s, for example. And there are even home releases of anime series older than Dragon Ball that sound much clearer, as others have pointed out. The problem is not that the '80s and '90s were a primitive age for recorded audio, or even that the Dragon Ball audio degraded; the problem is that Toei threw away the hi-fidelity audio that actually existed for Dragon Ball.

That said, I understand that there are some people who aren't bothered by the lo-fi audio on the DVDs (more power to them), but I think the people who are bothered are bothered a lot. To me, the quality of audio we have sounds utterly unprofessional. It sounds like a bootleg!

Tokai TV
Fuji TV

Kei, these are such a tease of what could have been.
I listened to my Dragon Box version and those two versions, and the Tokai even is a good step up from the Dragon Box. I synced your two versions to the Dragon Box video, too. I would probably be satisfied with a home release that included the Tokai version, but the Fuji one is amazing and really brought the show to life! It is as big as the difference between Blu-Ray and VHS visuals to me. Is there someone out there who has the Fuji version of all of DB/Z/GT on tape?

Also, in those youtube comparison clips, are we hearing the Fuji version or the Tokai?

[kei17]

Is there someone out there who has the Fuji version of all of DB/Z/GT on tape?

I know one person, but he is very stubborn that he won't lend me his tapes without Toei's permission. Of course the righ holders never say yes to borrowing and lending TV recordings.

Also, in those youtube comparison clips, are we hearing the Fuji version or the Tokai?

The Tokai TV version. I've got only DBZ episodes 5, 51, TV special 1, and some random episodes from the Android arc that were recoded off Fuji TV.

[Pretorious]

I know one person, but he is very stubborn that he won't lend me his tapes without Toei's permission.

Does Toei have a copy of his tapes? It seems like at some point, years down the road, Toei might eventually release an HD version of Dragon Ball. Do you think so? If this happens, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't use his tapes (or tapes like his) to get the best quality audio.

It's frustrating, because the solution is right there in front of Toei, but it's up to them whether or not they will use it.

[TheGreatness25]

lol I have no problems with proper education in mono, I was just explaining the aspects of the audio. And if you're watching it on surround sound, yeah there is a difference.

[Pretorious]

And if you're watching it on surround sound, yeah there is a difference.

Well, true, a good sound system will always sound better than a janky one.

[AnimeMaakuo]

.

[Pretorious]

You're joking, right? Since when did Toei start caring about audio? We're talking about a company who literally threw away the masters. I mean... dude... ;p.

Well, I think it's a bit much to say they didn't care about the audio. Why would they make a good quality version in the first place if they didn't care? I think they threw it away because it was practical. It took up too much space and storage space costs money. Look at it from their point of view. They are a business before anything.

[superrayman3]

I think they threw it away because it was practical. It took up too much space and storage space costs money. Look at it from their point of view. They are a business before anything.

While it's true that cinetape masters do take up room and it is understandable why Toei wanted to cut the cost of storage for business reasons, at the same time logically you would think they would've made a proper backup of each episode's audio whether it be psychical or digital in case they ever needed them for a home release I mean it's not that hard to do is it?

[eledoremassis02]

Didn't BBC have a similar practice? Except they threw out the entire masters of shows, which is why a lot of the old BBC shows are now really hard to find. Now imagine if TOEI did that

[Puto]

I think they threw it away because it was practical. It took up too much space and storage space costs money. Look at it from their point of view. They are a business before anything.

While it's true that cinetape masters do take up room and it is understandable why Toei wanted to cut the cost of storage for business reasons, at the same time logically you would think they would've made a proper backup of each episode's audio whether it be psychical or digital in case they ever needed them for a home release I mean it's not that hard to do is it?

Digital? We're talking about the early 90s here. A time when all computers could do audio-wise was PC speaker sounds.

I don't think that was much of an option :P

[Pretorious]

While it's true that cinetape masters do take up room and it is understandable why Toei wanted to cut the cost of storage for business reasons, at the same time logically you would think they would've made a proper backup of each episode's audio whether it be psychical or digital in case they ever needed them for a home release I mean it's not that hard to do is it?

Then they would have three versions of the audio. Even if they could save some space by putting it in a different, smaller format, the labor and materials in doing that would cost them money, too. I guess it made more sense for them to just use the audio on the film. Also massive digital storage wasn't common at that time.

That makes me wonder though, how big is this cinetape stuff? Is it as big as a film reel? Kei, do you know?

Didn't BBC have a similar practice? Except they threw out the entire masters of shows, which is why a lot of the old BBC shows are now really hard to find. Now imagine if TOEI did that

That's a great point. The first part of Dr. Who is gone forever, right? Even though I am one of the people who complains about the audio, I am totally grateful for the Dragon Boxes. I think they're awesome! Miles away from the fansubs I used to watch! But I also think they can and should be improved upon for the next home release, assuming there is one.

[eledoremassis02]

That's a great point. The first part of Dr. Who is gone forever, right? Even though I am one of the people who complains about the audio, I am totally grateful for the Dragon Boxes. I think they're awesome! Miles away from the fansubs I used to watch! But I also think they can and should be improved upon for the next home release, assuming there is one.

I totally agree with you. There are higher quality audio available for all of Z so TOEI should defiantly take the change. I think if someone had the first part of Dr. Who then BBC would jump all over them However, from what I hear, TOEI doesnt seem too interested..

[Gaffer Tape]

It just goes to show how, as much as we complain about this situation, the '80s and '90s were totally different than the "golden age" of television. Dr. Who (and most early television) is lost now because there was no concept of the profitability of reruns back then. It simply didn't exist as a concept at first. You created a television show to be aired, its format was made to be sustained long enough to make that airing, and once it was aired, it had served its purpose and no longer needed to take up space existing in lieu of the next new thing. So, sure, the original audio was thrown out to conserve space (still due to the idea that the initial airing was what mattered most), but it's a far cry from what it had been.

[superrayman3]

Then they would have three versions of the audio. Even if they could save some space by putting it in a different, smaller format, the labor and materials in doing that would cost them money, too.

Well yeah it would cost them money but it probably wouldn't cost nearly as much as storing big bulky audio masters, personally I also blame the moronic decision (be it the higher ups at Toei or Fuji TV) to not release the series on any home video format during it's initial Japanese airing as another factor of the original broadcast audio being almost lost forever, because had the series had a home release during the original series run the audio masters would've been at least somewhat faithfully preserved and Toei could have went back and used the audio from those for the Dragon Box's now the only remaining traces of the original broadcast audio are on home recordings of the series and fansub tapes sourced from the original broadcast and fansubs can sometimes be less than stellar when it comes to the audio (at least some of mine are like that).

I guess it made more sense for them to just use the audio on the film.

I guess your right though the quality suffered greatly because of it.

Also massive digital storage wasn't common at that time.

Which is why I said either physical or digital just in case digital wasn't common.

That makes me wonder though, how big is this cinetape stuff? Is it as big as a film reel? Kei, do you know?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... pe#p294829 This should give you a general idea on how big cinetape is.

[Pretorious]

However, from what I hear, TOEI doesnt seem too interested..

Why would they not be interested? Because not enough people are demanding it? I mean, in the event that they do eventually release the series in HD, it would be crazy not to upgrade the audio too.

Wouldn't it be funny if there were a way Funimation could bypass Toei and buy the original broadcast VHS/betas themselves and resume their Blu-rays with superior audio? But I know that's not gonna happen.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... pe#p294829 This should give you a general idea on how big cinetape is.

I still can't tell because there isn't anything next to the tape in the picture to compare it to. I mean, it's not a big deal to know, I guess; I'm just curious. If it turns out they're actually pretty small...that would be frustrating.

[eledoremassis02]

However, from what I hear, TOEI doesnt seem too interested..

Why would they not be interested? Because not enough people are demanding it? I mean, in the event that they do eventually release the series in HD, it would be crazy not to upgrade the audio too.

Wouldn't it be funny if there were a way Funimation could bypass Toei and buy the original broadcast VHS/betas themselves and resume their Blu-rays with superior audio? But I know that's not gonna happen.

I think TOEI figures that people are already buying their DVD's and I would assume they assume that most people aren't even aware of the audio differences (though I should not assume) so why bother?. I guess it comes down to, do they feel like editing, syncing all new audio together as this would cost money. I would figure it's kinda like over here and how we have many shows not on DVD or even VHS that people want and have made petitions too but the companies still refuse to release, for one reason or another.

I think FUNimation would get a word from TOEI if they did that

[kei17]

Does Toei have a copy of his tapes?

No. He said I would need Toei's permission because lending your TV recordings to others actually is half-illegal. It's not that Toei has his tapes and I need to ask them.

Digital? We're talking about the early 90s here. A time when all computers could do audio-wise was PC speaker sounds.

D-1 and D-2 were invented in the '80s, and they were already widely used among the broadcasting scene in the early '90s. Toei Animation started using digital video tapes in the late '90s, which was much later than other anime studios. All GT episodes are stored on both 16mm film reels and D-2 tapes, so the original audio of GT is still officially available (but they didn't use it for the GT Dbox though).

That makes me wonder though, how big is this cinetape stuff? Is it as big as a film reel? Kei, do you know?

It's just as big as 16mm film reels. Cinetapes have perforations on both sides and they allow to sync film footage very easily.

I think if someone had the first part of Dr. Who then BBC would jump all over them However, from what I hear, TOEI doesnt seem too interested..

It's a bit different story, though. BBC do not have the entire show itself, but Toei do have the footage and the audio that are pretty serviceable.

[eledoremassis02]

It's a bit different story, though. BBC do not have the entire show itself, but Toei do have the footage and the audio that are pretty serviceable.

Good point. Seems like TOEI feels that the audio they have is acceptable and there is no need to upgrade... Didnt know about the GT Dbox audio either.

I think TV recordings have the same issue here. I remember there was a big fuss over DVR's, VHS also had the same issue. I remember hearing that they wanted to make recording shows on VHS illegal.

[Pretorious]

Does Toei have a copy of his tapes?

No. He said I would need Toei's permission because lending your TV recordings to others actually is half-illegal. It's not that Toei has his tapes and I need to ask them.

I guess what I was really trying to ask is, does Toei have any interest in obtaining his (or anyone else's) tapes for their own archive or future home releases? Do they want the better quality audio?

Seems like TOEI feels that the audio they have is acceptable and there is no need to upgrade.

I agree, it does seem that way, but I guess I feel like they could be persuaded if enough people demanded it, or maybe their perspective will shift when DVD becomes obsolete and they want to re-release Dragon Ball (if that happens).

Or maybe the Dragon Box project was already underway or completed when they realized these tapes with superior audio existed, so they didn't have a chance to integrate the good audio into that release? This is the scenario I hope is true. Does anyone know if this is the case?

so the original audio of GT is still officially available (but they didn't use it for the GT Dbox though).

Why?